Neb
Smash Lord
I shouldn't, but I did,
.
-
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Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory
- Thread starter omegablackmage
- Start date
.
Conviction
Human Nature
Neb
Smash Lord
Rebuttals are in bold.
________________________
"As for other ground moves that GW has...honestly, they should never hit a Fox. I understand things happen, and a good player can guess another person out and land it. but in general, they are not good options. Other than that...grab? leads to nothing...at least it shouldn't. dash attack? not so much. really, that's about it. the entire GW strat in this match"
Well, G&W's ground game isn't built for damage development, its for knock out. Saying smashes will never land is sort of senseless, that's like saying Fox will never die. Sure the opponent knows how to avoid these techniques, but that doesn't go to say they will never connect, you have to consider the mistake factor, and the potential these attacks have. Game & Watch's smashes come out in single digit frames (2, 3, and 7) from charge release, and are nearly lagless on block.
DashA isn't so bad in this match-up, if he hits Fox with the ending frames, it becomes safe on block, from which he can retreat with Upb if unsafe. Considering the attack clanks with any of Fox's attacks, and G&W is safe, he can jab, dtilt, utilt, nair, or FH bair/fair. While if it lands, Fox enters a juggle trap.
And also, you say G&W's grab game lead to nothing, what does Fox's lead into?
________________________
"If he is approaching with a SH aerial: If the GW commits to using fishbowl or fair to approach you, it's a free usmash out of shield. yes it hits if the GW is not perfectly spacing. If he is. you shielded a move."
G&W will rarely use fair as an approach, especially using sh, just to much lag. With nair, he can nick Fox's shield (with a SH/FH) and dair, SJ into fair, or upb away/inside. Or he could FF, leading into practically his entire moveset (similar to Fox's dair), or crossup into smashes/tilts.
________________________
"The GW's next move will be most likely one of two things: either another SH aerial (jiggs from melee) or a dtilt to beat your rush. At this point, you have a choice. A run shield gets you a guaranteed grab or usmash out of shield, because the GW no longer has perfect spacing. Yes, this does work. Other than that, assuming he doesn't use fishbowl for the second aerial (which happens rarely), you get a dair grab/whatever is comboing at that %."
If Game & Watch is in a position where Fox has shielded an aerial, and he is spaced incorrectly, all he has to do is Upb away. This avoids all counters, he can then cancel his parachute animation with a ff'd aerial/special to punish the ending lag of Fox's would-be follow-up, or he could retreat back to neutral state.
________________________
"If he is playing defensively, which will happen quite a bit. He will keep you away with turtle and dtilt, mainly. First of all, Dair beats both of those, if he commits to something. of course, you don't go for the dair all the time, because GW > dair. Secondly, a good shield rush will put a LOT of pressure on GW, causing him to go for something or move away."
If G&W is committing himself to bair, he's not going to be attacking under you, he wouldn't even have bair'd if you were over him. Game & Watch will drop a wall of disjointed hitboxes on Fox that falls, if you rise, he will rise higher with FH or upb, and carpet Fox's attempt with a retreating FF'd bair. Fox has nothing against well spaced, disjointed aerials.
But in the scenario Fox does dair, G&W's aerials- nair and uair, will punish. If the window is smaller, he can just fling himself through with upb's invincibility frames.
Fox's shield approach is flattened with bair, and nair, which just eats-up shield energy. Mr. Game & Watch can Fsmash/Dsmash just as you approach; safe on block, and good shield knockback. Fsmash's lingering hitbox will punish badly spaced dairs, or any of Fox's- slash that, all of Fox's moves but laser (If spaced wrong).
________________________
"GW's dodges are retardedly bad, so punishing them is easy. GW players know this, so they will jump away or attack. If they attack, 90% of the time, you can punish."
Thats why upb is so great. It resets the neutral state, and allows a neater re-approach.
Oh and G&W is great at punishing dodges, especially with smashes.
________________________
"Let me repeat something I said before. if the GW SH aerials, it is very possible to trade with your usmash. usmash does nearly 20%...and GW starts dying before 90%...do the math. I'm not saying to just spam usmash...but when you can take that big of a step to a stock loss, why would you not take it?"
Is usmash his only option against G&W's aerials? Thats going to leave it stale, and will neutralize Fox's killing potential.
