General ICs Q&A Thread

[swordgard]

Yeah it's not a straw man or ad hominem lol. But, it is using facts with out context. Context is extremely important when talking about who beat who especially when you're using it as evidence for your argument.


For example, I beat ESAM last weekend.

That sounds pretty good doesn't it?


In actuality it was in a wifi tournament amd ESAM used DK, Pikachu, and Samus and I didn't beat his pikachu. The context shows that my win against him actually means nothing.

It is ad hominem.

An ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), also known as argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise.[1] The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy

He never said he was good at the matchup as far as I know, he said the matchup simply was in our favor. Not all matchups beliefs are based around personal experience. Furthermore, its not because its in our favor that he should autowin. I believe its probably around 6-4 when played right, doesn't mean I could never lose the matchup.


Toobusytocare, I am pretty sure if you ask gnes he will tell you its at best even and at worst around 6-4 for ics. My question is, how many of you actually secondary/main diddy? Most people don't seem to realize just how much playing as diddy allows you to become adept at using the bananas.

ADHD says he ***** ice climbers when he plays well, could be johns, but I will let him have the benefit of the doubt. However, did he ever take into account the fact he might simply be better than them? Or that they weren't aware of all their options vs diddy. I have seen ninjalink vs ADHD, he most Diddy related tricks with ics, but none of the more complicated ics desynch that revolve around Diddy's tricks. TBH I am really saddened ADHD wasn't at Apex, I wish I could have played him to see how he does vs ics : (

 

[00-Zero]

I actually secondary/main Diddy and I think it's about even. True enough, we have a bunch of things we can do with a banana, including a guaranteed grab setup. However, it doesn't change the fact that if he gets in with a banana, he can just as easily go on to ****** us until Nana is gone, and then you. I see it as pretty even.

 

[GimR]

Yeah so if we're arguing about something and I say well you're wrong because you're being a jerk. That's ad Hominem. You being a jerk has nothing to do with the argument but for some reason I think it takes away validity of your argument which is a logical fallacy. Your tone of voice or mannerisms have nothing to do with the argument you're putting forth but it can make it really difficult to argue with you.

From what I remember, all he said was "Cheese you lost to a Diddy, so much for it being in our favor". I can see why you thought it was ad hominem but not really because it actually did have to do with the argument because it shows that he thinks Cheese is a top Icies player thus him losing to a diddy player shows some insight into the match up. It's still a really bad argument though, it has no context and nothing really bbacking it up. I just don't see it as ad hominem, but I can see that it may have been.

 

[swordgard]

I actually secondary/main Diddy and I think it's about even. True enough, we have a bunch of things we can do with a banana, including a guaranteed grab setup. However, it doesn't change the fact that if he gets in with a banana, he can just as easily go on to ****** us until Nana is gone, and then you. I see it as pretty even.

I really fail to see how does diddy "gets in and go on to ****** us until nana is gone". Diddy has very few ways to keep the comboes going if you use bananas/ice blocks/blizz to disrupt his flow. And bthrow to spike on nana is easy to avoid overall if you run>shield+jump while holding R towards her.

 

[Teh Future]

diddy ***** us lol.

i dont think swordgard realizes that banana control doesnt matter if diddy can kill nana every time we trip

 

[swordgard]

diddy ***** us lol.

i dont think swordgard realizes that banana control doesnt matter if diddy can kill nana every time we trip

I really fail to see how that happens tbh.

I don't think you realize that if nana dies its most often because you messed up. Even if she trips you can save her.


Also, you shouldn't trip most of the time on anything, bananas are very very easy to avoid/catch.

 

[Teh Future]

yes bananas are easy to avoid. thats why diddy knong is low tire

 

[GimR]

Future, you're arguments lack substance. You make broad statements and try to make the person you're arguing look like an idiot

 

[Teh Future]

i mean, he said bananas are easy to avoid. he makes himself look like an idiot. i didnt make any broad statements... thats literally what he said. I mean i guess if bananas were easy to avoid i would agree but they aren't no matter how good your banana control is compared to he person your playing.

