dean.
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Lylat is amazing
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General Discussion & Character Rankings
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
C~Dog
Smash Champion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFXf_DqdfG8
Holy crap guys we'd better ban this fast, Luigi Team is broken as
Holy crap guys we'd better ban this fast, Luigi Team is broken as
FD sucks.
PS2 > PS1/FD
Tibor just mad emo because he hasn't been embraced by the love yet.
PS2 > PS1/FD
Tibor just mad emo because he hasn't been embraced by the love yet.
Silfa
Smash Ace
Just because something is flat doesn't mean it's neutral.
The camping that occurs on PS1 generally doesn't benefit the one doing the camping unless they're trying to time some one out. Camping on FD definitely does give the advantage to the character doing the camping through damage, stage control and generally controlling the pace/flow of the match in general. This can occur on any stage obviously, but the length of FD and the lack of platforms makes the task of approaching a great deal more difficult. While the camping that happens on PS1 is harder to counter, it does very little to outcome of the match compared to FD.
About the the PS1 vs. lylat edges, the difference between the two is that the PS1 ledges, while incredibly annoying and bad, are static. The lylat ledges can change position mid recovery. Having a knowledge on how your character recovers does little in helping you know when and to where the ledges will change.
The camping that occurs on PS1 generally doesn't benefit the one doing the camping unless they're trying to time some one out. Camping on FD definitely does give the advantage to the character doing the camping through damage, stage control and generally controlling the pace/flow of the match in general. This can occur on any stage obviously, but the length of FD and the lack of platforms makes the task of approaching a great deal more difficult. While the camping that happens on PS1 is harder to counter, it does very little to outcome of the match compared to FD.
About the the PS1 vs. lylat edges, the difference between the two is that the PS1 ledges, while incredibly annoying and bad, are static. The lylat ledges can change position mid recovery. Having a knowledge on how your character recovers does little in helping you know when and to where the ledges will change.
I still think that there is valid reason why Lylat and PS1 are better starters than FD.
I think Lylat is a great stage that helps many characters find some form of even ground in the starter stages. PS1 also does this.
The problem with FD is that most of the time it benefits one character an obvious amount more than the other and gets striked. Who actually ends up on FD as the starter stage? The answer is no-one, because we don't use at as a neutral anymore.
Edit: Silfa is spot on. Especially with the edges; regardless of your character knowledge, Lylat can tilt unexpectedly, however, for a lot of characters this still does not affect them, and when this applies to both sides Lylat is often the starter you end up on.
I agree with shaya, FD is bad.
But PS1 > PS2
PS2 would be so great for
though :D
I think Lylat is a great stage that helps many characters find some form of even ground in the starter stages. PS1 also does this.
The problem with FD is that most of the time it benefits one character an obvious amount more than the other and gets striked. Who actually ends up on FD as the starter stage? The answer is no-one, because we don't use at as a neutral anymore.
Edit: Silfa is spot on. Especially with the edges; regardless of your character knowledge, Lylat can tilt unexpectedly, however, for a lot of characters this still does not affect them, and when this applies to both sides Lylat is often the starter you end up on.
I agree with shaya, FD is bad.
But PS1 > PS2
PS2 would be so great for
though :D
swordsaint
Smash Master
Lylats edges don't tip fast enough to affect your recovery from when you press ^/> B to when you get there.
Remastered
Smash Lord
It's very easy to camp on lylat imo, and the edge tilting is not overly bad but can mean a difference in stock if your character has a lack luster recovery/sweetspot to edge where the stage moves away from you.
P 1 just gives a mix to the neutral stages that is necessary i think, ie teching the floor, windmill, deep level outs on either side meaning if you get gimped in doubles you can be saved by your team mate. D3 is broken against walls, but no one should be foolish enough to go anywhere near the wall to be grabbed in the first place. Wall of pain combos etc are good too. The beauty of it all is that you're just going to strike the stages you arn't happy playing on anyway, so there is no real need to change them.
If all else fails, just make it 3 starters, SV, BF and Yoshi's and save the worrying.
P 1 just gives a mix to the neutral stages that is necessary i think, ie teching the floor, windmill, deep level outs on either side meaning if you get gimped in doubles you can be saved by your team mate. D3 is broken against walls, but no one should be foolish enough to go anywhere near the wall to be grabbed in the first place. Wall of pain combos etc are good too. The beauty of it all is that you're just going to strike the stages you arn't happy playing on anyway, so there is no real need to change them.
