Frame Cancel

[Ffamran]

I can now die happy.

No! You must live and discover other disgusting combos! Think of the people, Lavani!

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm not getting this at all in training mode even with 1/4 speed advance. I'm pretty sure I'm hitting with Captain Falcon's knee the frame before it lands and am not seeing anything cancel. I do a short hop, input a c-stick'd fair, and input a fast fall soon thereafter. I see nearly Falcon's entire back foot in the ground which implies to me I hit on the last possible frame before landing, but I still stall in the air for the entire hitlag and have a very long landing lag after I hit the ground post-hitlag. Does the fast fall have to be input at a very precise time? Is this strange bug somehow disrupted by using 1/4 speed advance in training mode?

Also, not to rain on parades, but I have serious doubts this will be useful. It seems clear that hitting exactly 1 frame before landing is necessary regardless, and that's just really limiting since it gives your opponent maximum time to block or anti-air. It would be good to understand how this works in very fine detail, but it seems likely most useful for shenanigans and not solid gameplay unless there's some super clever combo that starts with something like a throw and can force this situation without the defender being able to do anything about it.

 

[Linkshot]

Wonder if this works with Mario/Doc's F-air...

If it does, it'd open up so many set-ups for them.

Can't get anything out of fAir. bAir and maybe uAir seemed to hit a frame.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Does this work if someone shields the move? If so, then maybe trying Falcon's knee into a shield and subsequently grabbing. It would be pretty radical if that produced a grab trap.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

So what I'm getting from this is, Lucina gets shafted by her lack of hitlag modifiers again? Lol.

 

[Nevergreen]

Does this work if someone shields the move? If so, then maybe trying Falcon's knee into a shield and subsequently grabbing. It would be pretty radical if that produced a grab trap.

Supposedly, it's impossible for a move to frame cancel if it hits a shield.

 

[robinpup]

This is perfect with dk down air!!!!!

 

[Ffamran]

I'm not getting this at all in training mode even with 1/4 speed advance. I'm pretty sure I'm hitting with Captain Falcon's knee the frame before it lands and am not seeing anything cancel. I do a short hop, input a c-stick'd fair, and input a fast fall soon thereafter. I see nearly Falcon's entire back foot in the ground which implies to me I hit on the last possible frame before landing, but I still stall in the air for the entire hitlag and have a very long landing lag after I hit the ground post-hitlag. Does the fast fall have to be input at a very precise time? Is this strange bug somehow disrupted by using 1/4 speed advance in training mode?

Also, not to rain on parades, but I have serious doubts this will be useful. It seems clear that hitting exactly 1 frame before landing is necessary regardless, and that's just really limiting since it gives your opponent maximum time to block or anti-air. It would be good to understand how this works in very fine detail, but it seems likely most useful for shenanigans and not solid gameplay unless there's some super clever combo that starts with something like a throw and can force this situation without the defender being able to do anything about it.

I believe it's very strict timing which is why jump-canceling in DMC is considered amazing and a high level technique. Granted, we're dealing with less inputs and moves and SBB isn't as hectic as DMC.

Practice and you'll get it. For some advice pick a target. Right now, I know that I should be hitting Luigi's foot and Falco should be almost touching the ground when his Dair hits. Oh, and with most things, come back to it later rather than frustrating over it.

As for applications, it's going to require incredible reads, timing, and positioning for most moves. Few people are going to throw out Captain Falcon's Knee without some setup and Falco's Dair already requires good timing. The thing is that knowing such a thing is possible means say, Ganondorf's Dair landing isn't it, nope, Ganondorf's going to throw out an Up Smash almost immediately. If you didn't know that, then something else would happen that would require more time which is fine, but a sudden burst of damage and knockback will throw off a lot of people.

 

[dragontamer]

I think AA is talking about the opponent's options.

Virtually every charcter has a solid anti-air option. Most up-tilts have some form of invincibility. Shiek's USmash has a lot of invincibility frames on it, so the opponent will be trying to hit you with the top of Shiek's arms. If you must land a hit, and you must land it frame-perfect on the lowest possible point, then the easy answer is for the opponent to just utilt you out of every attempt.

In fact, most opponents will be utilting anyway, as utilt often has head invincibility akin to Shiek's up-smash.

