Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[Sukai]

Oh this is so true, but this might apply to any character if played good, doesn't it?

Not the top tiers.
A good player there makes people believe they deserve their placement.

 

[K 2]

So we're agreeing on 65:35, yes?

Yes, I agree with that ratio.

But I said it firs--
Whatever.
Yeah, 63:53....
And a good Fox makes people scratch their heads about his tier placement.

63+53=116? Umm...you guys are terrible at math XD

 

[Tero.]

Not the top tiers.
A good player there makes people believe they deserve their placement.

true dat.

Anyway 65:35 and we allready have some good input, so maybe we should move on?

 

[Neb]

We should do PT next.

 

[cutter]

But I said it firs--
Whatever.
Yeah, 63:53....
And a good Fox makes people scratch their heads about his tier placement.

The problem with Fox IMO is the fact that Falco absolutely and completely invalidates him.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

But I said it too...
That was my first and only ratio.

But I said it firs--

I said it before you.
^________ ^;

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I wasn't ignorant of you guys. I was agreeing with you. I also wanted to make a pun about Mr. Game & Watch being flat.

Anyway, PT next would be fun.

 

[-Mars-]

The problem with Fox IMO is the fact that Falco absolutely and completely invalidates him.

Really? Lol this is news to me.

 

[Sukai]

I said it before you.
^________ ^;

Eh--um---...uh........
Where the hell is the blushing emoticon!?

 

[Tero.]

Yeah let's do PT, I've tons of experience against PT lol

 

[Cyan_]

I have a lot of experience against Foxes. I play with a really good one.

They'll try something called shine stalling, where they shine in the air to fall delay falling, then they will drop down with dair. I just upB ooS.

Nair destroys him, I like CPing them to BF and FO. RC works too, I guess.

Foxcopter or w/e is called is when you double jump with fair and it lifts him up higher than usual. They do that a lot to recover, so watch out.

When Fox needs to recover up, and they're right below the edge, run off the ledge and use bair. It's really nice.

 

[Gishnak]

The problem with Fox IMO is the fact that Falco absolutely and completely invalidates him.

Err, you mean pikachu? The falco fox matchup is no worse than 6:4 falco's favor. Even the fox boards say it's 55:45.

 

[Neb]

I think he's referring to the whole - "Why play Fox when there's Falco?"

 

[cutter]

I think he's referring to the whole - "Why play Fox when there's Falco?"

Exactly. What's the point of playing Fox when Falco does what Fox does so much better?

Just like in Melee. Why play Roy when you can just play Marth?

 

[Conviction]

Why play any other character in the roster when you can play MK? <-- See what I did there?

 

[_Phloat_]

Why play any other character in the roster when you can play MK? <-- See what I did there?

You made a valid point?

 

[DMG]

Why play any other character in the roster when you can play MK? <-- See what I did there?

Because you can play as Wario and camp people for 8 minutes.

Hooray!

Did I win?

 

[Neb]

MK is a jerk.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Meta Knight seems powerful at first, but his third dimension really holds him back. He doesn't even have a turtle!

IDC is pretty crazy though. While doing it Meta Knight is 0d. How broken.

 

[slikvik]

Because you can play as Wario and camp people for 8 minutes.

Hooray!

Did I win?

i ran the timer in friendlies with wario for the first time yesterday. i was so proud

 

[DMG]

i ran the timer in friendlies with wario for the first time yesterday. i was so proud

Lol ****, I don't run out the timer in friendlies. God **** you are colder than me about camping lol.

 

[slikvik]

Lol ****, I don't run out the timer in friendlies. God **** you are colder than me about camping lol.

lol impossible. i already saw your set with razer

a. it was tournament practice/serious friendlies
b. we're only on a 7 min timer...not 8 like you guys
c. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcOIFmXgMqI >_> rofl

 

[DMG]

lol impossible. i already saw your set with razer

a. it was tournament practice/serious friendlies
b. we're only on a 7 min timer...not 8 like you guys
c. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcOIFmXgMqI >_> rofl

1. Ah ok.
2. I WANT A 7 MINUTE TIMER!!! DEAR LORD YES THAT WOULD BE AMAZING lol. I doubt Texas will do that now though, especially since it would benefit me even more than before.
3. F*** I always hate watching that match cause I SD at the beginning and have to make an unnecessary comeback. I also called cold hand johns.

