Frame Cancel

[Asdioh]

Why not call it Wavelanding? As you land, you wave goodbye to what would have been your usual ending lag.

Seriously though do we know exactly how it works yet, to "appropriately" name it? I've read every post in this thread and I still don't quite understand. The fact that I don't know exactly what hitlag and all these other terms mean kinda hurts my case though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Frame Syncing sounds just perfect! I'll use it from now on because it allows me to continue using FS as abbrevation.

kinda sucks that it doesn't work on shields,,,,,,,but it will be awesome for punishes,,,of rolls,etc,,,

... it works on shield.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Frame Syncing sounds just perfect! I'll use it from now on because it allows me to continue using FS as abbrevation.



... it works on shield.

WAAAAAATTTTTT!!! tell me more

 

[Lanzoma]

Perhaps "overlap" is a better word?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

WAAAAAATTTTTT!!! tell me more

If you hit somebody with FS aerial you sync the hitlag of the aerial and the landing lag of the aerial while the hitstun remains the same. Therefore you end up with superior frame parameters [which may be enough to lead into guaranteed follow-ups].

If you hit somebody's shield with FS aerial you sync the shield hitlag of the aerial with landing lag of the aerial while the shieldstun remains the same. Therefore you end up with superior frame parameter [which may be enough to keep the opponent in a disadvantaged position].

 

[Dr. Tuen]

... it works on shield.

Just read your reply. Any idea why it doesn't seem to work well for Falco's dair in the video that was originally posted?

If it works, it could mean big things for tether grabbers, since they can grab even if you push your opponent away with the aerial on their shield. Though that'd have to be tested, since there may still be too many frames to make that guaranteed.

 

[Izaw]

It works on shield!? Can you show me? I've tried countless times on it and it never worked for me..

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Like, I said I can't show you because I have no way to record things from my 3DS. If you synch the shield hitlag with the landing lag then it's clearly different from when you don't synch. The amount of frames you "skip" by synching shield hitlag and landing lag is probably unremarkable to the point where it may not make a difference at all but technically it works.

Edit: Plus I don't think the majority of aerials can even hit shields during the FS window and even then it's hard to pull off. I couldn't do it more than once with Yoshi's bair >_<

 

[Big O]

I'd like to chime in and say that you don't need to fast fall to get this to work. Some moves might require it from a short/full hop, but for some characters just timing it as late as possible is good enough. For example, it is a lot easier to do this exploit without fast falling for Ganon's Dair from a short hop.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Like, I said I can't show you because I have no way to record things from my 3DS. If you synch the shield hitlag with the landing lag then it's clearly different from when you don't synch. The amount of frames you "skip" by synching shield hitlag and landing lag is probably unremarkable to the point where it may not make a difference at all but technically it works.

Edit: Plus I don't think the majority of aerials can even hit shields during the FS window and even then it's hard to pull off. I couldn't do it more than once with Yoshi's bair >_<

After work I'll try it with ZSS. I'm curious... if close moves (Falco's Dair would count) move the attacker too much it might mess up the frame you're trying to sync on. If that is even remotely true, ZSS should be fine with nair. We'll see. I'll try and lab it up and return with results later tonight!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

After work I'll try it with ZSS. I'm curious... if close moves (Falco's Dair would count) move the attacker too much it might mess up the frame you're trying to sync on. If that is even remotely true, ZSS should be fine with nair.

I have no idea what you're trying to say ....

Also, I think there are a couple of aerials where a sync might be impossible because they autocancel before a hitbox appears. Since such moves cancel upon landing before a hitbox even appears it may not work out at all. I don't know all moves that this applies to but I heard Pac-Man's bair was one of them and indeed I could not manage to synch the move, neither on shield nor on hit. So this may not work out for all moves.

 

[Darklink401]

Landing Cancel

You just never land.

 

[JipC]

Is it really the EXACT FRAME you get the hit?

Also: Aerial Attack Landing Lag Cancel By Fast Falling When You Get The Hit (AALLCBFFWYGTH)

 

[B.A.M.]

ZSS gets alot out of this. I had been testing this a couple weeks back; I was able to get dsmash> FC nair> dsmash> nair> stuff. I had been trying to replicate it in a consistent manner and realized something was odd. Never took the data in frame advance to check the reasoning, but this thread has cleared up a ton of mysteries regarding some old but hard to replicate strings I was finding awhile back. Marth always gets swag from uair ff as is, but this seemed from what i was seeing to give him some juicy stuff. I gotta say good job to people doing work in this thread. Reminds me of good ole' Smash Labs *sobs* I miss lovin it up in Smash Labs.


Anyways I for one feel its a solid find; there are already a myriad of near true combo strings in this game that can easily become true combos by the frame advantage received. Im sure all the researchers in here have already done enough due diligence to ascertain that info. With the breaking down of FC aerials we could see some heavier punishes ( although right now FC aerials aside, the top level play in the community isnt making as much use of the true combos already allotted to us now, though im sure it will change), which will benefit the game.