If all else fails, just make it 3 starters, SV, BF and Yoshi's and save the worrying.
It's happened to me a lot with multiple characters... including GaW a few times when I go low to get a gimp, at the usual threshold of my UpB range, and the stage has tipped up and I have been unable to reach the ledge. This is a fact; It has happened.
SO obviously they can tip fast enough scoot.
Your statement is false.
SO obviously they can tip fast enough scoot.
Your statement is false.
swordsaint
Smash Master
It tipped fast enough because you didn't give any room for error.
It doesn't tip fast enough to completely negate recovery, but if you're gonna try and be fancy pants about how 'perfect' you can recover you're gonna get screwed. Give your recovery some leeway and Lylat won't break you.
Saying it's the ledges fault is wrong. You just didn't take in to account that it might tip up slightly, and you went down too far. Adjusting to stage properties is normal. Why should adjusting to a ledge property be any different to using different kinds of platforms?
It doesn't tip fast enough to completely negate recovery, but if you're gonna try and be fancy pants about how 'perfect' you can recover you're gonna get screwed. Give your recovery some leeway and Lylat won't break you.
Saying it's the ledges fault is wrong. You just didn't take in to account that it might tip up slightly, and you went down too far. Adjusting to stage properties is normal. Why should adjusting to a ledge property be any different to using different kinds of platforms?
^Much better post. I approve.
Although I will say that this can also happen to characters when they get spiked or half-gimped (if you know what i mean) that can still recover but the stage goes up and they can't recover up from the spike anymore or they get fully-gimped. This mainly applies to characters with slower recoveries, and therefore they may like this stage less.
Make no mistake, I wholeheartedly support this stage being one of the 5 neutrals. A lot of characters can find even ground here or it makes a stage that characters who benefit from the normal array of neutrals (having 3 or more of the 5 neutrals beneficial for them, such as Diddy Kong who likes Smashville, FD and PS1) something more balanced for the opponent, by giving them a stage they have to CP and taking away FD so that now Diddy Kong will get Yoshis Island or Battlefield most likely, where the opposing character still doesnt get a great advantage through stage but at least Diddy Kong doesn't get access to one of his legitimate Counterpicks as a starter. And that's just Diddy Kong as he is the easiest example; this applies to many characters that benefit from stages like Smashville and FD, so Lylat is very much welcome as a preference over FD.
And just to note for no reason, despite the fact it is far more risky for me to play an offensive offstage game as I mentioned previously, coz I can die very easily when I push my characters offstage limits, I still love Lylat as a Counterpick* so that I can play offensively offstage, because even though it's more risky for me, it's even MORE more risky for my opponents, because my recovery is real good
*it tends to get striked against me a lot, and when it doesn't theres normally good reason so I strike it instead
Leisha
Top Tier Pillow
I have that problem, only my rob is decent. The rest of my characters are hopeless.
xXArrowXx
Smash Champion
ps1 is fun but i guess u could circle camp abit and abit of plank. and get a timeout.. ill try it one time when i what to annoy the crap out of someone. depends on mu tho.
same with battlefield @_@
but i agree fd is pretty bad... XD
ps2 is silly. trend mills, ice trips, air time.
same with battlefield @_@
but i agree fd is pretty bad... XD
ps2 is silly. trend mills, ice trips, air time.
if diddy is the main reason you want fd moved to starter, then strike it. done. easy.
fd is a non-moving, level playing field, which doesn't massively favour or disadvantage any members of the cast (diddy is the one exception, and just strike it). gw, wario and mk aren't bad there, they just aren't as good as they would be on other stages. lylat, on the other hand, gives big favours to mk, snake, marth and pit, while disadavantaging the likes of ics, lucas and falco (i know scoot disagrees with this, but its what i reckon). lylat is gonna be favouring your already **** characters, while fd evens things out. and there is much less gay on fd, also.
fd is a non-moving, level playing field, which doesn't massively favour or disadvantage any members of the cast (diddy is the one exception, and just strike it). gw, wario and mk aren't bad there, they just aren't as good as they would be on other stages. lylat, on the other hand, gives big favours to mk, snake, marth and pit, while disadavantaging the likes of ics, lucas and falco (i know scoot disagrees with this, but its what i reckon). lylat is gonna be favouring your already **** characters, while fd evens things out. and there is much less gay on fd, also.