U got me though -_- I camp a lot lol.

 

[Gishnak]

Are we ready to revise some of these match ups yet? More specifically... The Marth/Gdub ratio... :/ Really, only 45/55?

 

[pheX]

I've played against many foxes @ the MLG and EU-MLG.
I think G&W has quite an advantage here. But most players overestimate this advantage. I played very good foxes and I've noticed that it can be very tough to play a good fox.

First of all you need to know that fox is able to spam lasers. The lag of the bucket is to risky, because fox's upsmash is insanely good and fast. You'll be punished quickly. On the other hand the bucket is very weak considering the effort that it takes to get it. Of course GW can duck but nontheless gaw will eat many lasers.

The biggest advantage GaW has over Fox is his airgame.
GaW is able to finish fox very quickly. Furthermore GaW has the ability to edgeguard fox very well.

So its pretty much about the approaching. If fox approaches without good spacing he'll get punsihed by a bair or dtilt or whatever. On the other hand gaw shouldnt risk to play too offensive either.

All in all i'd say about 65:35 or 60:40.

 

[Cyan_]

I'd say it's about 6:4. Nair really ***** him, and upB too.

 

[omegablackmage]

Fox: (65/35)

General Matchup:

• Fox has two strong points, racking up damage with lasers and killing early. He also has some basic combos to watch out for that tack on some guaranteed damage.
• Fox doesn't really have a lot of priority or range on many of his attacks. Fsmash probably boasts the longest range, however he moves his body with it, thus he doesn't get disjointed range. Overall his priority/range aren't very good.
• Best kill move by far is his upsmash, you will be killed by this move 90% of the time for sure. Its very strong, very fast, and gw is very light so expect deaths to this my around 90% or a bit higher. Other kill moves are possibly bair, fsmash, dsmash, maybe fair.
• Fox could possibly go for a shine spike, but this doesn't cut through any of gw's aerials, so don't be too concerned with this, if he goes for any aerials offstage, nair. Its likely that they will simply laser spam you off the stage and then hog to an aerial if anything.
• Edgeguarding fox is pretty similar to falco, either try to interrupt him onstage or go for the hog if he drops down. If he drops even further, ff nair his up b and then go for the ledge again. Overall fairs destroy his recovery, so use them well. Also take note that they can use their fair to increase the height of their second jump, which can make it difficult to edgeguard them. Again fairs work off stage, and dtilts work near the ledge.
• Fox's combos are pretty standard, and fit into a lot of situations. Most start with a drill to up tilt, and then finish with an aerial. Take note that the drill can combo into an upsmash at kill percents, so watch out.
• Fox's rolls are pretty good, but can't avoid the dthrow dsmash without teching, so use it sparingly to get a free dsmash. He falls fast, so nair combos very nicely, and he'll have a hard time avoiding up air spam. Watch for sneak illusions to throw you off.

General Strategies:

• Overall they will like to laser spam (bucket three, and then duck and wait for their approach) to rack up damage, get some drill combos in and then look for places to sneak an upsmash in. If you play defensive, they will have a hard time working around the dtilt, so make use of that. The bucket is weak, so its likely they won't be afraid to laser spam.
• This matchup is pretty simply, mainly because their approach to the matchup is simple. If you are overbearing with your pressure, they will have a hard time getting hits in, considering they have no sneak priority or range. They will be forced to shield your hits or move around them and retaliate, and if your spacing is good, neither of these will lead to you getting punished.

Stages:

• Rainbow cruise, Frigate Orpheon, lylat, and delphino are probably good picks. Any of the neutrals are good too.
• If anything avoid low ceilings, but not japes, because of illusion tricks. FD and halberd probably want to be avoided.

 

[xXTACXx]

GaW is a very hard matchup for samus L : only info i can give you that is useful is that we like to run away from you and watch out for our up b, Up B breaks the Key . lulz

 

[-Crews-]

g&w is bottom tier and samus is top...there is no point to use g&w aganist samus cause there is no chance for u to win. *hopes all the g&w's fall for this tactic*

____________________
anyway, basically your small with a bucket and hardcore smashes... that's about all one needs to counter samus lol.

