Frame Cancel

[Supermodel From Paris]

nair combos into dsmash, fair, uair, nair, running up smash, tilts, dash attack.

Its kinda that type of move. I'm pretty certain by default, ZSS players have probably been doing this with nair "accidentally" probably multiple times per match. I'm [generally] only trying to hit with it just before touching the ground

Right. The way you space uair and nair as approaches makes this more usable, not less.

By the way, Shaya, welcome to the master race.

Yeah I was thinking of nair; with uair I could see this.

But I thought this only worked on moves with significant hitlag? I mean in 1/4x speed on WiiU you can see what's happening clearly--the landing animation starts early during the hitlag. In most cases, the duration of hitstun is not going to be significant.

For a character like ZSS, one or two frames is a lot. You might be able to make uair go into the grounded up b a little earlier so you can perform it without jumping, for example.

 

[Muro]

this should work with pikachu fair right? that move has a ton of hitlag. If it's just experiencing landing lag during hitlag this should still lose to shields though which sucks.

 

[fromundaman]

So to people talking about this being useless... I just got hit by this in a real match before even knowing it existed.

I was at the ledge and Link read me and did a Dair predicting I would do a neutral getup. He guessed right and I sat there wondering how Link Dair comboed into Usmash. Now I know.

This may be situational, but it is definitely not useless, especially on a good read.

 

[icraq]

I'm getting the feeling there's no middle of the road here, if for example Falco's dair didn't have at least 11 frames of hitlag, lets say there were 10, it would cause him to land on the ground and have to suffer his landing lag.

I'm not exactly sure but most moves don't seem to have enough hitlag to benefit from this.

 

[MartinAW4]

There isn't anything tricky about it, all I can say is if you aren't going into the landing animation mid-hitlag then you aren't hitting late enough with it. I guess it could be something with 1/4 speed though, I can try it and see if I manage anything. (EDIT: It works still with 1/4x speed, but I actually find it a lot harder to time right than 1/2x or even 1x)

I can't see this not being useful, though maybe not in the ways the gifs I've been posting in the thread so far would imply. Speaking as a Greninja main, sh nair/fair are quite useful moves, and the frames saved by this makes combo timings more lenient, or even possible at all. Kind of funny that @ MartinAW4 was mentioning something like this the other day, I didn't really think much of it at the time but I can definitely see it being a factor for Greninja and I'd imagine there's other little practical things other characters can get out of this at the very least.

What I really want to know is if this works on shield as well, it's not something I can really test myself on 3DS.

Yeah, I didn`t know this wasn`t known yet. I first noticed this 2 months ago when testing Greninja`s sweetspot Nair -> Utilt combo, so it worked even in the pre-patch 1.0.4. 3DS version. At very low %, it normally didn`t combo, but I noticed that when I landed at the same time as Nair connected, I had no end lag and could make the combo work. This is also the only way to make Nair -> Ftilt combo work at 0%.
But because Nair has the lowest landing lag among Greninja`s aerials, the difference was barely noticeable, so I didn`t think it was very useful considering how strict the timing for this technique was.

However 3 days ago, while testing Fair combos, I noticed that this also works with Greninja`s Fair. Since it has more landing lag than Nair, the difference was a lot more noticeable and it made combos like Fair -> Fair or Fair -> Dash Attack -> Fair possible. That`s when I realized that it probably isn`t just a Nair glitch, but it probably works with all non-projectile aerials that can land at the same time they hit.

The way I think it works is that if you land at the same time you connect an aerial, the landing lag from the aerial starts to subtract while you are performing the attack. So once the attack ends, you will be left with that much less landing lag or none at all if the landing lag is shorter than the animation of the attack like Greninja`s Nair and Fair.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@ Supermodel From Paris @Shaya @ Tobi_Whatever

Dsmash -> FC Nair -> upB with ZSS ... could it be a thing? Even uair as a combo finisher that leads into KOs at higher percent or with rage would be pretty hype but a guaranteed upB would probably take the cake.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

@ Supermodel From Paris @Shaya @ Tobi_Whatever

Dsmash -> FC Nair -> upB with ZSS ... could it be a thing? Even uair as a combo finisher that leads into KOs at higher percent or with rage would be pretty hype but a guaranteed upB would probably take the cake.

This is already a thing even without the cancel but with the cancel we would have a wider percent range to perform this as a true combo.

 

[icraq]

just figured out how to do it with rosalina's back air
isnt easy but it's a thing. combos into ftilt so far, with or without luma

edit: gonna wait a while before i start making claims, need to confirm it a bit more and not get too excited

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yoshi's FC Bair 1 seems to open up a lot of follow-ups that could be guaranteed until a certain amount of percent where it starts to inflict too much knockback. It seem pretty easy to frame cancel the move too.

I've tried it with Doc fair and the only thing I could get was fair -> jab at low % against heaviweights and it was hard to time correctly because of how much statup lag the move has. Peach FC fair -> side B looks like it can work at percent where fair -> DA would no longer work but it also seems to work mostly against heavy characters against whom Peach probably has better combo options.