As far as "diddy can kill nana every time you trip" i think is pretty self explanatory. if you guys have played any diddy that knows the matchup nana gets spiked ALL THE TIME.

whenever i say anything about this matchup people just think im bad with bananas. thats not true at all. Ive played a lot of diddy kongs. I went 2-0 in sets against diddy kong this weekend. diddys dont understand how to gimp us correctly bu when they do i think the matchup gets very bad for us.

i also wish the "t" key worked better on my keyboard

 

[Teh Future]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLQLhkc0fyg

personally i want to know why swordgard gets hit by something 11 imes in one stock when its very very easy o avoid

 

[Rubberbandman]

Future, you're arguments lack substance. You make broad statements and try to make the person you're arguing look like an idiot

You're trying to explain logic to a troll. Tsk tsk, Gimr.

 

[toobusytocare]

i mean, he said bananas are easy to avoid. he makes himself look like an idiot. i didnt make any broad statements... thats literally what he said. I mean i guess if bananas were easy to avoid i would agree but they aren't no matter how good your banana control is compared to he person your playing.

As far as "diddy can kill nana every time you trip" i think is pretty self explanatory. if you guys have played any diddy that knows the matchup nana gets spiked ALL THE TIME.

whenever i say anything about this matchup people just think im bad with bananas. thats not true at all. Ive played a lot of diddy kongs. I went 2-0 in sets against diddy kong this weekend. diddys dont understand how to gimp us correctly bu when they do i think the matchup gets very bad for us.

i also wish the "t" key worked better on my keyboard

THANK YOU!
this is what i've been saying

 

[ch33s3]

Most of the time you can make Nana DI back on stage, or pull her back with an up/side special and steal her away from the spike. I don't think THAT is the worst problem in the matchup.

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

as soon as Diddy gets inside you, diddy has his way with the climbers often throwing them everywhere about the stage in my experiance

 

[swordgard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLQLhkc0fyg

personally i want to know why swordgard gets hit by something 11 imes in one stock when its very very easy o avoid

Please, look for even older videos to argue about the current metagame. That was my second tournament, with little to no diddy experience >.> I only learned to playas diddy in the last 6 months, but it helped me tremendously. Now if you stopped being a troll for just one second, maybe you could realize that the goal is not to prove the other person wrong, but rather to find what is closest to the truth. Sadly, I guess you will most probably never grasp that notion.



Now I have seen ninjalink beat ADHD more than once, iirc meep did it too before, I have personally beaten gnes despite hylian saying it was really hard because he knew the matchup. TBH besides felix, what good diddy has left to be beaten? I find it hard to believe that nana gets spiked every so often, diddy has no way of approaching ice climbers without involving giving him a chance to get the banana in the process. I would say "catch it on reaction", but the truth is that to stop diddy from ever being to approach safely is to mix up between ice blocks to stop bananas, z-catching them, shield angling to prevent shield poke, blizz where the banana is on the ground, jab/tilt to create a wall, and instant throwing bananas downwards to keep them.

 

[ConF1ictz]

can i have any help against wolf and snake?

 

[sauc3]

can i have any help against wolf and snake?

WOLF

1. get wolf off stage using grabs (CG->spike),shouldnt be hard to get a grab,
2. grab ledge when they recover, if he doesnt die, grab him again and repeat step 1.

SNAKE

if they're clever, hard to grab, and grenade wise, this is a hella hard matchup.
s-ave your finishers till you KNOW they kill.
-be very good at the cg,

WHEN YOU HAVE MOMENTUM: dthrow->dthrow->spike then dtilt if they come near the stage, and mixup between upairs and pivot grabs when they come down high (watch out for b reversals, snakes love this and usually roll afterwards, which is punishable).

WHEN YOU'RE GETTING CAMPED: gl, lol, be patient, wait for them to make a mistake/create an opening and punish with grabs, HARD!

as far as i know, you're gunna get camped, and its annoying. pick up DDD?

 

[DeLux]

WOLF

1. get wolf off stage using grabs (CG->spike),shouldnt be hard to get a grab,
2. grab ledge when they recover, if he doesnt die, grab him again and repeat step 1.

