Q&A Game and Watch Q&A Thread

[j00t]

HOLY ****

Kuya I officially tap my miner's hat to you

you are the greatest GnW of all time

VUVUZELA COMBO

 

[ChivalRuse]

That combo was all kinds of amazing.

 

[The Prophet_]

HOLY ****

Kuya I officially tap my miner's hat to you

you are the greatest GnW of all time

VUVUZELA COMBO

Vuvuzela combo? Lol really? About to watch it on my wii. I bet its pretty tight!

 

[Faithkeeper]

Does up b ever kill?

When is the percent high enough to use upb oos and not get punished for it... ever?

Is G&Ws dash dance any good, it looks very sexy but doesn't seem very mobile.

What is G&Ws best "ranged" attack? (like in the sense that nair is fox's "best ranged" attack because of its potential distance in a short period of time... I hope that makes sense)

(not on my comp, have to use IE, no spell check: sorry in advance)

 

[Cactuarz]

Up b can kill. Spacies it can kill as an edge guard if they recover low and you hit them when they're at a lower %, they usually get tripped up and will drop like a rock. Floaties can die if you hit them way in the air and smack them with an up-b.

At mid-high %'s when you hit people into the air and they're too high to continue the combo, it's nice to go ahead and smack them with the tip of your up b. It's a safe 7ish extra %.

Up-B OoS I only use on levels with battlefield styled platforms. Against spacies if you up b OoS from about 20%-some high number it's safe if you do it towards the center platform and land on top of it. against floaties it'll work in the same way as long as they aren't too high of a %, to where they're up high enough from it to punish you.


Dash Dance is great with G&W, but i usually wavedash every 1 or 2 dashesto mix up teh distance and move more. Dash dance + wavedash = ****

G&W's zoning tool (i think you mean zoning with fox's nair) imo is an edge canceled bair, covers so much space, and instantly can attack again (I abuse edge cancels which is mad easy with G&W) Then the next best would probably be short hopped fairs.

The zoning tools are my opinion, but edge canceled bairs are so good =p

 

[Faithkeeper]

Can people SDI out of the 2nd hit of the uair?

Can G&W do this with his dtilt?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=280608


What are good shield pressure options? I've seen some dtilt>fair in vids.


Does G&W have any attacks that would have a frame advantage (via shield stun) after hitting a shield? It'd be nice to know when you have a "free move."

Spoiler

(example: after falcon knees a shield, he can gentleman the shield without getting shieldgrabbed after the knee.)

Is the frame data for how much shield stun G&W's attacks give with superdoodleman's data? Do we even have that data?

 

[Cactuarz]

As much as i love seanson's hitbox system, they never made a G&W update to it =c but it's nice to look at for everyone else's hitboxes=D

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=95150

Alphameric's G&W guide has frame data if you wanna look at that, i don't think you can dtilt to stand to avoid sheik's grab, but you might, i'd check it out but i have work soon.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=102837

M2K's giant random stat list, i'll post G&W's info here for you

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30064

G&W Spotdodge 32 frames, invincible for 11... (most people are 56-63% invincible while G&W is 34... worst spot dodge ever)

Air dodge is 29 frames, invincible frames 4-29

Rolling invincible 16 out of 35 frames (bad)

G&W 2'nd shortest back roll distance, shortest forward roll distance... don't roll ever

G&W throwing items does 2% less than most chars (turnips)

G&W has the 3'rd slowest item throw (turnips again haha, just z drop them)

G&W's weight is 60, same as jigglypuff's

G&W has the 3'rd lowest duck, between jigglypuff and sheik

G&W has about 3'rd lowest short hop *great for certain really low platforms on levels like FoD *

Ledge getup attack horizontal range is 2'nd/3'rd worst in the game, =(

Horizontal aerial moving speed G&W is 8'th best

G&W's grab range is slightly larger than falcon/ganon's very slightly *for reference)



I'll look at frame advantage stuff after work

 

[Faithkeeper]

i don't think you can dtilt to stand to avoid sheik's grab, but you might, i'd check it out but i have work soon.