Also to those who believe this to be useless I would definitely force you to reconsider that notion. This game is have an extremely powerful juggling game with a host of powerful uairs, which enhances the threat of a sh. now if they AD this setups perfectly for the abuse of this tactic. Also, noone can say they havent been hit with an aerial right when they thought the opponent was just about to land. Its a typical landing option; one that now can lead into more legitimate damage. Even vs spotdodges such tactics are strong counter option to an opponent whose afraid of being grabbed ( in a game where a solid amount of grabs lead into guaranteed damage or dangerous scenarios). Especially given the fact that they dont have to be committed directly out of jump. Time will tell how much its used in competitive play, however from a theoretical stand point the uses are apparent.


I will say I have been spending time to find more aerials with Bowser Jr.'s unique dair properties. Doesnt look like they exist, but I hope they are found somewhere. havent looked through all the code yet; can anyone confirm Bowser Jr's dair as an anomaly or what?

 

[ぱみゅ]

But it's not a cancel, it's an overlap

 

[T0MMY]

Lag stacking?

Stack it up! Stack it up!

 

[Saltix]

Reduced Lag Aerial?
RL Dair, Fair, etc. for short.

 

[B.A.M.]

But it's not a cancel, it's an overlap

by " overlapping" the hit lag ( or shield stun according to Gheb) with the landing, it would be canceling the assailant's hitlag. So a form of cancellation is indeed occurring.

Or you can just simply make a statement of a cancel on the premise that the usual cooldown ( which includes the hitlag + cooldown) juxstapose against these new aerials ( whatever you wanna call them) have had some of their frames ( purely based on the general frames it takes and not the amount of frames allocated to a particular state) neutralized. in otherwords, canceled. So the utilization of Cancel in its name is perfectly fine lol. im fine with Frame Cancel. Just name it something lol. no need to throw out semantics in that sense because the term cancel can still be used in this particular situation.

 

[Shaya]

I want real confirmation that this applies on shield hits as well.

 

[Lavani]

I have no idea what you're trying to say ....

Also, I think there are a couple of aerials where a sync might be impossible because they autocancel before a hitbox appears. Since such moves cancel upon landing before a hitbox even appears it may not work out at all. I don't know all moves that this applies to but I heard Pac-Man's bair was one of them and indeed I could not manage to synch the move, neither on shield nor on hit. So this may not work out for all moves.

I got it to work several times with Pac-Man's bair. FS bair > ftilt combos on 20% Fox, regular bair > ftilt doesn't.

 

[Swoops]

Since it happens to be a one frame window, I've always personally been a fan of "Just Frame"

Tons of FGs use it and it feels pretty right in this case. Also simple to use. JF F-Air/D-Air etc

 

[Pazx]

As we've stated, this is an extremely difficult and precise hard punish that doesn't actually give higher reward than easier options on anyone but Ganon, unless I'm mistaken.

As for mix-ups, I'm not sure that this word means what you think it means. An option that loses to everything can't be a mix-up.

Edit:

Example. One of the most effective moves for this is Ness bair. At very low %s (and only very low%s mind you), you can follow a hitlag-landing Ness bair with a Ness f-tilt. This extremely challenging ~30 frame punish nets you a grand total of 24 damage.

You get the same or slightly more from a partially charged F-smash, at comparable speed.

I'm with you in the skeptical camp however I think the primary usage of this will be punishing landings or other laggy moves and I don't think you can write this off so easily. If you bait somebody to airdodge into the ground you should be able to land a frame cancelled aerial.

 

[Roko Jono]

And just like that, this became the least accessible version of Smash Bros to date.

Really though, I wouldn't put it past some people to be able to do this on command and dominate. Speedrunners get 1-frame tricks all the time, why not pro gamers? Wonder what crazy combo's can come out of someone who can fully use this.

 

[Shaya]

Difference is that speedrunners know the exact pattern/timing of their opposing mechanics to guarantee that 1 frame window.
It's patterned or otherwise 'predictable'.

A human opponent adds a lot of other aspects to it.

 

[Roko Jono]

While I don't think anyone will just let you do this to them, you still have moments where it becomes a pattern when you take things such as whiffs, spacing, and flat out punishes or baits into the equation too.

 

[Ffamran]

A human opponent adds a lot of other aspects to it.

Like being stupid. I'm being serious, there's a reason why people prefer to fight trained fighters than some guy off the street. Trained fighters are controlled and know the rules; a newbie might know the rules, but he might pull off stuff nobody's expecting and can seriously hurt both himself and others.

Expect the unexpected is easy to say, but incredibly difficult to do compared to expected the expected. Everyone knows that in Ocarina of Time, the first dungeon item is the slingshot, but nobody's going to know what that guy's going to do with his Fox in that match. He could lose; he could win. Nobody knows.