G&W will outlast Fox, especiall with bucket braking.
And to add, Game & Watch doesn't have to sh, he can FH FF, collasping hitboxes, rather than throwing them.
________________________
"Fox's bair goes through fishbowl and trades with fair."
Yes, but only if spaced wrong. Bair beats all of Fox's aerials, so yeah.
________________________
"Again, I say GW has nothing viable from grab. Yes he can dthrow you...but I'm assuming we've all learned to tech here. He can't get a tech chase grab. I believe tech chase usmash works, but he has to guess you out so far that if you are unpredictable in the slightest, you'll be fine."
That doesn't mean your scott-free, if G&W predicts your retreat correctly, that's KO at like 70-80%. Also, uthrow is pretty good in this match-up, its a juggle set-up, and Fox isn't really safe from below, upb/uair/nair will just flop him across the stage. If Fox airdodges, G&W can punish with his lingering hitboxes (fsmash, ftilt, dashA, bair, nair, dair, utilt), or charged smashes. However, it does take quite a bit of prediction. Game & Watch can swap between uthrow and dthrow to throw Fox off.
And since Mccloud is a fast faller, its extremely easy to chain aerials, he just falls into the next attack over, and over.
________________________
"Somebody mentioned edgeguarding.
Fox's recovery is easy to punish, if the Fox is stupid. I understand that. that's still around from the days of melee...but...if the Fox player knows what he is doing, his recovery becomes one of the most difficult to punish in the game.I know your aerials beat illusion, but why would any fox player illusion into you? Of course this becomes a guessing game, but fox has a LOT of options off the stage."
Fox gets ***** off stage, and when he tries to get back on.
I mean how predictable can you get? Fox can either go for the ledge, or the stage.
________________________
"Of course this becomes a guessing game, but fox has a LOT of options off the stage."
^
Explain.
________________________
"As for other ground moves that GW has...honestly, they should never hit a Fox. I understand things happen, and a good player can guess another person out and land it. but in general, they are not good options. Other than that...grab? leads to nothing...at least it shouldn't. dash attack? not so much. really, that's about it. the entire GW strat in this match"
Well, G&W's ground game isn't built for damage development, its for knock out. Saying smashes will never land is sort of senseless, that's like saying Fox will never die. Sure the opponent knows how to avoid these techniques, but that doesn't go to say they will never connect, you have to consider the mistake factor, and the potential these attacks have. Game & Watch's smashes come out in single digit frames (2, 3, and 7) from charge release, and are nearly lagless on block.
DashA isn't so bad in this match-up, if he hits Fox with the ending frames, it becomes safe on block, from which he can retreat with Upb if unsafe. Considering the attack clanks with any of Fox's attacks, and G&W is safe, he can jab, dtilt, utilt, nair, or FH bair/fair. While if it lands, Fox enters a juggle trap.
And also, you say G&W's grab game lead to nothing, what does Fox's lead into?
________________________
"If he is approaching with a SH aerial: If the GW commits to using fishbowl or fair to approach you, it's a free usmash out of shield. yes it hits if the GW is not perfectly spacing. If he is. you shielded a move."
G&W will rarely use fair as an approach, especially using sh, just to much lag. With nair, he can nick Fox's shield (with a SH/FH) and dair, SJ into fair, or upb away/inside. Or he could FF, leading into practically his entire moveset (similar to Fox's dair), or crossup into smashes/tilts.
________________________
"The GW's next move will be most likely one of two things: either another SH aerial (jiggs from melee) or a dtilt to beat your rush. At this point, you have a choice. A run shield gets you a guaranteed grab or usmash out of shield, because the GW no longer has perfect spacing. Yes, this does work. Other than that, assuming he doesn't use fishbowl for the second aerial (which happens rarely), you get a dair grab/whatever is comboing at that %."
If Game & Watch is in a position where Fox has shielded an aerial, and he is spaced incorrectly, all he has to do is Upb away. This avoids all counters, he can then cancel his parachute animation with a ff'd aerial/special to punish the ending lag of Fox's would-be follow-up, or he could retreat back to neutral state.