It's really just using the IASA frames to hold back and move a bit out of grab range. if marth can get out of range from that close, G&W may be able to if he spaces a little better. Wouldn't be anything game changing (:D) but it would make dtilt on shield safer. It's also supposedly really easy to do. I'm checking it out for G&W now.

Does anyone know how to collect frame data (like shield stun stuff is what I'm most interested in) Does it require AR? Is AR for the gamecube findable?

does upb from under a space animal gimp them much, or just tack on 6%? (I don't know what the stun on that attack is like, and CPUs always die form that kind of stuff)

 

[Cactuarz]

Usually it trips them up well, I know i've gotten plenty of gimps with it as it does have some hitstun to it. Though if they're at a higher % it sends them more upward

Hitlag/hitstun/sheild stuff for G&W

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=2690031#post2690031

First number is hitlag of the attack (frames that they can't do anything but SDI) 2'nd number is sheildstun (how long they can't do anything after getting hit)

After that I'm assuming you take this info

M2K's post, too lazy to correctly quote

Shield Release Recovery Time - this rates how much of a lag there is after you release the shield button (R, L, and sometimes used is Z).

Group A
---14 frames recovery time
---3 characters: Jigglypuff / Peach / Zelda

Group B
---15 frames recovery time
---14 characters: DK / Dr. Mario / Falco / Fox / Ice Climbers / Kirby / Link / Luigi / Mario / Ness / Pichu / Pikachu / Sheik / Young Link

Group C
---16 frames recovery time
---8 characters: Bowser / Captain Falcon / Ganondorf / Marth / Mewtwo / Mr. Game & Watch / Roy / Samus

Group D
---17 frames recovery time
---1 character: Yoshi
/end quote

I'm guessing add hitstun, then sheild stun, plus sheild recovery time, I don't know for sure, I'll have scotu take a look at it. I wanna say they can sheildgrab/up b Oos/usmash OoS since they don't have to drop their sheild for it (I wanna say they can jump out too since it cancels sheilds O.O ewww

Then to see what frame your attack hits use alpha's G&W guide with all the frame information
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=102837
and it has your IASA frames and everything. Just gotta do all your math stuffs

EDIT:

D-Tilt - Manhole (12%)
Total Frames: 29
Hit: 6-13
IASA: 26
Learn to love this move. It is the cornerstone of all Game & Watchery.
It has perfect knockback; Straight up on ground target, or diagonally out on an air target. (ALPHA'S THREAD)

07 14 Down Tilt
(PHANNA'S THREAD)

hits frame 6, hitstun frames 6-13, sheildstun 14-27. dtilt does IASA faster than the sheildstun goes away =D. you'd be standing as they'd be buffering their sheildgrab, or you could probably jab after, and catch them in grab animation as it comes out frame 4. =D

 

[DualCats]

This has likely been answered before but I just want some opinions on things to do from the ledge. I generally have a bit of trouble when it comes to that and I tend to rely on hoping my opponent falls for silly gimmicky tricks. I think I'm even mixing it up very effectively but I still usually get punished. Is this just remarkably difficult for G&W or do I just suck?

fair and wavedash-to-grab seem to be realistic options but they're also very predictable options. Similar story for get-up attack. Other things I've tried include up-b onto platforms. While this is typically an unexpected course of action, the length of G&W's up-b leaves him vulnerable for a very long time. Additionally I've tried to wavedash behind them and bair, which works if they're really expecting a grab but is obviously something that can't be a reliable option because of the amount of time taken to perform this. I will also occasionally uair but against floaty characters, it can be difficult to follow up and against fast-fallers (or realistically anyone at low-percent) they can tech it and punish. I've also attempted to jump behind and nair but this move is so telegraphed that good players will rarely be caught by it. His roll and airdodge are terribly easy to punish.