 

[_clinton]

Samus' zair is better then Link's IMO and her camping game can be just as annoying as Link (Missile cancel will for one thing have 2 missiles on the screen at a time...of course the Bair of G&W should protect from that...but just saying)...she has a better recovery then Link as well (Bombs=fun) if that means anything to you guys...of course she has even more trouble killing then Link does as well...

Fsmash
Bair
Charge Shot
Dtilt
Dsmash
Utilt
Dair (somewhat easy to hit with IMO compared to others of it's kind she can just run off the stage and throw it out w/o any real risk to her unlike others of it like Ness, Ganondorf, DK, and Falco for example)

Overall I could see her using these moves to kill you guys with...of course it would be at higher % as well

Samus' air game auto cancels on the ground if that means anything...so she could do things like land an Nair/Fair and go for a Dsmash right away without much of any break...

Overall the match is in G&W's favor overall still of course IMO...but by how much...I don't know maybe 6-4?

 

[Deathcarter]

It is either 65:35 or 60:40 G&W's favor.

Samus has tools to actually space and (pathetically) camp Mr. Game & Watch so those things alone give Samus a chance. Missles are not really meant to overwhelm G-dub, they are supposed to bait reactions from him. If you guys use an aerial to destroy the missle, we can zair you during the animation. If you airdodge it, we can use zair/bair to punish. You guys could shield it, but doing that (unless you can powershield) won't get you any closer to Samus and we could just fire another missle.

G&W cannot space on the ground against Samus too well because her ftilt outranges almost everything he has. IIRC, it can clank with his FSmash. It is almost as fast as his dtilt, almost. Her ftilt range is where G-dub should try to get to however because this is the optimal range for an aerial approach because approaching with a bair from farther away is begging to be zaired.

His bair approach is not as useful against her because of three things:
1. Samus does not have to approach in this matchup so you cannot use that as a brick wall of priority.
2. zair can beat it, obviously.
3. She can actually use her roll while you are using your bair. It outlast most of the bair if not all of it. Now if she tries to roll behind you while you are bairing, you could fastfall it and run over to her while she is still in her roll. I don't know exactly if you can punish it WELL. His running speed won't allow him to chase Samus if she rolls behind him. You might be able to fastfall a bair and as she rolls behind you, turn around and chase her with another bair, but I do not think Samus's roll is that slow. But it is only useful for dodging the bair as that is an attack that G&W commits himself to.

G&W's aerial game OBLITERATES everything about Samus's except for zair. If you can get below her, prefferably from a diagonal angle, she has nothing to combat nair/uair. G&W can juggle her pretty easily thanks to her slow falling speed so use that to your advantage. You can also approach from the air, but you have to watch out for her UpB. Just don't approach her from the front. Speaking of nair, IMO, it is more useful in this matchup than bair. It's animation is much shorter than bair's, it autocancels, and Samus still has nothing to beat it aside from zair. It should be used in this matchup as much as if not more than bair.

It will not be easy for you to edgeguard her since she has SO many options for her recovery. Though G&W wins in this regard since she has nothing to edgeguard him with. Perhaps the main reason why I could see G&W having a 65:35 advantage because he can kill her MUCH more easily than she can kill him. These are my experiences, and I am of the opinion that it is not a **** matchup although G&W does have a sizeable advantage on her.

 

[Throwback]

i tend towards more of an even match-up, just because GW is so slow.

if the samus knows what they are doing they can camp GW very easily. Missile spam to bait rolls (always fun but doesn't work for long), then when GW starts shielding/attacking the missiles samus will chase a HMC with zairs/shielded-dashes into f-tilt range. Also in this match-up samus can easily charge her laser, which does all sorts of nasty things to an opponent's game. Finally, GW's lack of speed, slow roll and long lasting attacks work against him when approaching near bombs, which at first seem useless but can be devastating to ignore (because of the hitstun).