________________________
"If he is playing defensively, which will happen quite a bit. He will keep you away with turtle and dtilt, mainly. First of all, Dair beats both of those, if he commits to something. of course, you don't go for the dair all the time, because GW > dair. Secondly, a good shield rush will put a LOT of pressure on GW, causing him to go for something or move away."
If G&W is committing himself to bair, he's not going to be attacking under you, he wouldn't even have bair'd if you were over him. Game & Watch will drop a wall of disjointed hitboxes on Fox that falls, if you rise, he will rise higher with FH or upb, and carpet Fox's attempt with a retreating FF'd bair. Fox has nothing against well spaced, disjointed aerials.
But in the scenario Fox does dair, G&W's aerials- nair and uair, will punish. If the window is smaller, he can just fling himself through with upb's invincibility frames.
Fox's shield approach is flattened with bair, and nair, which just eats-up shield energy. Mr. Game & Watch can Fsmash/Dsmash just as you approach; safe on block, and good shield knockback. Fsmash's lingering hitbox will punish badly spaced dairs, or any of Fox's- slash that, all of Fox's moves but laser (If spaced wrong).
________________________
"GW's dodges are retardedly bad, so punishing them is easy. GW players know this, so they will jump away or attack. If they attack, 90% of the time, you can punish."
Thats why upb is so great. It resets the neutral state, and allows a neater re-approach.
Oh and G&W is great at punishing dodges, especially with smashes.
________________________
"Let me repeat something I said before. if the GW SH aerials, it is very possible to trade with your usmash. usmash does nearly 20%...and GW starts dying before 90%...do the math. I'm not saying to just spam usmash...but when you can take that big of a step to a stock loss, why would you not take it?"
Is usmash his only option against G&W's aerials? Thats going to leave it stale, and will neutralize Fox's killing potential.
G&W will outlast Fox, especiall with bucket braking.
And to add, Game & Watch doesn't have to sh, he can FH FF, collasping hitboxes, rather than throwing them.
________________________
"Fox's bair goes through fishbowl and trades with fair."
Yes, but only if spaced wrong. Bair beats all of Fox's aerials, so yeah.
________________________
"Again, I say GW has nothing viable from grab. Yes he can dthrow you...but I'm assuming we've all learned to tech here. He can't get a tech chase grab. I believe tech chase usmash works, but he has to guess you out so far that if you are unpredictable in the slightest, you'll be fine."
That doesn't mean your scott-free, if G&W predicts your retreat correctly, that's KO at like 70-80%. Also, uthrow is pretty good in this match-up, its a juggle set-up, and Fox isn't really safe from below, upb/uair/nair will just flop him across the stage. If Fox airdodges, G&W can punish with his lingering hitboxes (fsmash, ftilt, dashA, bair, nair, dair, utilt), or charged smashes. However, it does take quite a bit of prediction. Game & Watch can swap between uthrow and dthrow to throw Fox off.
And since Mccloud is a fast faller, its extremely easy to chain aerials, he just falls into the next attack over, and over.
________________________
"Somebody mentioned edgeguarding.
Fox's recovery is easy to punish, if the Fox is stupid. I understand that. that's still around from the days of melee...but...if the Fox player knows what he is doing, his recovery becomes one of the most difficult to punish in the game.I know your aerials beat illusion, but why would any fox player illusion into you? Of course this becomes a guessing game, but fox has a LOT of options off the stage."
Fox gets ***** off stage, and when he tries to get back on.
I mean how predictable can you get? Fox can either go for the ledge, or the stage.
________________________
"Of course this becomes a guessing game, but fox has a LOT of options off the stage."
^
Explain.
cutter
Smash Champion
GW's Dthrow leads to either nothing or paydirt. That's why his Dthrow is called a techchase 
By the way, nobody really agrees on the matchup. You'll hear some people say it's close to even, you'll hear others say G&W *****. (Anyone who says Fox ***** in this matchup is loooooooooooooool.)
SCOTU lives in the same area as some really good G&W players (NoJ, for one, although I don't know how good he is anymore), and he says the matchup is about even. Other decent Fox mains say it's closer to 65:35.
70:30 stretches it, for sure, because G&W is not a hard counter to Fox. So the range we're probably looking at is 55:45 to 65:35 G&W's favor. I probably won't participate much because I don't get much practice against G&W's, but I'm just trying to give you guys an idea of what the field is like.