I tend to think one of the best options here is just to jump and escape. o__o I don't really know, I think I just might be trying too hard to mix it up.

 

[Cactuarz]

Ledge: Ledgehop fair is of course our bread and butter. It's amazing, however can get predictable, people will CC and grab, or sheild and grab all day. If you train them to grab you, jumping up with a nair does work.. really well from experience =o.

I perfer waveland jab to waveland grab myself, it's faster, and you can almost always jab > grab anyways, If the jab hits it's basically guarenteed, if they sheild it can sometimes mess up sheild grab timing. Note: if it's against tall guys (marf/falcon/ganon) and you can duck under their grab, jab into duck into dtilt their missed grabs work... well... I love it.

On Yoshi's Island if you jump from the ledge you perfect land (i.e. no lag) on the platform, i still don't like doing this often.

Ledge hop, waveland backwards into jumping dair works well too (think how falcons jump up, waveland off the stage and knee a lot) I like this method a lot actually. Also sometimes just ledge hopping, and staying at the very edge doing nothing isn't a bad idea ^_^ it's about reading what your opponent thinks you'll do a lot of times.

Also: FoD, and maybe DL64 you can waveland to the stage into an instant up b and land on that top platform for safety... probably the most wtf thing they won't be expecting and you can escape =p I've been doing this the past few months here and there. It's hilarious.

Also also: If you like bacon you can jump highish, toss out the bacon, drop below the edge and up b to the stage/ledge/maybe a platform above you? haven't tried this, will soon =D

 

[KirbyKaze]

D-Tilt - Manhole (12%)
Total Frames: 29
Hit: 6-13
IASA: 26
Learn to love this move. It is the cornerstone of all Game & Watchery.
It has perfect knockback; Straight up on ground target, or diagonally out on an air target. (ALPHA'S THREAD)

07 14 Down Tilt
(PHANNA'S THREAD)

hits frame 6, hitstun frames 6-13, sheildstun 14-27. dtilt does IASA faster than the sheildstun goes away =D. you'd be standing as they'd be buffering their sheildgrab, or you could probably jab after, and catch them in grab animation as it comes out frame 4. =D

D-tilt hits frame 6. Then you're frozen in hitlag and 7 frames of stun are lost into the first hitting frame. Then you get the next 7 as your animation continues (if you're Peach or something doing an FC aerial, this is where you'd get your frame advantage and get to do actionable stuff at advantage).

So for GaW D-tilt > D-tilt it's more like:

Hits frame 6, freeze, then they're stunned until you reach frame 14. Then they can action. If you prompt for a second D-tilt with perfect timing, you'd have 16-17 frames of them being able to do stuff between two D-tilts (I forget if IASA means interruptable on that frame, or the next one).

That said, a WD OOS is 10+jump startup and D-tilt pushes away pretty far so you can't really be punished by much. I would be wary of aerial OOS by like Marth.

D-tilt is good.

 

[DualCats]

Also: FoD, and maybe DL64 you can waveland to the stage into an instant up b and land on that top platform for safety... probably the most wtf thing they won't be expecting and you can escape =p I've been doing this the past few months here and there. It's hilarious.

I haven't ever considered this. :D That's interesting- I'm certainly going to try it.

I also occasionally do the bacon trick. It goes without saying that it should be done with extreme discretion but if your opponent is dead-set on trying to predict something normal it can be helpful.

 

[j00t]

After seeing all sorts of low-tier representation at P5 I am gonna try really hard to revolutionize Game and Watch. I feel he is in the same boat as Yoshi in that he has untapped potential.

 

[Pi]

this is stupid

 

[Cactuarz]

hahaha that is one of the moves that makes him PLAYABLE =p. And yes... it's very stupid. Playing in debug mode with hitboxes on makes G&W more scary =)

 

[DualCats]

G&W's nair is the reason I get out of bed in the morning. That and kittens.

 

[Rubyiris]

kittens doing G&W's nair.

Also Foxes (of the not-melee kind.)