I stopped reading there
and besides, diddy likes sv more :D
M
+9999999999
And I remember Scoot once saying Falco likes BF more.
Who's so broken on FD again? =S
Who's so broken on FD again? =S
Attila, Diddy Kong was an example. FD gives other characters 3 potential stages that they would Counterpick. If there is 3 potential counterpick stages for a character available as starters, then that is unnacceptable for that wouldn't be close to a starter.
Excluding MK, if you have Lylat, Battlefield, PS1, Yoshis Island, and Smashville, no character has 3 stages that are **** for them available. And If I am wrong here, I am VERY sure at least that the success rate of not getting some form of CP as a first stage would be higher with Lylat > FD.
Against Marth you strike Lylat and Battlefield, and the other 3 stages aren't particularly amazing for him.
Against GaW you strike Lylat and Battlefield (unless ur Marth, lol), sometimes YI depending on your character, and the other stages are pretty average for GaW. YI is average for GaW too, pretty terrible, but Tibs strikes it sometimes I have no idea why so I just put that in.
Against Diddy you strike SV and PS1 and BF and YI arent amazing for Diddy but they wouldn't be stages you'd CP him to really (BF maybe if your Marth idk?)
Against Snake you strike SV and Lylat and you normally end up on PS1 or YI, and whilst he still does well on those stage, considering his place on the tier list that's pretty reasonable, and neither of them are common CPs for a Snake (PS1 is in certain match ups so you'll end up on YI, but depending who you are PS1 may be the go)
Those are 4 top tier examples of characters with very different styles of play.
None of them allow a character to get a stage that would actually COUNTERPICK the other in some way as a starter.
With FD, it is possible for Diddy to get a counterpick as a starter.
It is possible for Snake to get a counterpick as a starter in some MU's
It is possible for GaW to get a counterpick as a starter and also to be counterpicked in some MU's
It is possible for Marth to get a counterpick as a starter and also to be counterpicked in some MU's
You see your going about it all wrong Attila. It doesnt matter if you have characters ****** hardcore on ONE stage of the starters or getting owned completely and having to strike ONE stage of the starters every time. Because you get two strikes. But this doesnt mean we're just going to put 75m in as a starter and say "if it doesnt benefit your character strike it". We're trying to get 5 stages where in as many MUs as possible, neither character will get a stage that their character is terrible or on, and neither character will get a stage that they would use against their opponent as a Counterpick. And FD doesnt help us do that at all. It creates heaps of oppurtunities for some characters, and limits characters like GaW in the Snake MU (just sticking to what I know here people) coz I'm striking Smashville and Lylat or coz it's good for Snake against me, and then I also need to strike FD because it's bad for me when I'm playing Snake (although it's pretty neat stage against MK...)
Now I don't know much about this PS2 business but to me Battlefield Lylat Smashville Yoshi's and PS1 are the most decent set of 5 starters available.
Excluding MK, if you have Lylat, Battlefield, PS1, Yoshis Island, and Smashville, no character has 3 stages that are **** for them available. And If I am wrong here, I am VERY sure at least that the success rate of not getting some form of CP as a first stage would be higher with Lylat > FD.
Against Marth you strike Lylat and Battlefield, and the other 3 stages aren't particularly amazing for him.
Against GaW you strike Lylat and Battlefield (unless ur Marth, lol), sometimes YI depending on your character, and the other stages are pretty average for GaW. YI is average for GaW too, pretty terrible, but Tibs strikes it sometimes I have no idea why so I just put that in.
Against Diddy you strike SV and PS1 and BF and YI arent amazing for Diddy but they wouldn't be stages you'd CP him to really (BF maybe if your Marth idk?)
Against Snake you strike SV and Lylat and you normally end up on PS1 or YI, and whilst he still does well on those stage, considering his place on the tier list that's pretty reasonable, and neither of them are common CPs for a Snake (PS1 is in certain match ups so you'll end up on YI, but depending who you are PS1 may be the go)
Those are 4 top tier examples of characters with very different styles of play.
None of them allow a character to get a stage that would actually COUNTERPICK the other in some way as a starter.
With FD, it is possible for Diddy to get a counterpick as a starter.