Isn't that why Borp's considered a good player? He does what people don't expect. A safe player who understands the game, but doesn't fight like others who uses other techniques, goes off-stage for the kill, etc., Borp's methodical and simple.

 

[Ticker]

And just like that, this became the least accessible version of Smash Bros to date.

Really though, I wouldn't put it past some people to be able to do this on command and dominate. Speedrunners get 1-frame tricks all the time, why not pro gamers? Wonder what crazy combo's can come out of someone who can fully use this.

Yea a bunch of people were saying that they like how the game isn't that technical, but alot of the techs found are almost frame perfect.

 

[Shaya]

^ It was like this in Brawl too.

 

[Roukiske]

This is still very viable against humans.

Remember that there are a limited number of actions in this game given some situations. Lets say for example you hit your opponent in a way where they are going to hit the floor in a tech-able situation. Your opponent can tech in 3 different ways or just miss the tech (AFAIK), so that's just 4 actions. Now lets say some godly being has mastered this tech and can do something like knee->knee->knee->knee->falcon punch (the dream!). This godly being has read his opponent successfully and has predicted (or even just randomly guessed) the tech to the left. Take out your popcorn now, you're about to see something good.

 

[MaximalGFX]

Hmm I am having an hard time doing it. Do I have to fast fall after I input the move at the last second? I am trying to hit my opponent with the first frame of the attack and then land with fast fall on the next frame right?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I have no idea what you're trying to say ....

Also, I think there are a couple of aerials where a sync might be impossible because they autocancel before a hitbox appears. Since such moves cancel upon landing before a hitbox even appears it may not work out at all. I don't know all moves that this applies to but I heard Pac-Man's bair was one of them and indeed I could not manage to synch the move, neither on shield nor on hit. So this may not work out for all moves.

I was hypothesizing why this might be difficult or less noticeable on shield. Clarification doesn't matter though, further video review showed I was wrong. I'm still not convinced it works on shield though.

 

[Linkshot]

Couple things

1. Name. I wanna pitch Lag Overlap, because you're overlapping Hitlag with Landing Lag.
2. Played a ton of matches with a friend today and got both Falco and Charizard dAirs doing this through a read/punish various times. It was very noticeable when performed correctly (and @The_Jiggernaut looked terrified)

 

[Raijinken]

Think I'm gonna side with "Landing Sync" for this one. Thus you can say "He synced that Knee and followed up perfectly." and whatnot. Has a cool ring to it (I really like the word Synchronize).

 

[HeroMystic]

Having an extremely difficult time getting this to work with Mario's F-air, which is the only aerial that would benefit from this.

 

[Mayday]

Landed a tech chase stomp to usmash combo with Ganon in a match

 

[Thinkaman]

Fortunately I've already plucked a name for the facts in question as if from thin air! We shall call it:

KYOUMA'S NOSTALGIA CANCEL!

...I propose referring to it as KNC for short; catchy anagrams are far more marketable.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

So I'm finding it pretty hard to do this trick. That window for canceling is really small, and I don't want to risk the move NOT coming out in a real match. Any1 have a consistent setup for doing it with a certain character?

Hitlag Cancel (HC) Lag Cancel (LC) or just Frame Cancel (FC)? I think one of these could work, but idk if the abbreviations are already being used.
Aerial Lag Cancel (ALC) could be a bit catchier, but this is all I got.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Look at the video in the OP again. Skip to 3:45. Falco hits Diddy's shield with a FS dair. He enters shield hitlag and Diddy enters shield stun. After that Falco is supposed to suffer 11 additional frames of landing lag. He also suffers 6 or 7 frames of startup lag before the hitbox of dtilt becomes active so there has to be a gap of ~18 frames between Diddy snapping out of shieldstun and dtilt hitting his shield. I don't know where these 18 frames are supposed to be, in the video the gap looks noticeably smaller.

If somebody broke that part of the video down and showed how it looks frame-by-frame it'd become clear whether this is actually the case or not.

Having an extremely difficult time getting this to work with Mario's F-air, which is the only aerial that would benefit from this.

I found that aerials with high startup lag are a lot more difficult to synch. Moves like [Doctor] Mario's fair are almost impossibly hard to time correctly.

 

[Darklink401]

So my question is, do we gotta do this during the BEGINNING of hitlag, or END of hitlag? >:

I've done it like 5 out of 25 times.

 

[Kwam$tack$]

Having an extremely difficult time getting this to work with Mario's F-air, which is the only aerial that would benefit from this.

Im starting to think it cant be done. if im understanding correctly, the first frame of the attack has to hit as u land and his fair starts from behind him. ive even tried coming from under the stage to try and make the first frame connect as you land but the attack doest come out. maybe im doing it wrong though