BestTeaMaker
Smash Apprentice
There's a certain rhythm to pulling this off. Too bad I'm not dextrous enough to do so consistently.
T^T
T^T
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Frame Cancel
- Thread starter Izaw
- Start date
Sxips
Smash Journeyman
Anybody test Wario with this.
Kwam$tack$
Smash Apprentice
we need a list of characters that it works on and which aerials it works for
Ryu_Ken
Ace Adventurer and Truth Seeker
This is pretty big. Gonna test with Link as soon as I get the chance.
The only way I can see this happening is if the opponent auto-cancelled the Dair into a Usmash. Don't get frame-canceling and auto-canceling confused.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
Dair has an AC window?
My bad then, didn't know it had one; that was probably what happened then.
CommanderPepper
Smash Cadet
I love the smell of technology in the morning. I'm gonna hit the lab with Zelda.
So if I understand this correctly, this tech occurs when you hit the ground the same frame your aerial connects, so the game starts counting both hitlag from hitting the opponent and the landing lag from hitting the ground. This means we only observe whatever landing lag is leftover from the hitlag.
If that's true, then I think it should still work to a lesser extent on shields. I don't know shield mechanics off the top of my head, but generally shieldstun is less than hitlag in Smash 4 correct? Then we'd still get lower landing lag, but the opponent has more time to react because they're stunned for less.
The last thing I want to ask about his how necessary it is to land with the first frame of the attack. By my above understanding of frame cancelling, it doesn't depend on what frame in the aerial hits the opponent. It only depends on the hitbox connecting on that frame, which in most cases (and by far the easiest case) happens to be the first frame of the attack that hits. I still suck at performing this, but I think it could work in the middle of the aerial if an opponent spotdodges and it ends when you hit the ground. A bit more convoluted of a setup, and way more situational, but it might be something to look into to punish early spotdodges.
If that's true, then I think it should still work to a lesser extent on shields. I don't know shield mechanics off the top of my head, but generally shieldstun is less than hitlag in Smash 4 correct? Then we'd still get lower landing lag, but the opponent has more time to react because they're stunned for less.
The last thing I want to ask about his how necessary it is to land with the first frame of the attack. By my above understanding of frame cancelling, it doesn't depend on what frame in the aerial hits the opponent. It only depends on the hitbox connecting on that frame, which in most cases (and by far the easiest case) happens to be the first frame of the attack that hits. I still suck at performing this, but I think it could work in the middle of the aerial if an opponent spotdodges and it ends when you hit the ground. A bit more convoluted of a setup, and way more situational, but it might be something to look into to punish early spotdodges.
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Mayday
Smash Cadet
Been working on frame cancel stomp to Knee and I think you might be able to frame cancel the knee into another knee at low percents
Ffamran
The Smooth Devil Mod
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2014
- Messages
- 14,629
Lavani already found this; Lavani's life is complete as of now.
I can now die happy.
bair>farore was the very first thought I had when I saw this thread, but Zelda's so floaty it makes it annoyingly hard to frame cancel with her :<
Mayday
Smash Cadet
I'm trying to take it one step further. Going for frame cancel stomp to frame cancel knee to knee. Not just knee to kneeLavani already found this; Lavani's life is complete as of now.
Ffamran
The Smooth Devil Mod
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2014
- Messages
- 14,629
Oh, well, good luck with that.
Firefoxx
Smash Journeyman
I was working on this for like half an hour and it seems that if frame canceling has an effect on stomp, its a really small one. Like I could true combo frame canceled stomp into knee on ZSS at 63% and normal stomp into knee at 65%. Also you have the additional problem of trying to frame cancel the stomp without getting the sourspot, which seems to come out like 30% of the time
Mayday
Smash Cadet
Yep, same problem. I got a stomp to knee and looked like I could go for another knee at one point at around 10% on Fox. Wonder if I just got a knock down on Fox with the stomp and didn't realize it
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hype machine
Smash Journeyman
This is like 7x harder to do then l canceling and becomes 20x harder on a moving target. And super punishable if the target puts up a shield before you hit. I rate 6/10 a decent find btw has anyone tried this on diddy before?