SNAKE

if they're clever, hard to grab, and grenade wise, this is a hella hard matchup.
s-ave your finishers till you KNOW they kill.
-be very good at the cg,

WHEN YOU HAVE MOMENTUM: dthrow->dthrow->spike then dtilt if they come near the stage, and mixup between upairs and pivot grabs when they come down high (watch out for b reversals, snakes love this and usually roll afterwards, which is punishable).

WHEN YOU'RE GETTING CAMPED: gl, lol, be patient, wait for them to make a mistake/create an opening and punish with grabs, HARD!

as far as i know, you're gunna get camped, and its annoying. pick up DDD?

Wolf
1. Wrong. You have a 0-DEATH MOVE! Why wouldn't you utilize it?
2. Wrong, See Step 1.


Snake
True, but saying grenadewise is kind of redundant given that nobody else has grenades.

When you have momentum: Wrong. See Wolf subpoint 1.
When you're getting camped: Wrong. Either DSG aggro or throw the nades back. imo. It's hard to "wait for a mistake" if they're camping you from a distance. And luck isn't real.

 

[toobusytocare]

that advice vs wolf is the worst smash advice ive ever seen

you could just say that for any character
"Lol, how do i beat metaknight?"
"LOLZ just grab him rofl!"

but yeah lux said it well too

 

[ADHD]

Please, look for even older videos to argue about the current metagame. That was my second tournament, with little to no diddy experience >.> I only learned to playas diddy in the last 6 months, but it helped me tremendously. Now if you stopped being a troll for just one second, maybe you could realize that the goal is not to prove the other person wrong, but rather to find what is closest to the truth. Sadly, I guess you will most probably never grasp that notion.



Now I have seen ninjalink beat ADHD more than once, iirc meep did it too before, I have personally beaten gnes despite hylian saying it was really hard because he knew the matchup. TBH besides felix, what good diddy has left to be beaten? I find it hard to believe that nana gets spiked every so often, diddy has no way of approaching ice climbers without involving giving him a chance to get the banana in the process. I would say "catch it on reaction", but the truth is that to stop diddy from ever being to approach safely is to mix up between ice blocks to stop bananas, z-catching them, shield angling to prevent shield poke, blizz where the banana is on the ground, jab/tilt to create a wall, and instant throwing bananas downwards to keep them.

What Ice Climber player has yet to be undefeated vs Diddy Kong?

The only way Ice Climbers can win is if they capitalize on Diddy Kong's mistake. They will never force an opening for a grab with both ICs there to 0-death him.

 

[Orion*]

Swordgard beat Gnes at Apex.

Ninj@link has shown me multiple replays of Wyatt losing to his climbers. =/

its nl LMAO what do you expect him to show you? matches he lost

yes bananas are easy to avoid. thats why diddy knong is low tire

 

[ADHD]

The week after he didn't do so hot.. actually it was straight up miserable and I can say that because I got trashed the first week.

 

[RATED]

WOLF



as far as i know, you're gunna get camped, and its annoying. pick up DDD?

nah, you can't just beat a Snake mainer with a sub par 2ndarie DDD. You have to be actually good with him and know him to beat a good snake player. IMO just learn the Matchup and learn more about your main instead of just picking up DDD for Snake only.

unless you want to and have the time to do so then you can pick up him. Since Almost every snake knows and understand the Snake vs DDD MU.

 

[B0NK]

D3 hasn't been a snake counter since 2008, as far as I have seen it's even.

 

[Sieguest]

Which Ice Climber player has yet to be defeated vs Diddy Kong?

mah d00d
The real question should be which Diddy player has yet to be defeated vs. ICs? :3

Oh, and I decided to fix the errors you made in asking your question. :3

 

[ConF1ictz]

Wolf
1. Wrong. You have a 0-DEATH MOVE! Why wouldn't you utilize it?
2. Wrong, See Step 1.


Snake
True, but saying grenadewise is kind of redundant given that nobody else has grenades.

