ask earl or shaya.
they've got some obsession with platform canceling there.
they've got some obsession with platform canceling there.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
General Discussion & Character Rankings
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
someone say platform cancelling?
its the sex.
its the sex.
told you so.
dean.
.
Platform cancelling's alright, but I'm still unconvinced Smashville's a good stage for Marth.
'xcept against Snake, but Battlefield isn't as amazing against Snake so that's a fair trade
Meh, maybe it's my innate hatred of Smashville that leads me to this conclusion
'xcept against Snake, but Battlefield isn't as amazing against Snake so that's a fair trade
Meh, maybe it's my innate hatred of Smashville that leads me to this conclusion
Remastered
Smash Lord
Luigi ***** Diddy on flat stages. No platform traps, no link to banana combos because of his bs traction, and easier for him to approach. Hence why I favour FD, but then again it is hard to CP Luigi unless by character.is there some kind of munchkins card for when soemone says something dumb?
I like FD except against people who can projectile camp and run away to the other side, ie space animals/toon link.
The way things work to even-out play for the rest of the cast, works completely opposite for Luigi the odd ball. For example, SV for Luigi against Marth is a good stage, apart from the horrible character MU.
swordsaint
Smash Master
I was talking to hater when he mentioned Luigi's Mansion.
C~Dog
Smash Champion
Anyone who saw Mr R's combo vid knows that Smashville is **** because of platform cancelling.
swordsaint
Smash Master
It's only my opinion, but I don't think the way Mr R used platform cancelling to **** proves anything. He's just a good player.
Platform cancelling is just a bunch of mindgames people will get used to. only really legit thing from platform cancelling imo is platform cancel > grab.
M
+9999999999
As Sonic, platform cancel > Downsmash is really useful for KO's, given his usually poor ability to get them.
Assuming a good few others would also benefit from a wider range of ko options.
Platform cancelling isn't really enough to make it a CP unless Marth is against a character that already does badly on Smashville...
Anyway I kicked the **** out of Shaya on SV and on BF he totalled me 100 times harder, SV does not compare Lylat or BF as a CP for Marth imo. I know if I hadn't have striked Lylat I would have got owned another 100 times harder again than on BF lol.
I'm not sure if people are getting "fares well on" mixed up with "CP" a little bit here but whatever.
Anyway I kicked the **** out of Shaya on SV and on BF he totalled me 100 times harder, SV does not compare Lylat or BF as a CP for Marth imo. I know if I hadn't have striked Lylat I would have got owned another 100 times harder again than on BF lol.
I'm not sure if people are getting "fares well on" mixed up with "CP" a little bit here but whatever.
I didn't really use platform cancelling at all on that SV match though.
And you kicked the **** out of me?
I was winning like most of the match and got uber gayed by a dsmash tech roll (not from a dthrow) to die at like 80% 2nd stock, and then you turned it around.
And you kicked the **** out of me?
I was winning like most of the match and got uber gayed by a dsmash tech roll (not from a dthrow) to die at like 80% 2nd stock, and then you turned it around.
swordsaint
Smash Master
I'm not sure if Splice is getting "turned it around" mixed up with "kicked the **** out of" a little bit here but whatever.
So you would have won if you platform cancelled? Did you get many oppurtunities to do it where it would have been effective?
It shows at least that without platform cancelling, the stage has little to no merits (in general, im sure in specific match ups it would help. Smashville is not a preferred stage for GaW by any means and it is not like I have an advantage there in any aspect)
Can platform cancelling really turn a stage that is subpar for Marth into one of his best Counterpicks? That just seems stupid, especially since a lot of other characters can do it too anyway.
I'm not even sure what you mean by a Dsmash tech roll.
I was winning the whole SV match and felt comfortable the whole time. I recall feeling this way.
I felt confident that I would win for the whole match, and didn't doubt this. I remember I got a low % kill on the 2nd stock which secured the match and then I could mess around a bit more and camp less.
On Battlefield I didn't feel confident at any point, even when I gained a decent lead on 2nd stock, I did not feel able to maintain it and was not able to.
On Frigate Orpheon I felt comfortable and safe the whole match as well, although that was MK, but oh well.