Firefoxx
Smash Journeyman
Probably. I honestly believe that this does work on stomp, but only on the sourspot Edit: which doesnt help anything
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Luigi player
Smash Master
I wish there were any buffer scenarious where this can work so you can do it easily, but since you have to fastfall as well something like that probably won't exist. I think I've tested Wario doing a full jump double uair (or some other aerial to uair) and it looks like the 2nd uair has a hitbox out before landing, but it sadly doesn't, even though you see him clap his hands and hear the sound of that.
Maybe a character has something similar to this, but with an easy fastfall timing in there somewhere... (and obviously where the 2nd aerial action would have a hitbox out before landing)
Maybe a character has something similar to this, but with an easy fastfall timing in there somewhere... (and obviously where the 2nd aerial action would have a hitbox out before landing)
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Mayday
Smash Cadet
Looks like it. Pretty sure I just had a soft stomp to jab true combo at 0% (confirmed. Had a 10 hit combo after stomp + one string of jabs which is 9 hits by itself). Don't think that usually works
EDIT: Well I'm convinced long true combos are possible in Smash 4, you just have to be a TAS robot....
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I've done it once with the Knee actually.
It seems to legitimately be every aerial in the game.
The funny thing about this though is wasn't there a person who played the 3DS e3 build or whatever and stated they were able to do this while playing and we all panned him off for it not being what he thinks it is (just low landing lag, but we only were referencing a random game play video for it).
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Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Ya, a guy on the Ike boards tested Fair/Dair/Uair and claimed all of them worked. Bair is pointless in testing because auto-canceling, Nair is in a similar boat.
Fair combos into the same things with or without the cancel, Dair can combo into Jab. That's about it.
Mayday
Smash Cadet
Well the Smash 4 punish game just got a whole lot more interesting
Guys, please stop asking "can character X do this?". Yes, character X can do this. Frame canceling works with every aerial of every character as long as you manage to have the [shield-] hitlag of the move coincide with its landing lag. That's it. It's a universal tech and doesn't depend on character or the move he uses.
Edit: There might be exceptions due to fraudulent AC frames like Pac-Man's bair though
The question you should be asking is which FC aerials can lead into a guaranteed follow-up and which FC aerials are particularly strong against shields.
Edit: There might be exceptions due to fraudulent AC frames like Pac-Man's bair though
The question you should be asking is which FC aerials can lead into a guaranteed follow-up and which FC aerials are particularly strong against shields.
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I will, and once we have all the moves that are noticable, I'll make a compilation video
ZSS bair and nairGuys, please stop asking "can character X do this?". Yes, character X can do this. Frame canceling works with every aerial of every character as long as you manage to have the [shield-] hitlag of the move coincide with its landing lag. That's it. It's a universal tech and doesn't depend on character or the move he uses.
The question you should be asking is which FC aerials can lead into a guaranteed follow-up and which FC aerials are particularly strong against shields.
Most 2 frame hit aerials (there's quite a few).
Problem is that you tend to try to space differently when expecting shield or a direct hit because shields project forward.
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Mayday
Smash Cadet
Falcon's soft stomp might lead into a free grab too. Going to need more testing to be sure though
Oh but if this is by any chance an intended-ish mechanic, it could be due to how air to ground specials act as if they were happening on the ground rather than in the air. Similar concept of how landing during an attack incurs a grounded state which has a weird interaction with aerials.
Yeah, I just edited my post because there are obvious exceptions. Some areials have AC frames before the hitbox even appears which means that it's probably not possible to frame cancel it.ZSS bair and nair
This explains why when first learning to combo in SSB3DS some attacks I referred to how to get combos to work I'd say "do it like Charizard's D-air" - because hitting as close to the ground and fast-falling it got combos (KO options) to work and attacks like Samus' and C. Falcon's D-airs were similar in how to get combos to work (again looking at KO options with them).
Of course now I can see the similarity that they were all high hitlag attacks... so this is great as it puts a lot of things in perspective, now instead of treating attacks on an individual basis they can all be looked at as a frame-cancel option. It's like finding electrostatic and magnetism to be the same electrostatic force, haha...
Except one problem... according to the current understanding, there are no frames that are "canceled". The landing lag is counted down as normal except during the simultaneous hitlag countdown essentially freeing two birds with one key. Is there going to be an update to the name so it doesn't throw people off or is it just going to stay because why not?