Lets do Mario vs Gannondorf. How are you going to land the DAir from Gannondorf against Mario's foot... when Mario is USmashing you with his face?

I think the best use of this trick is to fast-fall to punish your opponent's whiffed anti-air. But that is an awful lot of precision in a tense situation.

So what I'm getting from this is, Lucina gets shafted by her lack of hitlag modifiers again? Lol.

At the distance, I think Lucina actually has the advantage vs Marth with this technique. For whatever its worth.

Marth can probably do this effectively off of Fair, but that's about it. Lucina can Dair, and with 1x hitlag modifier she'll get a better recovery than Marth's 0.7x hitlag modifier (non-sweetspot).

 

[Lavani]

I'm not getting this at all in training mode even with 1/4 speed advance. I'm pretty sure I'm hitting with Captain Falcon's knee the frame before it lands and am not seeing anything cancel. I do a short hop, input a c-stick'd fair, and input a fast fall soon thereafter. I see nearly Falcon's entire back foot in the ground which implies to me I hit on the last possible frame before landing, but I still stall in the air for the entire hitlag and have a very long landing lag after I hit the ground post-hitlag. Does the fast fall have to be input at a very precise time? Is this strange bug somehow disrupted by using 1/4 speed advance in training mode?

Also, not to rain on parades, but I have serious doubts this will be useful. It seems clear that hitting exactly 1 frame before landing is necessary regardless, and that's just really limiting since it gives your opponent maximum time to block or anti-air. It would be good to understand how this works in very fine detail, but it seems likely most useful for shenanigans and not solid gameplay unless there's some super clever combo that starts with something like a throw and can force this situation without the defender being able to do anything about it.

There isn't anything tricky about it, all I can say is if you aren't going into the landing animation mid-hitlag then you aren't hitting late enough with it. I guess it could be something with 1/4 speed though, I can try it and see if I manage anything. (EDIT: It works still with 1/4x speed, but I actually find it a lot harder to time right than 1/2x or even 1x)

I can't see this not being useful, though maybe not in the ways the gifs I've been posting in the thread so far would imply. Speaking as a Greninja main, sh nair/fair are quite useful moves, and the frames saved by this makes combo timings more lenient, or even possible at all. Kind of funny that @MartinAW4 was mentioning something like this the other day, I didn't really think much of it at the time but I can definitely see it being a factor for Greninja and I'd imagine there's other little practical things other characters can get out of this at the very least.

What I really want to know is if this works on shield as well, it's not something I can really test myself on 3DS.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I think what everyone's trying to say is you aren't bypassing/canceling any lag, you're just experiencing your landing lag DURING your hit lag, which results in a shorter time that ignores inputs

I understand this. What I got from the user's post though was that they were saying that you are cancelling hitlag with this, which isn't what's happening.

At the moment the mechanics of this are either

-you experience frames of landing lag during hitlag frames, effectively subtracting from your actual landing lag (likely?)
or
-landing on a frame during which an aerial attack connects unsets unk_170, which means you are turning off landing lag while still hitting with your attack and not having to wait for the autocancel window (not as likely?)

Though with what Lavani has shown with Ganondorf's DAir, it seems to be the first one. To me it doesn't look like Ganondorf is going into his autocancel animation; he's going into his DAir landing lag animation, but its duration is cut significantly short.

 

[Ffamran]

@ D dragontamer ,
Which is kind of what I was getting at. It's one of those moments where if there's an opportunity for it and it connects, then it's going to be devastating. It's not something that people are going to throw out left and right, but it's... it's like the ultimate punish, read, or something. It's also like a huge mix up of, "What just happened?", for the other player.

It's why I feel like everything has it's purpose even if it's a niche or very situational purpose like that Little Mac air combo. If it connects, then Little Mac is definitely going to get a stock, but it's not something people will aim for or do all the time. If it happens, then it happens.