SCOTU lives in the same area as some really good G&W players (NoJ, for one, although I don't know how good he is anymore), and he says the matchup is about even. Other decent Fox mains say it's closer to 65:35.
70:30 stretches it, for sure, because G&W is not a hard counter to Fox. So the range we're probably looking at is 55:45 to 65:35 G&W's favor. I probably won't participate much because I don't get much practice against G&W's, but I'm just trying to give you guys an idea of what the field is like.
omegablackmage
Certified Lion Rider
i don't see why fox can't spam lasers, bucket isn't that strong with the laser at all. that forces us to approach, but fox doesn't really have amazing punishment moves like some other spammy characters do (yoshi, olimar, snake, etc)
Mr. Escalator
G&W Guru
G&W can duck x)
and do the duck walk.
I would settle for 65-45. Neb's ratio is way too much, imo.
Hell if I play many Fox's, though.
and do the duck walk.
I would settle for 65-45. Neb's ratio is way too much, imo.
Hell if I play many Fox's, though.
Lol, did someone seriously say G&W's grab game leads to nothing? Hello, dthrow techchase?!
Edgeguarding: Basically, fox has two options: Illusion straight into G&W's smash, or Illusion straight into an edgehog.
G&W can utilt fox 2-3 times and nair for a 40+% combo on fox. How do you get out of fox's utilt lock? Up b?
Edgeguarding: Basically, fox has two options: Illusion straight into G&W's smash, or Illusion straight into an edgehog.
G&W can utilt fox 2-3 times and nair for a 40+% combo on fox. How do you get out of fox's utilt lock? Up b?
Mr. Escalator
G&W Guru
K 2, you do realize that Fox has an upB, right? Lol.
Plus his Fair during his second jump can usually get him to where he wants to go.
Plus his Fair during his second jump can usually get him to where he wants to go.
Neb
Smash Lord
lol, I threw out that ratio to be eaten apart.
Actually, I posted it for sheer reaction,
.On a serious note 7:3, or what you said, 60:35.
Acex27
Smash Apprentice
Neb
Smash Lord
Oh, I forgot about the laser, :/.
Tero.
Smash Champion
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Not to mention uthrow to juggling, why does everybody forget about this?
Also yeah I was about to say that Fox can refresh his moves with the blaster, but someone was faster.
Actually I think 6:4 or 65:35 is more accurate than 70:30, Fox can definitly do good against G&W and Usmash will finish at ridiculous % (lol I always say that because everyone can finish G&W at ridiculous % compared to Snake or DDD or stuff lol)
Bucket isn't actually that worse for Fox players since blaster don't do that much % but it still has an enormous hitbox, but yeah Fox can refresh his kill moves with lasers so it might be worth the risk.
Cubone
Smash Lord
How well does GW's ledgecamping work against fox? I never get to play serious fox's ><
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
We haven't even touched on the applications of the Doop Walk in this discussion.
Neb
Smash Lord
lol, shut up, xD.
Sukai
Smash Champion
*Input from the Fox player no one cares about*(that's me ^^)
G&W vs Fox.
From Fox's perspective.
This a tough fight, long story short, but it doesn't beat any of Fox's other match ups.
One thing is certain, Fox can never take it to the skies with the beloved Ink stain from hell.
G&W air game >>>>> Fox's
G&W also has the advantage of stronger kill moves, he is able to kill fox around the same percentage Fox can kill him, but G&W can kill easier. With good spacing, G&W is almost unpunishable and can easily keep Fox at bay. His sausage camping is a nuisance if done right, because reflecting it does nothing to benefit Fox other than not taking damage from it, which can also be punished by G&W.
Edge-guarding Game & Watch is about as easy as predicting the lottery exactly 2 weeks from now with no sources (impossible unless you have supernatural abilities). On the flipside, G&W can render Fox's recovery options almost completey null and void.
Judgment is also an issue, especially in Fox's case, seeing how he must get close to G&W to deal any real damage. Not to mention that alot of Fox's moves, one in particular being the down air can be punished with this move too, and "9" makes it all the worse. G&W's ground game is also hard to get around, as most of his moves are very well ranged and works against Fox hard.
It's a hard match up, but not Fox's worst.