No Johns.
Pete278
Smash Lord
Doubting your chances of winning will cause the same result as sandbagging.
Zero fair call, maybe not subpar, but like it's average, I see no real merits for Marth on it and so he wouldn't think of striking it but in general I don't see why it would be a common CP. I'm sure there are MU's where he could CP it but when we're talking starters it is not an all-round stage that Marth has more advantages than usual, such as BF and Lylat. I'm sure he's gonna get SV against some characters that might do badly against Marth or something idk but in general it's not gonna be as bad as Diddy getting SV or PS1 which I'm pretty sure he doesn't care who he plays against on those stages, as long as it isnt a campy Wario/MK he will get an unfair advantage for a starter stage.
Also, I disagree Pete. Whilst I was not confident that I would be able to get past Marths attacks and platform control on Battlefield, I was still confident in my abilities so I looked for as many oppurtunities to punish Shaya or get safe as I could, but even when I had a lead it was very hard for me to hold off his approaches and I was unable to be. I still tried but I did not think that I could do it if he played fast which he did. I put just as much effort into winning as I did the first match.
Also, I disagree Pete. Whilst I was not confident that I would be able to get past Marths attacks and platform control on Battlefield, I was still confident in my abilities so I looked for as many oppurtunities to punish Shaya or get safe as I could, but even when I had a lead it was very hard for me to hold off his approaches and I was unable to be. I still tried but I did not think that I could do it if he played fast which he did. I put just as much effort into winning as I did the first match.
i think you're speaking a little close to your character, splice. i, for instance, counterpick marths to bf out of preference, because i seem to do well there. sv seems significantly more difficult, even though its where i commonly play other mus freely (like gw, for instance). in general, im pretty sure marth mains like sv, and cp it fairly regularly.
shaya, feel free to interject if im wrong.
shaya, feel free to interject if im wrong.
swordsaint
Smash Master
i also like playing against shaya on bf
From my character I know what the benefits of other characters are and what they like, and I know what hinders them, not solely against GaW. I merely use him as example because most of the matches I play feature GaW and most of the matches I watch I am playing in so... 
I find your statement hard to understand Attila
I know that lots of platforms help Snake for stuff but I thought the moving platform on smashville was very beneficial for him.
And I thought platforms helped Marth a lot whereas I honestly can't think of why Smashville would help him apart from platform cancel.
From that I see no reason why BF is any better for Snake against Marth than SV tbh. I can see Marth taking Snake to SV if he wanted a stage that was simple, but still decent for Marth, rather than a CP, but really I wouldn't say it's any better than BF in the MU. It could just be you, or I could be wrong.
Sure Scoot, but is BF preferable over SV? Really?
Also, Scoot, with Lylat Cruise and not FD, are the two stages Shaya strikes against you Battlefield and Smashville? This way I do not think you get a CP against Marth as a starter.
I find your statement hard to understand Attila
I know that lots of platforms help Snake for stuff but I thought the moving platform on smashville was very beneficial for him.
And I thought platforms helped Marth a lot whereas I honestly can't think of why Smashville would help him apart from platform cancel.
From that I see no reason why BF is any better for Snake against Marth than SV tbh. I can see Marth taking Snake to SV if he wanted a stage that was simple, but still decent for Marth, rather than a CP, but really I wouldn't say it's any better than BF in the MU. It could just be you, or I could be wrong.
Sure Scoot, but is BF preferable over SV? Really?
Also, Scoot, with Lylat Cruise and not FD, are the two stages Shaya strikes against you Battlefield and Smashville? This way I do not think you get a CP against Marth as a starter.
this is really, really dependent on the mu, how you're planning to setup to counter the mu, and how badly you're gonna get comboed on those platforms. the sv platform doesnt give snake very much (a moving c4, 17 frames or whatever), in the sense that it doesn't help stop ground approaches, he can't camp on it like others can, he has to dj to get on top of it, and it does very little to help his recovery. i suppose, in short, other characters (such as marth) benefit more from it than he does.
falco prefers almost everyone on bf. he recovers well there, strings at low percents, and has enough room to camp. sv doesn't really help in any of these areas, but its still a good stage for him.