In GW's favor is that he has a major advantage when he is in range, his bucket can cost a stock if a charged shot if predicted, he is extremely difficult if not impossible to spike, has ridiculous power on his smashes etc. So it's certainly not all in Samus' favor. 50/50 is my call.

 

[cutter]

i tend towards more of an even match-up, just because GW is so slow.

Are you serious? GW has excellent running speed, excellent aerial mobility, and a fantastic up B. GW is far from slow.

if the samus knows what they are doing they can camp GW very easily. Missile spam to bait rolls (always fun but doesn't work for long), then when GW starts shielding/attacking the missiles samus will chase a HMC with zairs/shielded-dashes into f-tilt range.

GW's up B puts an end to any kind of camping attempt. It is such an amazing defensive tactic.

GW should not be rolling. AT ALL. GW has the worst roll in the game. You seem to forget his up B allows him to bail out of any bad situation. It is basically GW's dodge.

Also in this match-up samus can easily charge her laser, which does all sorts of nasty things to an opponent's game.

Umm... Oil Panic?

Finally, GW's lack of speed, slow roll and long lasting attacks work against him when approaching near bombs, which at first seem useless but can be devastating to ignore (because of the hitstun).

I just discredited how GW is not slow, and there is no point in rolling with GW when he can just up B out of trouble. Bombs are not as good as you think. They do not detonate with other hitboxes which was a ridiculous nerf from Melee and their damage and hitstun are quite negligable. If you still disagree just test it for yourself.

Samus is able to outrange pretty much everyone with her Zair which is a great asset, but it is not the end all approach. Once GW gets inside Samus's range she will be in big trouble fending off an assault from GW. She is heavy, but GW's smashes will be killing Samus in the early 100s-110s without much problem. Conversely, Samus will have problems killing because her kill moves (Fsmash/Dsmash/Bair/neutral B) are quite weak. Bucket Braking will help GW to survive to crazy percents especially if the blast zones on the stage are big.

This is definately not an even matchup. GW is by far the superior character compared to Samus. I will say 65/35 GW.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't have any experience against Samus at all really, but I'm calling shenanigans on her being even half as good at projectile camping as Link. Samus's projectiles are slower than Link's, linear as opposed to able to go in just about any direction like Link's, don't bounce off shields and remain dangerous like Link's bombs, and don't come back to her ever. How is Samus having two missiles on the screen at once a big deal when Link always has two far more unpredictable projectiles on the screen at once and can go up to three pretty easily? I'm pretty sure just on inspection of her moveset that her silly tether attack (her best move by far) is the only thing that seriously impedes Mr. Game & Watch's approach at all.

 

[Deathcarter]

I don't have any experience against Samus at all really, but I'm calling shenanigans on her being even half as good at projectile camping as Link. Samus's projectiles are slower than Link's, linear as opposed to able to go in just about any direction like Link's, don't bounce off shields and remain dangerous like Link's bombs, and don't come back to her ever. How is Samus having two missiles on the screen at once a big deal when Link always has two far more unpredictable projectiles on the screen at once and can go up to three pretty easily? I'm pretty sure just on inspection of her moveset that her silly tether attack (her best move by far) is the only thing that seriously impedes Mr. Game & Watch's approach at all.

Samus's projectiles are NOT good for camping as they are pathetic. One of their great uses however, is that Samus can follow the homing missles (becaue they are so slow) and can bait a punishment depending on how the opponent reacts. If you use an aerial to destroy the missles, I can zair you while you are suspended in animation. If you airdodge, I can punish you after it ends. If you shield, you are not making any headway towards approaching Samus anyway and I can continue firing missles. The only use charge shot has here is that Samus can set it off very fast. Assuming G-dub cannot cancel a fully charged shot, it will be yet another discouragement from using bair or any other aerial that suspendes you in animation for too long. The bombs however are completely useless.

EDIT: I did some more testing on G&W's priority vs the charge shot. Fair and Nair both beat a fully Charged Shot, but FCS goes through his bair. So like I said in my last post, use more nair, less bair.

 

[Neb]

Just FYI, fsmash and usmash also cancel it out as well.