As far as combos are concerned, it seems like Ganon, Yoshi, ZSS and Falco could be among the big winners of this discovery. But I think we should also look at what FC aerials look like against shields. In Izaw's video we could see Falco performing FC dair -> dtilt against a shield and it didn't look like the opponent had a lot of time to react in between the hits. This could open up a plethora of options, largely depending on the frame advantage you get from hitting a shield with FC aerials.

 

[Smog Frog]

please dont have this work with every air move in the game, i dont want to have to learn this with sonic =(

 

[PLATA]

Wii Fit Trainer seems to be able to do it as well, but I can't find anything else useful with her other than true comboing into her dash attack. Still pretty good.

 

[Darklink401]

So does this only work with aerials that have long hitstuns? If so, I should practice this with marth...

 

[Pazx]

So does this only work with aerials that have long hitstuns? If so, I should practice this with marth...

Our current understanding is sketchy at best however we believe this works with all moves, it is only noticeable however on moves with high hitstun.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The most plausible explanation is that the [shield-] hitlag of an aerial move is being obsoleted by the simultaneously occuring landing lag. This reduces the overall amount of frames that the aerial takes while the hitstun of the move remains the same making it possible for moves that a.) have high enough hitstun b.) low knockback or c.) a combination of both to lead into guaranteed followups. So while all aerial moves have an FC point, not all of them will lead to guaranteed follow-ups.

Sonic could easily among the characters who gets guaranteed Dash Attacks out of FC Fair variations.

 

[Darklink401]

Our current understanding is sketchy at best however we believe this works with all moves, it is only noticeable however on moves with high hitstun.

I can only imagine the Marth dair to usmash possibilities <3

The fast fall has to be during the hitlag right?

 

[BestTeaMaker]

Hey, is this similar to how multihit aerials can ground opponents when you fastfall with certain timing? I remember this because it was how Sheik and DDD can do psuedo-chaingrabs, as discovered way back when during the 3DS's release. I mention this because this seems to be somewhat similar in execution.

 

[Robin1613]

labbing it up with shulk to see what I find.

 

[Omni]

Hm. I'll explore this more when I get home. This would be gdlk if it worked with shields but still great without that option.

Seems like it would work well as a mix-up with empty jumps and whiff baits aside from the obvious strong punishes.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

The most plausible explanation is that the [shield-] hitlag of an aerial move is being obsoleted by the simultaneously occuring landing lag.

Other way around.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This would be gdlk if it worked with shields but still great without that option.

It does work with shields because the landing lag gets obsoleted by in the same way that regular hitlag does but it's probably impossibe to get a hit-confirm after attacking an opponent's shield because the shield stun and the shield hitlag of a move are virtually always equal.

It's possible though that performing a FC aerial on shield could lead to a situation that favors the attacker. That depends on the frame data though, something I lack the tools to look into in depth.

Edit: Ninjad. I've successfully managed to confuse myself >_<

 

[BestTeaMaker]

Hey, is this similar to how multihit aerials can ground opponents when you fastfall with certain timing? I remember this because it was how Sheik and DDD can do psuedo-chaingrabs, as discovered way back when during the 3DS's release. I mention this because this seems to be somewhat similar in execution.

To add on to this, does this also have to do with how you can fastfall > aerial > fastfall?

 

[Thinkaman]

Hey, is this similar to how multihit aerials can ground opponents when you fastfall with certain timing? I remember this because it was how Sheik and DDD can do psuedo-chaingrabs, as discovered way back when during the 3DS's release. I mention this because this seems to be somewhat similar in execution.

No, that was related to special hitbox angle + just landing before the final hitbox came out.

 

[FallofBrawl]

All of these options, except Zelda toes (if those work), have slower startup than human reaction time. Moves like these can be blocked on reaction, which is why they are only generally used for dodge punish.

Except Ganon dair -> u-smash (which does 40-43 damage total), any combo discussed here offers less reward than typical hard read roll/dodge punishes, despite taking more commitment and vastly less reliable execution.

Additionally all these dair combos--including Ganon's--can be foiled by a tech.



Most anti-air moves have faster startup than human reaction time. You don't have the freedom to react and retcon your committed action.


Like seriously, we're talking about a ~30 frame action that loses to EVERY attack, EVERY grab, and EVERY defensive input in the game, as well as just jumping or moving. Literally the only way you can land such a move is if the opponent sits there and does nothing.

Flame Choke is the only remotely plausible use for this I can see, and even then it's sketchy. I can reliably do it with SH dair, but can't do it at all with FH Ganon dair despite an hour of trying. (This is the important one--you need FH dair to avoid+hit get-up-attacks, which would be the most plausible use for this)

Dude...It's called reading...and mix-ups...

 

[Thinkaman]

Dude...It's called reading...and mix-ups...

As we've stated, this is an extremely difficult and precise hard punish that doesn't actually give higher reward than easier options on anyone but Ganon, unless I'm mistaken.

As for mix-ups, I'm not sure that this word means what you think it means. An option that loses to everything can't be a mix-up.