swordsaint
Smash Master
but splice, shaya wants BF as well, its where we usually play, you're right in saying if he struck bf and sv we'd play on stadium
but...I would think that helps me more, because when we have to play through to game 5 it is sometimes one of the stages I pick.
remember, ps1 promotes camping. I get a lot of opportunities, iirc ps1's ceiling is SLIGHTLY lower as well, earlier upsmash kos.
and yes, i do prefer bf > sv
bf is bigger, and falco is very good with platforms. sv is smaller meaning marth can pressure me a bit easier.
and what attila, said, platforms help falcos recovery mixups.
but...I would think that helps me more, because when we have to play through to game 5 it is sometimes one of the stages I pick.
remember, ps1 promotes camping. I get a lot of opportunities, iirc ps1's ceiling is SLIGHTLY lower as well, earlier upsmash kos.
and yes, i do prefer bf > sv
bf is bigger, and falco is very good with platforms. sv is smaller meaning marth can pressure me a bit easier.
and what attila, said, platforms help falcos recovery mixups.
I know that BF is good for Falco and I know why.
I thought that SV was still considered better though and also I'm not sure if the elaborate platform setup on battlefield can make it easier for other characters to approach him, which is one of Falcos merits: being hard to approach.
On the topic of SV, I understand Attila. That makes sense. Except the recovery part, I find SV can benefit Snakes recovery if the platform is there. And if it isnt, it's still no better than BF.
But I don't understand why BF is good for you. You are going to get combo'd badly on BF by Marth.
I know you can get a more elaborate set up to stop ground approaches and whilst this is very good I am unsure if Marths usual platform benefits outweigh this or not.
What stages would you strike against Marth?
What do you think he would strike against you?
considering both Lylat and/or FD, for both questions, if either was legal.
EDIT
@Scoot: PS1 is still a better result than what having FD would result in, at least. It just means one more stage to benefit Falco then benefit Marth. If you both end up on BF and consider that even then I think the starters are good for the MU then. If he does not like BF (although you have said he does) then you would end up on PS1, which I would think does give Falco more benefits than Marth, which is why I think he'd strike this over BF or SV.
Also it's always hard to consider sets of 5 for characters that like the neutrals as CPs, if you can't play on stages you have already won on. But I don't think it really changes that much on what makes a good set of starters, coz in the end the starter stage is just as even... one char might just have a better CP selection later on =/
I understand now why you prefer BF over SV for Falco in its entirety. That makes a lot of sense to me now.
I thought that SV was still considered better though and also I'm not sure if the elaborate platform setup on battlefield can make it easier for other characters to approach him, which is one of Falcos merits: being hard to approach.
On the topic of SV, I understand Attila. That makes sense. Except the recovery part, I find SV can benefit Snakes recovery if the platform is there. And if it isnt, it's still no better than BF.
But I don't understand why BF is good for you. You are going to get combo'd badly on BF by Marth.
I know you can get a more elaborate set up to stop ground approaches and whilst this is very good I am unsure if Marths usual platform benefits outweigh this or not.
What stages would you strike against Marth?
What do you think he would strike against you?
considering both Lylat and/or FD, for both questions, if either was legal.
EDIT
@Scoot: PS1 is still a better result than what having FD would result in, at least. It just means one more stage to benefit Falco then benefit Marth. If you both end up on BF and consider that even then I think the starters are good for the MU then. If he does not like BF (although you have said he does) then you would end up on PS1, which I would think does give Falco more benefits than Marth, which is why I think he'd strike this over BF or SV.
Also it's always hard to consider sets of 5 for characters that like the neutrals as CPs, if you can't play on stages you have already won on. But I don't think it really changes that much on what makes a good set of starters, coz in the end the starter stage is just as even... one char might just have a better CP selection later on =/
I understand now why you prefer BF over SV for Falco in its entirety. That makes a lot of sense to me now.
tbh i'd be completely in on a smashville/battlefield only metagame.
swordsaint
Smash Master
Hey shaya.
I agree.
every set we ever play lets only play on those stages.