It is possible for Snake to get a counterpick as a starter in some MU's
It is possible for GaW to get a counterpick as a starter and also to be counterpicked in some MU's
It is possible for Marth to get a counterpick as a starter and also to be counterpicked in some MU's
You see your going about it all wrong Attila. It doesnt matter if you have characters ****** hardcore on ONE stage of the starters or getting owned completely and having to strike ONE stage of the starters every time. Because you get two strikes. But this doesnt mean we're just going to put 75m in as a starter and say "if it doesnt benefit your character strike it". We're trying to get 5 stages where in as many MUs as possible, neither character will get a stage that their character is terrible or on, and neither character will get a stage that they would use against their opponent as a Counterpick. And FD doesnt help us do that at all. It creates heaps of oppurtunities for some characters, and limits characters like GaW in the Snake MU (just sticking to what I know here people) coz I'm striking Smashville and Lylat or coz it's good for Snake against me, and then I also need to strike FD because it's bad for me when I'm playing Snake (although it's pretty neat stage against MK...)
Now I don't know much about this PS2 business but to me Battlefield Lylat Smashville Yoshi's and PS1 are the most decent set of 5 starters available.
You haven't seen one of my essays before Apollo?
**** son.
Alas people are a bit foolish to think that poor characters such as Ganondorf and Luigi don't despise final destination.
**** son.
Alas people are a bit foolish to think that poor characters such as Ganondorf and Luigi don't despise final destination.
Zxv
Smash Lord
My two cents:
Lylat: verrrrrrrybad
Yoshi's: bad.
Everything else I'm fine with.
Honestly, I want to try a 7 or 9 stage striking system with Castle Seige, Delfino, Halberd and all that. Looks like fun imo.
@ Attila
Lylat affects Peach probably more than any other character in the game. Platforms are at my exact float height, effectively nullfiying 80% of my approach, the platforms offer no advantage (actually, a rather large disadvantage) to Peach's turnip game and the tilting makes ground-floating impossible. Also, the edges are awkward and unfavourable.
Lylat: verrrrrrrybad
Yoshi's: bad.
Everything else I'm fine with.
Honestly, I want to try a 7 or 9 stage striking system with Castle Seige, Delfino, Halberd and all that. Looks like fun imo.
@ Attila
Lylat affects Peach probably more than any other character in the game. Platforms are at my exact float height, effectively nullfiying 80% of my approach, the platforms offer no advantage (actually, a rather large disadvantage) to Peach's turnip game and the tilting makes ground-floating impossible. Also, the edges are awkward and unfavourable.
M
+9999999999
I love Zxv's ideas. 7 stages is so legit.
swordsaint
Smash Master
despite Falco liking BF over FD
if FD were still in a starter stage list of 5
FD, BF, SV
strike 2
i get a counterpick no matter what you do. Characters with good projectile games in general do.
easiest way to say it without posting a wall like splice did.
if FD were still in a starter stage list of 5
FD, BF, SV
strike 2
i get a counterpick no matter what you do. Characters with good projectile games in general do.
easiest way to say it without posting a wall like splice did.
It only takes like 6 minutes to write when I know what I'm going to write and it all just happens. Sorry guys
PS: Good example and post Scoot
Yes, its only because of diddy kong.
But I hear you Luigi mains.
I HEAR YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
But I hear you Luigi mains.
I HEAR YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Hater
Smash Ace
Luigis mansion should be a cp for all the luigi mains !
swordsaint
Smash Master
marth loves sv.
diddy loves bf.
marth and diddy are gonna get **** stages anyway. it just also means mk also always gets his **** stage too.
I already mentioned Snake loves PS1 Attila but at least only in some MUs
Diddy and Marth do fine on BF and SV respectively
But they arent Counterpicks for them. Marth has far better CP options than SV in quite a few MU's.
And Diddy isnt going to counterpick BF lol...
Diddy and Marth do fine on BF and SV respectively
But they arent Counterpicks for them. Marth has far better CP options than SV in quite a few MU's.
And Diddy isnt going to counterpick BF lol...
and sv is also a very common cp for marth...
No-one has said otherwise...
@Attila: Against which characters is SV a recommended counterpick?
sssssnnnnnnnaaaaaakkkkkkeeeee
C~Dog
Smash Champion
Splice maybe you haven't heard, but attila is the best at Super Theory Bros.