Edit:

Example. One of the most effective moves for this is Ness bair. At very low %s (and only very low%s mind you), you can follow a hitlag-landing Ness bair with a Ness f-tilt. This extremely challenging ~30 frame punish nets you a grand total of 24 damage.

You get the same or slightly more from a partially charged F-smash, at comparable speed.

 

[FallofBrawl]

As for mix-ups, I'm not sure that this word means what you think it means. An option that loses to everything can't be a mix-up.

But the least expected option in the opponents head nevertheless. I wouldn't even do it 10% of the time. Only like once every two sets. But when it comes to punishing, it's always a viable option. Testing it with Ike's Dair now and Charizards aerials

 

[FallofBrawl]

Ignore this I'm very incapable on my phone.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

Another thing we should probably test. We've been seeing this done against opponents on the ground. What if they're in the air as well?

 

[Thinkaman]

Another thing we should probably test. We've been seeing this done against opponents on the ground. What if they're in the air as well?

I mean, it'd be hard to land the hit in this position on virtually any character mentioned (only on a platform?), but there's no mechanical reason it shouldn't work the same.

 

[dragontamer]

@ Thinkaman

This thread is about a quirk in the combo system of this game. As you've stated, this "option" should not be the combo starter.

A practical application... I can imagine that this can be used as the guaranteed punish off of the 3rd hit from a low% jab-lock situation. Not that I've seen jab-lock occur very often in tournament play... but its available. And probably something that people can practice.

 

[Darklink401]

@ Thinkaman

This thread is about a quirk in the combo system of this game. As you've stated, this "option" should not be the combo starter.

A practical application... I can imagine that this can be used as the guaranteed punish off of the 3rd hit from a low% jab-lock situation. Not that I've seen jab-lock occur very often in tournament play... but its available. And probably something that people can practice.

Wasn't it used often in Brawl?

We should be seeing it more often as the meta develops.

ThxSmashcorner

XD

 

[_Magus_]

Is there a compilation of all the moves that behave this way that we know of currently?

 

[Linkshot]

@ Thinkaman

This thread is about a quirk in the combo system of this game. As you've stated, this "option" should not be the combo starter.

A practical application... I can imagine that this can be used as the guaranteed punish off of the 3rd hit from a low% jab-lock situation. Not that I've seen jab-lock occur very often in tournament play... but its available. And probably something that people can practice.

I was just about to mention it's a great punish after forced getup, yeah.

Anyway, somebody else asked if it works on aerial opponents, and I believe that Marth's fAir FCs against aerial opponent due to where the hitbox starts. Basically, just make your hitbox connect on the same frame the game told you to land. I think some aerials don't have the right timing, because I couldn't find a valid frame for SH FF Sonic bAir. It either hit early or landed without a hitbox, but I had the same results with Falcon's Knee, so maybe there's just a different FF frame.

 

[Darklink401]

Is there a compilation of all the moves that behave this way that we know of currently?

It's been recently discovered, so I doubt it, but mechanically, it seems that every mood can do this, but it really only benefits moves with a lot of hitlag.


Also, speakin of the Falcon knee, could this be used to chain knees? O.o

 

[FallofBrawl]

Also, speakin of the Falcon knee, could this be used to chain knees? O.o

HYESZ.
Can someone list all the characters and the moves FC benefits?

 

[Kwam$tack$]

Does this work with mario's fair? if it does then maybe im misunderstanding how to do it

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So I tried a bit with ZSS on Diddy and could connect nAir with dSmash, jab and uSpecial at 10% and with fAir without running at 80%. It's really hard to do though, Falco felt easier.

 

[Swoops]

After watching the initial Falco DAir T, and believing that this wasn't possible on shield, I was mostly in the same boat as @ Thinkaman

We would only occasionally see this in higher-level play, as it isn't anywhere close to an approach option but rather a limited combo enabler. With some creativity it will allow a good number of characters to have new combo opportunities.

Now that I'm thinking about it more, and if we all understand this as we THINK we understand it, this could have a lot of subtle changes to how we play. If this DOES work on shield (and don't think anyone has a reason it wouldn't yet, as there is still a collision detection and shield lag occurring,) then even if an aerial only has 3 frames of hitlag, it could just barely push certain aerials into safe territory.

If the theorized formula is correct: [landing lag - hitlag] = new landing lag .... then even 3 frames of shield lag could potentially make an aerial with 15f landing lag into one with 12f landing lag. That's pretty huge depending on the aerial.

...but that's all theory . I need to get home so I can test this stuff!

 

[P2W]

Oh snap this is amazing! Gonna test every character now!

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi's FC Bair 1 seems to open up a lot of follow-ups that could be guaranteed until a certain amount of percent where it starts to inflict too much knockback. It seem pretty easy to frame cancel the move too.

Trying to use Bair at all is just too spooky for me. Whether I get it or not, I dunno if I wanna risk it.

 

[Darklink401]

Trying to use Bair at all is just too spooky for me. Whether I get it or not, I dunno if I wanna risk it.

But it's so dramatic and cool, cuz of so much hitlag.