 

[Linkshot]

So...more than Falcon's Knee can do this. I got it with bAir (led into a cross-stage grab) and uAir (led into true combo knee that killed, and a grab at earlier percents). dAir has done it, too, just like the Dorf, and you get the glorious Stomp -> Knee.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Something just occurred to me: would this be possible with aerials that are articles? Specifically Villager's slingshots. My first thought is no, since the hitboxes are entirely independent of the animation, but if it is it would mean glorious pellet spam

 

[Lavani]

Something just occurred to me: would this be possible with aerials that are articles? Specifically Villager's slingshots. My first thought is no, since the hitboxes are entirely independent of the animation, but if it is it would mean glorious pellet spam

The user doesn't suffer hitlag from their projectiles hitting, so no.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I believe it's very strict timing which is why jump-canceling in DMC is considered amazing and a high level technique. Granted, we're dealing with less inputs and moves and SBB isn't as hectic as DMC.

Practice and you'll get it. For some advice pick a target. Right now, I know that I should be hitting Luigi's foot and Falco should be almost touching the ground when his Dair hits. Oh, and with most things, come back to it later rather than frustrating over it.

As for applications, it's going to require incredible reads, timing, and positioning for most moves. Few people are going to throw out Captain Falcon's Knee without some setup and Falco's Dair already requires good timing. The thing is that knowing such a thing is possible means say, Ganondorf's Dair landing isn't it, nope, Ganondorf's going to throw out an Up Smash almost immediately. If you didn't know that, then something else would happen that would require more time which is fine, but a sudden burst of damage and knockback will throw off a lot of people.

I'm not doing this in full speed. I want to see mechanics right now in a precise way, not develop tech skill. That's why I'm asking about 1/4 speed advance mode, the only mode I'm experimenting in. I want to know precise "hit this button on this frame and then this button on this frame and this specific thing will happen", the precise mathematical rules of what execution gets what result. Right now I'm just not seeing it happen even trying to hit the frame before I land; hitlag suspends gravity and if you land on the exact frame you would hit you get the SFX but no hitbox (I've seen this happen a lot of times). It's possible I'm just always missing the one precise frame I need an either hitting 2f before I land or getting the no hit from landing on the hit frame every time, but I've tried a lot of times (again, in the frame advance mode, not in real time) so I'm thinking there may be some very specific rules about what buttons you hit when here and when you have to begin the fastfall (which makes the approaches with this even more predictable and this even less useful, but this is an interesting enough mechanic that it would be great to know how it works).

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Also, not to rain on parades, but I have serious doubts this will be useful. It seems clear that hitting exactly 1 frame before landing is necessary regardless, and that's just really limiting since it gives your opponent maximum time to block or anti-air. It would be good to understand how this works in very fine detail, but it seems likely most useful for shenanigans and not solid gameplay unless there's some super clever combo that starts with something like a throw and can force this situation without the defender being able to do anything about it.

Flame Choke

 

[Indigo Jeans]

The user doesn't suffer hitlag from their projectiles hitting, so no.

Thats why you have the pellet fastfall so it cuts its landing lag :^)

It's just as I feared ;_;7

 

[Lavani]

Thats why you have the pellet fastfall so it cuts its landing lag :^)

It's just as I feared ;_;7

Think of it this way, your slingshot cancels its hitlag in advance without precise landings required!

 

[FallofBrawl]

So it seems that this doesn't work with aerials that use projectiles, aerials that cause characters to fast fall, and multihitting aerials...
Is that right?

 

[Ffamran]

I'm not doing this in full speed. I want to see mechanics right now in a precise way, not develop tech skill. That's why I'm asking about 1/4 speed advance mode, the only mode I'm experimenting in. I want to know precise "hit this button on this frame and then this button on this frame and this specific thing will happen", the precise mathematical rules of what execution gets what result. Right now I'm just not seeing it happen even trying to hit the frame before I land; hitlag suspends gravity and if you land on the exact frame you would hit you get the SFX but no hitbox (I've seen this happen a lot of times). It's possible I'm just always missing the one precise frame I need an either hitting 2f before I land or getting the no hit from landing on the hit frame every time, but I've tried a lot of times (again, in the frame advance mode, not in real time) so I'm thinking there may be some very specific rules about what buttons you hit when here and when you have to begin the fastfall (which makes the approaches with this even more predictable and this even less useful, but this is an interesting enough mechanic that it would be great to know how it works).

One thing I can say is that if you do it correctly with Falco, he leans back more that usual. Maybe you can reference that since it seems Ganondorf's Dair and Captain Falcon's Knee have subtle differences like looking faster and connecting other moves as true combos whereas Falco leans back and his foot sort of looks like it's about to or is clipping thought the floor.