 

[DualCats]

kittens doing G&W's nair.

Also Foxes (of the not-melee kind.)

I am totally okay with this.

 

[Massive]

IMAGE
this is stupid

That's where the hitbox for G&Ws shield went...

 

[ChivalRuse]

^ Lol. Pretty much.

 

[j00t]

Starting to collect footage for my combo video. It's gonna blow your ****s off.

 

[DualCats]

That sounds incredibly sexy. ,':3

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

this is stupid

dear god.

i love this character

 

[Cactuarz]

Hey guys, I love you and all, but I'm retiring at the end of april =c so ask a lot of questions till then so I can spread what knowledge I have of G&W before then ^_^

 

[SuperMatt]

can we do something like up throw @ 50% on a foxx into down air spike and get the landing hitbox also into a regrab...i think the 2nd hit pops them up if they are at the correct damage?

ive done this on a computer but never tried it in a match

 

[The Phenom]

Hey guys, I love you and all, but I'm retiring at the end of april =c so ask a lot of questions till then so I can spread what knowledge I have of G&W before then ^_^

I hope this doesn't mean complete retirement from Smash. I'm really glad you've done things for this board.

Anyways...I've been practicing a full hop bair to a falling bair. That is, two bairs in a single full hop.

^^Thoughts, ideas anyone?

 

[Cactuarz]

@supermatt, with certain DI yes, but if they DI away in either direction you have an option of regrabbing if you're fast enough. It's pretty effective/flashy on FD =p.

@phenom I'll probably still lurk around here, but I'm not traveling to tourneys (all 2+ hours from me) anymore, also no smashfests other than with roomates and such, so pretty much bye bye smash =c

Also FH double bair is only good if you edge cancel the 2'nd one, and even then it's pretty bad. Stick with the single bair edge cancel or the single bair waveland jab =p much better options 99.99999% of the time

 

[The Phenom]

@phenom I'll probably still lurk around here, but I'm not traveling to tourneys (all 2+ hours from me) anymore, also no smashfests other than with roomates and such, so pretty much bye bye smash =c

Also FH double bair is only good if you edge cancel the 2'nd one, and even then it's pretty bad. Stick with the single bair edge cancel or the single bair waveland jab =p much better options 99.99999% of the time

I see, pretty much like me then.

Alright then, I guess I'm going to have to replace that with Bair to waveland jab to see how that works for me.

 

[DualCats]

Can I have some suggestions for approaching Samus? I usually end up eating a lot of ftilts. I have some issues with that matchup. @___@

 

[Cactuarz]

tbh i hate the samus matchup a lot, i always cp'd with zelda

 

[The Phenom]

Mango said once that the MU should be played by putting pressure on her the whole match(in general). Try Bairing her a lot of the time and tell me what you think.

I have a match vs Hugs on YT if you want to see; old.

 

[linkoninja]

Why is it that when I throw Game and Watch down sometimes (with Mario and I think Falcon)
he doesn't bounce up, but stays on the ground. I think it was with Mario.

 

[DualCats]

iirc it's a port-priority thing. If G&W is on a lower port than his opponent, he sticks to the ground with some characters. I don't think it works with Falcon, but it does for Doc, Mario and I think Samus as well. Additionally, Bowser's dthrow does zero damage to G&W.

 

[linkoninja]

iirc it's a port-priority thing. If G&W is on a lower port than his opponent, he sticks to the ground with some characters. I don't think it works with Falcon, but it does for Doc, Mario and I think Samus as well. Additionally, Bowser's dthrow does zero damage to G&W.

Controller Port :O?

 

[Saux]

holy ****. game and watch is insanely underrated.

 

[DualCats]

G&W is great until you get hit by anything.

 

[_KuyaSombreo_]

been a while, but i plan to bring my game and watch back from the dead

 

[DualCats]

been a while, but i plan to bring my game and watch back from the dead

Incidentally, this is your 666th post.

 

[standardtoaster]

I'll be making a hitbox thread tomorrow.