Fox's primary method of damage is his lasers, yeah these can be stored in the bucket, but doesn't deal alot of damage when unleashed on him, having the weakest projectile in the game and all, and after G&W has a full bucket, he can't do much to avoid the lasers. Other than that, Fox relies predominantly on punishing G&W's attacks in smallest punishing time frame possible. Upon some instances, Fox can get a grab or two in. If both players are smart, it will be a slow match, mainly because a defensive Fox is the way to go here, putting a spacey G&W on the offensive and advantage.
Fox's best advantage here is the sheer killing power of a fresh up smash, which can take G&W out around 90%, from there its all about punishing air attacks, which is G&W's primary offense (from what I've seen and experienced, don't flame me if I'm wrong).
G&W vs Fox.
From Fox's perspective.
This a tough fight, long story short, but it doesn't beat any of Fox's other match ups.
One thing is certain, Fox can never take it to the skies with the beloved Ink stain from hell.
G&W air game >>>>> Fox's
G&W also has the advantage of stronger kill moves, he is able to kill fox around the same percentage Fox can kill him, but G&W can kill easier. With good spacing, G&W is almost unpunishable and can easily keep Fox at bay. His sausage camping is a nuisance if done right, because reflecting it does nothing to benefit Fox other than not taking damage from it, which can also be punished by G&W.
Edge-guarding Game & Watch is about as easy as predicting the lottery exactly 2 weeks from now with no sources (impossible unless you have supernatural abilities). On the flipside, G&W can render Fox's recovery options almost completey null and void.
Judgment is also an issue, especially in Fox's case, seeing how he must get close to G&W to deal any real damage. Not to mention that alot of Fox's moves, one in particular being the down air can be punished with this move too, and "9" makes it all the worse. G&W's ground game is also hard to get around, as most of his moves are very well ranged and works against Fox hard.
It's a hard match up, but not Fox's worst.
Fox's primary method of damage is his lasers, yeah these can be stored in the bucket, but doesn't deal alot of damage when unleashed on him, having the weakest projectile in the game and all, and after G&W has a full bucket, he can't do much to avoid the lasers. Other than that, Fox relies predominantly on punishing G&W's attacks in smallest punishing time frame possible. Upon some instances, Fox can get a grab or two in. If both players are smart, it will be a slow match, mainly because a defensive Fox is the way to go here, putting a spacey G&W on the offensive and advantage.
Fox's best advantage here is the sheer killing power of a fresh up smash, which can take G&W out around 90%, from there its all about punishing air attacks, which is G&W's primary offense (from what I've seen and experienced, don't flame me if I'm wrong).
All and all.
Fox vs G&W
| |
v v
35 : 65
Fox vs G&W
| |
v v
35 : 65
A2ZOMG
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7/3 G&W. Reasons Emblem Lord gave:
G&W can duck under lasers and camp all day. He can B-air and D-tilt whenever Fox approaches, and Fox has no real counters to that as long as the G&W spaces right.
Fox really isn't good at all. The only thing he has is ridiculous KO power and a few really situational combos. He doesn't have the luxury of safety that G&W has, and he's almost as lightweight.
Fox in teams however is much more devastating keep in mind.
G&W can duck under lasers and camp all day. He can B-air and D-tilt whenever Fox approaches, and Fox has no real counters to that as long as the G&W spaces right.
Fox really isn't good at all. The only thing he has is ridiculous KO power and a few really situational combos. He doesn't have the luxury of safety that G&W has, and he's almost as lightweight.
Fox in teams however is much more devastating keep in mind.
65+45=110?
Yeah, but the start up lag on firefox is laughable. I know bair or a well timed fair will knock fox out of his firefox, which allows G&W to edgehog fox.
Yeah, G&W can destroy fox with juggle traps. I usually just uthrow on fatties and characters with good techrolls.
Pikachu!
Right, Fox is approaching. Makes perfect sense. Especially since it's so much more likely that Fox is going to called out for stalling instead of G&W. And because he obviously has no answers ever to Bair or Dtilt. Really, I don't understand how some of this theorysmashing gets through.
Okay, let's pretend Fox is approaching G&W, an unlikely situation in the first place. Dtilt is punished with RAR Bair, turnaround crossup Fair, sliding shield->jab (which sets up into some nasty frametraps), SH Dair (situational), and a few more situational things.