 

[Trifroze]

Has anyone tried if this works with shieldstun the same way?

 

[Thinkaman]

Sorry, but I'm gonna join AA in being a wet blanket on this one. This glitch seems profoundly useless. Super hard to land, absurdly difficult to execute, in most applications techable, and loses to literally any imaginable opponent action.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Sorry, but I'm gonna join AA in being a wet blanket on this one. This glitch seems profoundly useless. Super hard to land, absurdly difficult to execute, in most applications techable, and loses to literally any imaginable opponent action.

I see it more as a punish option rather than an approaching option, so not super useless.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Once a Ganondorf player has the timing down, all it'll take is a read out of Flame Choke to get it, so it'll certainly be usable in Ganondorf's case.

 

[Signia]

I think AA is talking about the opponent's options.

Virtually every charcter has a solid anti-air option. Most up-tilts have some form of invincibility. Shiek's USmash has a lot of invincibility frames on it, so the opponent will be trying to hit you with the top of Shiek's arms. If you must land a hit, and you must land it frame-perfect on the lowest possible point, then the easy answer is for the opponent to just utilt you out of every attempt.

In fact, most opponents will be utilting anyway, as utilt often has head invincibility akin to Shiek's up-smash.

Lets do Mario vs Gannondorf. How are you going to land the DAir from Gannondorf against Mario's foot... when Mario is USmashing you with his face?

I think the best use of this trick is to fast-fall to punish your opponent's whiffed anti-air. But that is an awful lot of precision in a tense situation.



At the distance, I think Lucina actually has the advantage vs Marth with this technique. For whatever its worth.

Marth can probably do this effectively off of Fair, but that's about it. Lucina can Dair, and with 1x hitlag modifier she'll get a better recovery than Marth's 0.7x hitlag modifier (non-sweetspot).

Sorry, but I'm gonna join AA in being a wet blanket on this one. This glitch seems profoundly useless. Super hard to land, absurdly difficult to execute, in most applications techable, and loses to literally any imaginable opponent action.

What about when an opponent can't do any action? Nah... surely there are no inactionable states in the game. Then punishes would exist.

...This is obviously useful for punishes.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Think of it this way, your slingshot cancels its hitlag in advance without precise landings required!

T-thanks Lavani, you always know just what to say

Sorry, but I'm gonna join AA in being a wet blanket on this one. This glitch seems profoundly useless. Super hard to land, absurdly difficult to execute, in most applications techable, and loses to literally any imaginable opponent action.

The mechanics themselves are certainly interesting though

 

[AvoiD]

Anyone try it with Marth/Lucina's fair/dair?

 

[Timbers]

This may work with Fox's bair into utilt strings at lower percents? Several times I've ff bair'd into seamless utilts without any landing lag. Felt pretty great, but I never put too much thought into it other than bair's landing lag being glossed over by hitlag duration.

Not nearly as effective as Ganon dair or Falcon knee, but it's interesting that it seems rather universal.

 

[FallofBrawl]

People are acting like aerials have never been landed before this was discovered. If an opponent doesn't shield, well damn they get punished with 50% damage. If they shield, then empty hop into grab. If they do anti-air tilts, outprioritize them with an aerial, air dodge, or just find another approach. It's getting thrown into trash after around 4 hours of it being discovered, test it out, experiment, then come to conclusions.

 

[lijero13ss]

So let me see if i got this right:

You pretty much just delay your aerial right as your about to hit the ground?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sorry, but I'm gonna join AA in being a wet blanket on this one. This glitch seems profoundly useless. Super hard to land, absurdly difficult to execute, in most applications techable, and loses to literally any imaginable opponent action.

At the very least it's good for punishes.

But this is super easy to do with several aerials including ZSS nair and even up air. And given how often you approach with those moves as ZSS, I can't really buy into the idea that this is as useless as you want to make it sound.

It's no L-cancel, sure, but it's pretty strong.

 

[Thinkaman]

People are acting like aerials have never been landed before this was discovered. If an opponent doesn't shield, well damn they get punished with 50% damage. If they shield, then empty hop into grab.