When you have momentum: Wrong. See Wolf subpoint 1.
When you're getting camped: Wrong. Either DSG aggro or throw the nades back. imo. It's hard to "wait for a mistake" if they're camping you from a distance. And luck isn't real.

whats the 0-death move?, im sorry for not knowing, and lmao at your advice...btw is there any trick to getting the bthrow to nana grab, because i got all the other chaingrabs pretty good except that one

 

[Sieguest]

whats the 0-death move?, im sorry for not knowing, and lmao at your advice...btw is there any trick to getting the bthrow to nana grab, because i got all the other chaingrabs pretty good except that one

The 0-death move is the chaingrab. xD

Something I just started trying myself is just after I input the throw I press shield and then grab. Unless it's a heavyweight, then I just kind of do a fast "1-2-3" to myself.

 

[GimR]

What Diddy Kong player has yet to be undefeated vs Ice Climbers?

It can go both ways. Has Lain ever lost to Diddy. I personally don't know. I'm coming for you this weekend though ADHD. If I can make it that far in the bracket

 

[Teh Future]

lain got 3 stocked last time he played ADHD at the showdown.

actually i think i haven't lost to any Diddys LOL though i haven't played any really good ones.

 

[Teh Future]

Please, look for even older videos to argue about the current metagame. That was my second tournament, with little to no diddy experience >.> I only learned to playas diddy in the last 6 months, but it helped me tremendously. Now if you stopped being a troll for just one second, maybe you could realize that the goal is not to prove the other person wrong, but rather to find what is closest to the truth. Sadly, I guess you will most probably never grasp that notion.

i just did that because you said bananas are bad... which is dumb in any context ever.

ICs can def mess up Diddy Kong, i just feel like Diddy has extremely safe options against us whenever he has a banana. idk maybe I am wrong and its more even.

I need to play against better diddys before i can say for sure so whateva. I dont think you can say ICs win tho having played against only Gnes. pretty sure gnes says he hates the matchup and when he got inerviewed by mlg he said he didnt want to run into meep. adhd seems a lot better at the matchup and even tho he has lost i think he has a winning record against everyone who plays ICs against him

 

[Rubberbandman]

So yeah, after seeing one of 9B's vids, I thought of anther way to desynch with a banana without even throwing it at the opponent. I'll explain more in skype when I get home.

Banana's for icies is WAYYYY too good.

 

[swordgard]

i just did that because you said bananas are bad... which is dumb in any context ever.

ICs can def mess up Diddy Kong, i just feel like Diddy has extremely safe options against us whenever he has a banana. idk maybe I am wrong and its more even.

Or you are wrong and its in our favor. Stop doing false dichotomy!


Either way, I wish I played ADHD since he claims hes simply that much better at the matchup. TBH I just don't think anyone right now really uses bananas the way they should(well except diddy mains obviously).

 

[Teh Future]

as adhd would put it:

thats some 08 shiit lol

 

[EverAlert]

future u bad at trolling

 

[Today]

Is icies vs. Snake really that bad? Or is that 2008 info?

 

[Sieguest]

From what I've seen recently, I don't think it's really that bad anymore. o.o IMO I still think it's kind of Snake's favor, but I don't think it's anything like 30:70 Snake. I mainly attribute it to ICs just learning to play smarter and expanding their game along with Nana actually making it out of Kindergarten.

 

[Teh Future]

i dont think anyone has said its 70-30 LOL.

snake either wins or its even, IC players have different opinions about it.

hard for ICs to play for sure though

 

[Sieguest]

i dont think anyone has said its 70-30 LOL.

That's the ratio that went down in the MU thread.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Is icies vs. Snake really that bad? Or is that 2008 info?

Completely outdated.

 

[RATED]

i dont think anyone has said its 70-30 LOL.

snake either wins or its even, IC players have different opinions about it.

hard for ICs to play for sure though

if it hard to play for ICs then is not even. Even though ICs are "hard" to play at top level play so that is like for almost every MU of them.

But IMO the matchup is 55-45 Snake. Sometimes I lean to 6-4 Snake but ICs can win if played correctly.