Bair is a bit harder, but Fox just shields, drops, comes in with either a SH, sliding shield, full hop to reset spacing, or blah blah you get the idea. Fox doesn't have any stellar answers to Bair, but they're not shabby.
As far as bucket is concerned, what you really want to save it for is ruining our jumps when we're coming back onstage. It's more difficult to gimp Fox than you think. (He can only recover on the stage or on the ledge! No ****, seriously? G&W can recover INTO THE BLAST ZONES, HE'S THAT BROKEN.)
Fox shouldn't be afraid to laser, since the bucket can only hold 3 shots. It's a risk worth taking for the ability to laser camp.
I don't understand why people are throwing out numbers like 70:30, because G&W is no hard counter to Fox. 60:40 is really much more reasonable.
Some other small things:
UpB won't get you out of Utilt chains without some good SDI first, and you want to SDI toward Fox's front and upward, since at the front, Utilt hits 1 frame later (which is really all the difference).
Usmash can kill at ~87%.
Don't underestimate Fox's recovery. It's not good, but it's not bad either. Shinestalling, DJ Fair recovery, Illusion shortening, along with Firefox and Illusion give him many options for landing. Anywhere from the ledge to almost half of FD is plausible territory for landing, and G&W can't cover all of that.
60:40, most likely.
Actually, there's some cool stuff Fox can fake out with using some tricks that semi-involve the Doop Walk. It's nothing gamebreaking, but it's pretty funny to whiff a grab as Fox slides back while charging Dsmash and kills you.
A2ZOMG
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You have to approach to land a KO move anyway. Or hope your opponent is REALLY bad at spacing or does dumb stuff with rolls and spotdodges. =/
RAR B-air is asking to be shieldgrabbed. F-air can be countered with other stuff out of shield. If you're getting in with a Jab, he's spacing the B-air or D-tilt pretty badly. SH D-air is also a free shieldgrab in most situations.
You can't punish it out of shield if he spaces right. Only if he like is right on top of you you can try to Up-smash out of shield. =/
G&W doesn't use the Bucket in this matchup. He saves it for Bucket Braking.
You have no safe ways of getting a KO move on G&W unless he's bad at spacing. So it makes sense to me. The only way you can guarantee a KO move is if you trip your opponent into a Smash attack with the D-air, and the D-air is easily shieldgrabbed making it risky to use in a game where shieldcamping runs rampant. G&W's KO moves are safe. It's difficult for Fox to recover without getting punished by G&W also because of G&W's magical ability to throw out a disjointed hitbox that will knock you out of the illusion or Firefox reliably.
So okay, you're offstage, you are shine stalling looking for an opportunity to Illusion. G&W should usually D-tilt or F-smash to prevent you from Illusioning directly into him. Your options are then to go above him, or to sweetspot the ledge. If you're right at the same level as G&W, your only option is to go for the ledge, and a B-air, F-air, or D-air can hit you out of that.
In the event you ever Firefox, you WILL get D-aired.
Fox's recovery isn't trash. It's just a lot more punishable than the god tier bull**** that rules Brawl. And G&W has a number of good and safe ways to punish Fox's recovery that can kill him if he gets hit. Fox neither can edgeguard or safely KO under most circumstances.
60/40 is definitely too light. G&W has ways to stay safe in almost all situations as long as he doesn't mess up. Fox has to capitalize on screw ups to hope for a chance to actually win since he doesn't have safe ways to threaten G&W.
Most fox's recover with illusion, given its great speed. All G&W has to do is predict whether fox will go for the sweetspot or whether fox will try to recover onstage. If fox goes for the sweetspot, speedhugging and edgehogging works well. If fox tries to wait out the invincibilty frames with shine stalling, G&W can simply ledgedrop into bair if he runs out of invincibilty frames. Bair knocks fox out of illusion consistantly.
If fox goes for the onstage recovery, G&W can dsmash.
If fox goes for firefox recovery, fair and bair will knock him out of it, since it doesn't grant SA or invincibilty frames.
If fox goes for the onstage recovery, G&W can dsmash.
If fox goes for firefox recovery, fair and bair will knock him out of it, since it doesn't grant SA or invincibilty frames.
