Frame Cancel

[Ulevo]

Please don't make the name of this technique sound dumb.

 

[icraq]

Im starting to think it cant be done. if im understanding correctly, the first frame of the attack has to hit as u land and his fair starts from behind him. ive even tried coming from under the stage to try and make the first frame connect as you land but the attack doest come out. maybe im doing it wrong though

the current theory is that this doesn't actually require the first active hitbox to connect, it just requires the move to connect while the game thinks you're grounded. just some moves have to hit with the first active hitbox, some maybe later.
i'm guessing this is a 1 frame technique. it's not easy with pretty much every move.

 

[Makorel]

Please don't make the name of this technique sound dumb.

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.

Technique-in-which-one-utilizes-an-aerial-to-place-his-or-her-opponent-into-unactionable-frames-whilst-at-the-same-time-touching-the-ground-so-as-to-create-a-safe-landing-for-oneself-during-the-time-one's-opponent-cannot-act

Groundairs

That's all I got.

 

[Mayday]

I'm starting to land it with stomps a little more often. Maybe this won't be as impossible to master as I thought. Just will take some time

 

[cot(θ)]

TBH, I don't think this tech is good for Smash 4. We don't need very niche, extremely hard to execute techniques to separate the good players from the bad, and the fact that this is most effective on strong moves which intentionally have long landing lag for balance purposes leads me to believe that this is more likely to imbalance the game than to make it more balanced.

But hey, prove me wrong.

Anyway, I couldn't get this to work with Mega Man's fair. Seems to cancel if I land just as the hitbox comes out / should come out. Could be I just need to experiment with fast-falls, though.

 

[Thinkaman]

TBH, I don't think this tech is good for Smash 4. We don't need very niche, extremely hard to execute techniques to separate the good players from the bad, and the fact that this is most effective on strong moves which intentionally have long landing lag for balance purposes leads me to believe that this is more likely to imbalance the game than to make it more balanced.

I couldn't agree more, but I think it's a moot point; I maintain this is utterly insignificant for everyone except maybe Ganon.

(Well, and Bowser Jr. if it's connected to his dair landing behavior, but that was long already known and I'm not convinced this mechanic explains it fully.)

 

[Roukiske]

Dang I gotta hand it to you folks who are able to do this. All my years of tech skill with Melee have not prepared me to do 1 frame techniques like this. I think I tried for at least 15 minutes in training mode and I don't think I even got it once with Falcon dair/fair.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

its easier to do with falcos dair but not by much

 

[Jebus244]

Dang I gotta hand it to you folks who are able to do this. All my years of tech skill with Melee have not prepared me to do 1 frame techniques like this. I think I tried for at least 15 minutes in training mode and I don't think I even got it once with Falcon dair/fair.

Falcon's Dair isn't so bad. If you push down on the C-stick about halfway between the short-hop's start and it's peak, then fast fall into the hit, you can do it. His fair is tough because of the hit box position.

Edit: Also, I think you have about 4 frames to do it, which is still only .06 seconds...

 

[Lavani]

Im starting to think it cant be done. if im understanding correctly, the first frame of the attack has to hit as u land and his fair starts from behind him. ive even tried coming from under the stage to try and make the first frame connect as you land but the attack doest come out. maybe im doing it wrong though

It works with Mario's fair, though it feels really hard to time compared to other moves I've tried (only got it once in half an hour). Groundbounce fair>fair spike becomes a thing when it starts to groundbounce, lower percents probably let you get away with things like fair>grab etc

 

[Roukiske]

Falcon's Dair isn't so bad. If you push down on the C-stick about halfway between the short-hop's start and it's peak, then fast fall into the hit, you can do it. His fair is tough because of the hit box position.

Edit: Also, I think you have about 4 frames to do it, which is still only .06 seconds...

Thanks for the timing tips. I think that's what I needed since I haven't seen it done before. It's probably easier if you could get a rhythm to it (timing wise) as opposed to visuals. That's how I got some of the harder links to work in SF thanks to loud buttons. Good luck to all.

If it's not frame perfect then I have hopes for this

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I maintain this is utterly insignificant for everyone except maybe Ganon.

It's probably significant for ZSS as frame synching her nair seems to increase the frame window during which she gets a guaranteed up B follow-up. Since nair can be comboed into from dsmash and rage being a thing in this game, she can set up guaranteed kills at extremely fraudulent percent that are probably not doable without synching frames.

The benefits of being able to synch frames on Falco's dair are also obvious and numerous. It's pretty difficult to perform though so it remains to be seen how useful it is in practice but looking at the video in the OP makes me think that the reward is quite ridiculous and it's definitely worth practicing for dedicated Falco mains.

Frame synching Yoshi's bair 1 is easy to do and has a few good follow-up options. I don't know at which percent FS Bair 1 -> Dair is a legitimate combo but the damage output that Yoshi potentially gains access to through this discovery is significant, especially since Yoshi is destined to become a relevant factor in this game's meta as soon as people who are actually good pick him up [or the people who play him become actually good].

So not taking the obvious significance of this discovery for Ganondorf into account, it's still something that can make a difference for ZSS and Falco and is very helpful for Yoshi. And we haven't really looked into a lot of characters yet. Mii Brawler could gain guaranteed side B follow-ups through frame synching aerials. Sonic and Pikachu being able to pull off combos from frame synched fair is pretty easy to imagine too. It may not turn out to be that useful after all but it' definitely something to look into.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I find Falcos dAir pretty easy actually. Like I got it every 5th time on 1x speed. Tried with Ganondorf and ZSSamus and it was way harder.