 

[A2ZOMG]

She only has Z-air on you. She can't land a kill move, and you generally kill her much lower than she kills you. Aside from the Z-air and a random full charge shot (which is HORRIFYINGLY weak for a KO move), your B-air should plow through pretty much everything she has

65/35. I mean she has her zone where things are in her favor, but you have your zone, and you outperform her by a pretty significant margin when you make it there.

 

[Throwback]

Are you serious? GW has excellent running speed, excellent aerial mobility, and a fantastic up B. GW is far from slow.

I stand corrected, GW's run speed is very good.

From my perspective playing against GW feels slow, which I expect is a combination of his lack of a good projectile (I suppose someone will refute that, too), some long-lasting moves and the fact that he is light and hits hard. So when you get hit, you gain distance, when you hit GW you gain distance, and he can't pressure you till he gets close - and although fast, his run speed is not up there with MK. So against GW samus has more time to HMC, zair, charge lasers or drop bombs than she does against many other opponents.

GW's up B puts an end to any kind of camping attempt. It is such an amazing defensive tactic.

Not sure how an amazing defensive tactic counters a camping game, perhaps you have mixed this sentence up. UpB to approach is all well and good, but I don't know it offers any major advantage to GW since it gives samus space and time, which is what she thrives on.

In any case, samus isn't much of a camper. Her missiles are used to approach, her zair can't be spammed much because you'll run out of space, and bombs have the same spacing issue as zair. Neutral B doesn't camp well either, due to bucket. Samus is more looking to attack whenever possible.

GW should not be rolling. AT ALL. GW has the worst roll in the game. You seem to forget his up B allows him to bail out of any bad situation. It is basically GW's dodge.

As I said, GW won't roll much, if at all. UpB is great for bailing, good point.

Umm... Oil Panic?

If GW tries to predict the neutral B, Samus will get free hits. If GW plays as normal (ignoring the possibility of CS), he will probably take 26% at some point. Either way, having that charged shot gives samus a boost. Of course, if you can bucket it 3 times then it's a huge problem for Samus. It's a bit of a 2-edged sword but even against GW, I would much rather have B charged than not.

Remember, Samus is not going to shoot the CS when GW has time to react to it.

I just discredited how GW is not slow, and there is no point in rolling with GW when he can just up B out of trouble. Bombs are not as good as you think. They do not detonate with other hitboxes which was a ridiculous nerf from Melee and their damage and hitstun are quite negligable. If you still disagree just test it for yourself.

I counter with 'bombs are not as bad as you think'. Bombs always put an opponent in a disadvantageous situation, as long as they are timed correctly - which is not hard to do. The hitstun is not neglible at all if you are a samus main, it's quite easy to land hits during bomb hitstun. If GW chooses to stay away from the bomb, that's free space for samus to attack with, and now GW is on the defensive.

9% is not neglible damage if I put another %15 on that with a dair. Hell, 9% is more than her regular f-tilt. Moreover, if samus lands a hit during the bomb hitstun (which she will always try to do), you just gave her space and an opportunity to do more damage.

Again, bombs are slightly easier to set up against GW because he falls slowly, he is reasonably wide (I think), and his aerials stay out when he lands (except nair).

Samus is able to outrange pretty much everyone with her Zair which is a great asset, but it is not the end all approach. Once GW gets inside Samus's range she will be in big trouble fending off an assault from GW. She is heavy, but GW's smashes will be killing Samus in the early 100s-110s without much problem. Conversely, Samus will have problems killing because her kill moves (Fsmash/Dsmash/Bair/neutral B) are quite weak. Bucket Braking will help GW to survive to crazy percents especially if the blast zones on the stage are big.

I agree Samus dies amazingly early to GW's power. I haven't played against bucket braking, but I guess now there is no more 'glass cannon' GW. Seems like a big advantage to GW.

This is definately not an even matchup. GW is by far the superior character compared to Samus. I will say 65/35 GW.

After your post I agree that GW has the advantage. Don't know about the numbers but 65/35 or 60/40 seems reasonable.

 

[Royta]

Samus boards are also discussing GaW now =)

Topic can be found here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=217233

I'll post my 5 cents later on the day!

 

[n00b]

If Samus tries really hard, she can beat a good Game & Watch.