Of course now I can see the similarity that they were all high hitlag attacks... so this is great as it puts a lot of things in perspective, now instead of treating attacks on an individual basis they can all be looked at as a frame-cancel option. It's like finding electrostatic and magnetism to be the same electrostatic force, haha...
Except one problem... according to the current understanding, there are no frames that are "canceled". The landing lag is counted down as normal except during the simultaneous hitlag countdown essentially freeing two birds with one key. Is there going to be an update to the name so it doesn't throw people off or is it just going to stay because why not?
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I think what's happening here is that if you time it right, you can basically land during hitlag instead of after it. Perhaps you touch the ground and "land" while "shaking" a little during hitlag. Either that or the game doesn't check for when you land until after it checks for hitbox collisions.
Based on how this works I would say that it should work on shields, but since their shieldhitlag ignores your hitlag modifiers, the best moves for this exploit (moves with tons of hitlag) are still very unsafe on block. However, I think you could potentially make aerials with normal hitlag safer on block with this technique. The difference in safety would be around like 5-10 frames of lag for most moves.
Based on how this works I would say that it should work on shields, but since their shieldhitlag ignores your hitlag modifiers, the best moves for this exploit (moves with tons of hitlag) are still very unsafe on block. However, I think you could potentially make aerials with normal hitlag safer on block with this technique. The difference in safety would be around like 5-10 frames of lag for most moves.
Balgorxz
Smash Journeyman
Falco's dair is the easiest one by far for me, I can do it consistently after 15 minutes.
trying to work on falcon now but it's gonna take some time.
trying to work on falcon now but it's gonna take some time.
I find the term "frame cancel" to be quite appropriate actually even though technically they aren't being "canceled". They are being rendered obsolete through a very specific timing which amounts to pretty much the same thing.
Dr. Tuen
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2009
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- 1,396
- 3DS FC
- 0559-7294-8323
If the naming were up to me, I'd call it "Frame Stacking." If the theory is that the two kinds of frames (hitstun/lag) are happening at the same time, that's essentially what you're doing -- stacking frames.I find the term "frame cancel" to be quite appropriate actually even though technically they aren't being "canceled". They are being rendered obsolete through a very specific timing which amounts to pretty much the same thing.
At the risk of becoming the resident negative nancy of this thread, "Frame Cancel" is the worst, most vague name possible.
Especially since nothing is technically cancelled! Voltaire would be proud.
Add "landing" somewhere and we've got a way better, actually descriptive name.
Maybe Hitlag Landing Cancel would be a better and more descriptive name?
Regralht
Smash Apprentice
What are some example follow-ups that you can you get? I've been trying out all of Yoshi's aerials, but they seem difficult to FC (either I haven't managed to do it once, or the benefit is quite small). I can get Ganon's Dair and Falcon's Fair at least somewhat consistently...
I'd love it if you could post a video or something.
I only have a 3DS and no recording tools whatsoever. I could do bair -> dair, nair, DA and dash usmash on different percent and it'd all connect against a CPU in training mod before he could make a move. But I only glimpsed through things so I can't give you any detailed info. All I can tell is that Yoshi's bair 1 has a number of follow-ups that have to be guaranteed at certain percent.
Frame Stacking sounds odd and counter intuitive to me because it implies that the overall amount of frames is being added up when the opposite is happening in reality. I'd suggest something like "frame optimized aerial" though it doesn't sound that elegant either and it sounds downright silly when abbrevated.
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NoviceSmasher
Smash Journeyman
kinda sucks that it doesn't work on shields,,,,,,,but it will be awesome for punishes,,,of rolls,etc,,,
Dr. Tuen
Smash Lord
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- 3DS FC
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"Hitlag and Landing Lag Stacking" is a really long name though. Conventionally, the method of execution isn't usually in the name ("L-Cancel" doesn't say how it's done). So maybe "Lag Stacking" would be better. It describes that you're stacking the landing lag onto something else.
Either way, I'd agree that "cancel" doesn't really work... since no frames are being removed.
Oh! Maybe "Frame Syncing"? You're syncing up frames to occur together and the name doesn't necessarily imply that the frames are additive.