I agree.
every set we ever play lets only play on those stages.
remembering that snake gets extra lag out of cypher (10 frames or something) unless he airdodges in the ground or nade lands, you'll quickly see he can't land there very easily, espc when you consider how many characters that can kill him with a fair, since he's right next to the killzone and DOESN'T live very well sideways. also consider that he's completely vulnerable from below there, and can't defend himself from anyone coming up on an angle or from directly below. in other words, the platform is not safe at all for him.
when you think about nade setups, you have to most commonly think where you're opponent will be approaching from, and where you can set things up to stop them from approaching. i don't want to go into this in depth, because quite frankly, its something no one has openly discussed, and is key to my seemingly odd cps. but think about this, and you might begin to understand the method to my madness.
against marth, brinstar needs to be banned. the platforms function like the sv platform (close to killzone and unsafe for snake), and marth is going to benefit from the small size and lengthened hitboxes much more than snake ever will. that and there is no room to zone correctly.
marth bans halberd against snake. still not totally sure why; everyone bans this against me, so i never really got to test the stage out in tournies.
for neutrals, i dont want sv, and probs not yi, just because those stages aren't helping with my setups, and yi makes edgeguarding extra difficult. ps1 has plenty of potential for setups, so i rarely strike it, i like bf as mentioned before, and lylat is a solid stage for snake in any context (similar to bf, doesn't hinder snake's recovery, hides c4s, etc). if fd wasn't included, i wouldn't want to play there but i probably wouldn't strike it; marth's tend not to want to play there, either.
isn't that what already happens?
swordsaint
Smash Master
i think its like, one tournament
BF BF BF
then the next is like
BF/SV > Yoshi's > BF/SV
BF BF BF
then the next is like
BF/SV > Yoshi's > BF/SV
cbf multiquote sorry attila but
paragraph one: Yeh but recovery options aren't really any better on Battlefield.
paragraph two: I have considered that and I have acknowledged that BF allows better nade setups in the Marth MU than Smashville does. I am unsure if that is enough to beat the things about this stage that naturally benefit Marth regardless.
Paragraph three: Sorry Attila, I meant out of the starter stages, btw I think it's just coz Marths Upwards kills aren't anything special whereas Snakes are and Halberd has a low ceiling so I guess it's for that reason alone that they ban it i assume. But yeah I meant out of the neutrals
Paragraph four: Which you have covered here. I imagine Marth could end up on any of the 3 stages left after you strike SV and YI, tbh. SO that seems good. With FD included it's kind of silly that since neither of you want to play there, the person striking it is at some slight disadvantage in making a strike for the both of you. It doesn't seem to help in this MU as a starter, then.
paragraph one: Yeh but recovery options aren't really any better on Battlefield.
paragraph two: I have considered that and I have acknowledged that BF allows better nade setups in the Marth MU than Smashville does. I am unsure if that is enough to beat the things about this stage that naturally benefit Marth regardless.
Paragraph three: Sorry Attila, I meant out of the starter stages, btw I think it's just coz Marths Upwards kills aren't anything special whereas Snakes are and Halberd has a low ceiling so I guess it's for that reason alone that they ban it i assume. But yeah I meant out of the neutrals
Paragraph four: Which you have covered here. I imagine Marth could end up on any of the 3 stages left after you strike SV and YI, tbh. SO that seems good. With FD included it's kind of silly that since neither of you want to play there, the person striking it is at some slight disadvantage in making a strike for the both of you. It doesn't seem to help in this MU as a starter, then.
swordsaint
Smash Master
idk what kind of impression i've left but I thought i'd say im against fd coming back as a neutrl.
C~Dog
Smash Champion
Just a thought.
If 'most US tourneys' have FD as a standard starter, then why does the BBR Stagelist (which essentially represents the US metagame) have FD as a sometimes starter? Surely if the majority of US tourneys used FD, then this would be reflected in the BR recommended stagelist.
If 'most US tourneys' have FD as a standard starter, then why does the BBR Stagelist (which essentially represents the US metagame) have FD as a sometimes starter? Surely if the majority of US tourneys used FD, then this would be reflected in the BR recommended stagelist.
C~Dog
Smash Champion
No please, go on. This should be interesting.
bbr want us to play on port town. 'nuff said.