All of these options, except Zelda toes (if those work), have slower startup than human reaction time. Moves like these can be blocked on reaction, which is why they are only generally used for dodge punish.

Except Ganon dair -> u-smash (which does 40-43 damage total), any combo discussed here offers less reward than typical hard read roll/dodge punishes, despite taking more commitment and vastly less reliable execution.

Additionally all these dair combos--including Ganon's--can be foiled by a tech.

If they do anti-air tilts, out-prioritize them with an aerial, air dodge, or just find another approach.

Most anti-air moves have faster startup than human reaction time. You don't have the freedom to react and retcon your committed action.


Like seriously, we're talking about a ~30 frame action that loses to EVERY attack, EVERY grab, and EVERY defensive input in the game, as well as just jumping or moving. Literally the only way you can land such a move is if the opponent sits there and does nothing.

Flame Choke is the only remotely plausible use for this I can see, and even then it's sketchy. I can reliably do it with SH dair, but can't do it at all with FH Ganon dair despite an hour of trying. (This is the important one--you need FH dair to avoid+hit get-up-attacks, which would be the most plausible use for this)

Has anyone had any success with FH Ganon dair?

But this is super easy to do with several aerials including ZSS nair and even up air. And given how often you approach with those moves as ZSS, I can't really buy into the idea that this is as useless as you want to make it sound.

Hm, I haven't tried ZSS yet.

But as an approach this is laughable. It's literally spacing as poorly as possible.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Hm, I haven't tried ZSS yet.

But as an approach this is laughable. It's literally spacing as poorly as possible.

My understanding is that the spacing has nothing to do with it, but the frame it lands. For nair, maybe I can understand what you're saying, but uair? ZSS' uair hitbox starts in front of and below her on frame 6, which seems to make it a perfect candidate for this technique. There's a high chance I've done it on accident, lol.

Plus, even if you space it poorly, ZSS' falling uair is pretty safe

 

[Lavani]

Has anyone had any success with FH Ganon dair?

Just tried it, it works.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Plus we have stuns, so we have an easy time setting this up.

At the very least it's good for punishes.

But this is super easy to do with several aerials including ZSS nair and even up air. And given how often you approach with those moves as ZSS, I can't really buy into the idea that this is as useless as you want to make it sound.

It's no L-cancel, sure, but it's pretty strong.

Plus we have stuns, meaning easy setups for this. dSmash > SH nAir FF was working already.

 

[Thinkaman]

My understanding is that the spacing has nothing to do with it, but the frame it lands. For nair, maybe I can understand what you're saying, but uair? ZSS' uair hitbox starts in front of and below her on frame 6, which seems to make it a perfect candidate for this technique. There's a high chance I've done it on accident, lol.

Yeah I was thinking of nair; with uair I could see this.

But I thought this only worked on moves with significant hitlag? I mean in 1/4x speed on WiiU you can see what's happening clearly--the landing animation starts early during the hitlag. In most cases, the duration of hitstun is not going to be significant.

Plus we have stuns, meaning easy setups for this. dSmash > SH nAir FF was working already.

Hmm, interesting, but is this really the best punish here, compared to ZSS's other options? What does she get out of the Nair?

Just tried it, it works.

This might be tough, but can you describe how you are doing it?

If I try the frame Ganon's foot is jsut above the platform on Battlefield, I'm too early. However, if I try it the first frame after that, when his foot is touching the yellow middle part of the platform, it is too late.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Flame Choke is the only remotely plausible use for this I can see, and even then it's sketchy. I can reliably do it with SH dair, but can't do it at all with FH Ganon dair despite an hour of trying. (This is the important one--you need FH dair to avoid+hit get-up-attacks, which would be the most plausible use for this)

You can catch rolls, especially back rolls, with dair. Getup attacks won't be the only getup option you can punish with this.

 

[Thinkaman]

You can catch rolls, especially back rolls, with dair. Getup attacks won't be the only getup option you can punish with this.

Yup I thought I mentioned that. Looking back I didn't, oops.

 

[Shaya]

nair combos into dsmash, fair, uair, nair, running up smash, tilts, dash attack.

Its kinda that type of move. I'm pretty certain by default, ZSS players have probably been doing this with nair "accidentally" probably multiple times per match. I'm [generally] only trying to hit with it just before touching the ground