Conviction
Human Nature
A2ZOMG
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F-air lasts quite a bit of time and Fox is light. If you are in the position where you need to DJ F-air, you gotta watch out for actually being edgeguarded to death. G&W is very good at chasing offstage.
cutter
Smash Champion
What is Fox going to do if GW starts to do some hardcore ledgecamping? It seems like Fox has very few, if any options at answering a ledgecamping GW.
A2ZOMG
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Hope for a B-air stagespike. That's pretty much it. Nobody really has answers to G&W's edgecamping LOL.
If he tries to do that, just get up, and edgeguard him with a D-air as he tries to get back on stage.
If he tries to do that, just get up, and edgeguard him with a D-air as he tries to get back on stage.
Sukai
Smash Champion
Debates like these usually don't end well.
Can't we all settle for 35 (Fox) : 65 (G&W)?
Because from what I see, some say 30 : 70 and others say 40 : 60.
Wouldn't it be better if we met each other half way?
Can't we all settle for 35 (Fox) : 65 (G&W)?
Because from what I see, some say 30 : 70 and others say 40 : 60.
Wouldn't it be better if we met each other half way?
Neb
Smash Lord
I still say 7:3, 65:35 at least.
They haven't answered our statements yet.
They haven't answered our statements yet.
Sukai
Smash Champion
omegablackmage
Certified Lion Rider
i would say no more than 65/35. his laser camping, early kills w/ upsmash, and decent speed are enough to keep it from a 7/3. Considering that a drill, uptilt, uptilt, nair does at least 40 damage im sure, and then some laser camping and a few random hits, then he can land an upsmash? it seems no more than 65/35
cutter
Smash Champion
I'd still like to know how Fox is going to deal with a ledgecamping GW.
K@0S
Smash Ace
I don't see many ledgecamping gws tbh :/
Mr. Escalator
G&W Guru
Then they are doing it wrong xD
I agree with OBM's Ratio. Never was a fan of Fox losing out 7:3. More of a 6:4/65:35 guy myself.
Also K 2 should watch himself.
I agree with OBM's Ratio. Never was a fan of Fox losing out 7:3. More of a 6:4/65:35 guy myself.
Also K 2 should watch himself.
Sukai
Smash Champion
But I said it too...
That was my first and only ratio.
Tero.
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I agree
A2ZOMG
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I shieldcamp and crouch camp a lot against Fox. I dunno, I'd agree a lot of the matchup is pretty boring and about being more patient than your opponent. If you get too agressive you can get punished fairly significantly.
Drill is a free shieldgrab unless he's lucky enough to space it behind you.
Since when is spacing lucky? Good Foxes are really hard to grab because of his speed in general; I should hope they won't be drilling the front of your shield very often.
Wichita has a pretty good Fox in Zeton; it's not a devastating matchup in Mr. Game & Watch's favor or anything. Yeah, Mr. Game & Watch is basically a flat out better character, but Fox is fast while actually hitting decently hard and can use that to punish mistakes pretty well. Fox actually forces you to be pretty careful in general; that's a quality attribute. I can't say I find Fox intimidating or anything, but there are a lot of characters I'd much rather fight than Fox. You can't just sit back and wait for Fox or anything; he has a gun. So it's not really about being patient; it's more about just coming at him with precision and not leaving holes for him to exploit. 60/40 or 65/35 is probably right.
Wichita has a pretty good Fox in Zeton; it's not a devastating matchup in Mr. Game & Watch's favor or anything. Yeah, Mr. Game & Watch is basically a flat out better character, but Fox is fast while actually hitting decently hard and can use that to punish mistakes pretty well. Fox actually forces you to be pretty careful in general; that's a quality attribute. I can't say I find Fox intimidating or anything, but there are a lot of characters I'd much rather fight than Fox. You can't just sit back and wait for Fox or anything; he has a gun. So it's not really about being patient; it's more about just coming at him with precision and not leaving holes for him to exploit. 60/40 or 65/35 is probably right.
Neb
Smash Lord
So we're agreeing on 65:35, yes?
Sukai
Smash Champion
But I said it firs--
Whatever.
Yeah, 63:53....
And a good Fox makes people scratch their heads about his tier placement.
Tero.
Smash Champion
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Oh this is so true, but this might apply to any character if played good, doesn't it?