 

[Shaya]

I have a feeling Sheik's fair is easy to do with this.

 

[Jebus244]

Thanks for the timing tips. I think that's what I needed since I haven't seen it done before. It's probably easier if you could get a rhythm to it (timing wise) as opposed to visuals. That's how I got some of the harder links to work in SF thanks to loud buttons. Good luck to all.

If it's not frame perfect then I have hopes for this

There's definitely a rhythm
behind it. I just TRUE COMBO'ED Dair->Fair with Falcon.

Mario at around 60%, Frame Sync your Dair->SH Cstick Fair. Doesn't kill from the center though.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I honestly do not know how gheb is getting Dair after Bair's first hit since it sends em too far away.

 

[MaximalGFX]

So have been able to pull this off with pretty much all of Ike aerial. The problem is that the hitstun from his move doesn't last long enough for him to follow up with anything... all his moves have pretty laggu start up that are longer than the hitstun.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So have been able to pull this off with pretty much all of Ike aerial. The problem is that the hitstun from his move doesn't last long enough for him to follow up with anything... all his moves have pretty laggu start up that are longer than the hitstun.

He can follow up with a lot after Fair normally. To the point that this tech doesn't give him any extra options. Bair already autocancels so its pointless. Nair has very low landing lag already, so its pointless. Dair with this can combo into Jab and that's about it. Uair I haven't heard of any combos, maybe Aether in theory?

 

[BlueBirdE]

any video confirmation of this working on shield?

 

[MaximalGFX]

He can follow up with a lot after Fair normally. To the point that this tech doesn't give him any extra options. Bair already autocancels so its pointless. Nair has very low landing lag already, so its pointless. Dair with this can combo into Jab and that's about it. Uair I haven't heard of any combos, maybe Aether in theory?

Yup. Working on DK right now. I am unable to make his Fair work... I think it impossible because he fall on his ass when he does it and this animation cannot seems to be cancel. Or maybe I just need to try harder, but my fingers are starting to hurt haha

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yup. Working on DK right now. I am unable to make his Fair work... I think it impossible because he fall on his *** when he does it and this animation cannot seems to be cancel. Or maybe I just need to try harder, but my fingers are starting to hurt haha

http://smashboards.com/threads/frie...ke-social-thread.356166/page-27#post-18369606

But like I said, ain't worth it. All the ones listed there already work and then some (like Grab)

 

[MaximalGFX]

Ok DK Fair and Dair link perfectly into Utilt and Utilt trap people at low % so thats good...

 

[HeroMystic]

It works with Mario's fair, though it feels really hard to time compared to other moves I've tried (only got it once in half an hour). Groundbounce fair>fair spike becomes a thing when it starts to groundbounce, lower percents probably let you get away with things like fair>grab etc

Fortunately Groundbounce F-air > F-air can be done without FS. F-air to Grab would be an awesome low percent combo though.

 

[Uncle Pie]

It's not a synch at all.

What's happening is the hit-lag is being cancelled by landing.

(Accurate) naming options are either:

Hit-Lag Cancel - name it by what is being cancelled;

or

Land-Cancel - name it by what causes the cancel (landing). No doubt this would be shortened to L-Cancel

 

[Dobbston]

Wonder if this works with Mario/Doc's F-air...

If it does, it'd open up so many set-ups for them.

I just comboed Dr. Mario's Fair into Up B on Fox at 5 percent for 29 dmg so it either works with Dr. Mario's Fair or doesn't need it in order to combo.

 

[Appledees]

Could this work with any of Megaman's aerials?

Been trying to do this with Mega and no good results are coming out of it. Can't tell if its really difficult with his aerials or his aerials can't do it at all.

 

[icraq]

Anyway, I couldn't get this to work with Mega Man's fair. Seems to cancel if I land just before the hitbox comes out. Could be I just need to experiment with fast-falls, though.

Could this work with any of Megaman's aerials?

Been trying to do this with Mega and no good results are coming out of it. Can't tell if its really difficult with his aerials or his aerials can't do it at all.

i mean, just consider fair's hitbox, it's an arc, and try to picture how the move would be able to connect just as you were hitting the ground. if it were even possible, the range and timing would differ on every character. it might be entirely impossible on some members of the cast, maybe you'd only be able to use it on lylat with the slopes, i have no idea.

i think the easiest moves to land with this are ones at a downward angle, like falco's dair since you can aim it right at their feet, or straight horizontal attacks like rosalina's bair.

 

[Signia]

Is it really the EXACT FRAME you get the hit?

Also: Aerial Attack Landing Lag Cancel By Fast Falling When You Get The Hit (AALLCBFFWYGTH)

So my question is, do we gotta do this during the BEGINNING of hitlag, or END of hitlag? >:

I've done it like 5 out of 25 times.

You don't have to fastfall. Just hit from low to the ground and hit with the first frame of the aerial. May want to clear that up in the OP.

 

[Lavani]

You don't need to hit with the first frame of the aerial, you just need to hit as you land.

If it had to be the first frame it wouldn't be possible to do it with the spike hitbox of Mario's fair.

 

[thehard]

TBH, I don't think this tech is good for Smash 4. We don't need very niche, extremely hard to execute techniques to separate the good players from the bad, and the fact that this is most effective on strong moves which intentionally have long landing lag for balance purposes leads me to believe that this is more likely to imbalance the game than to make it more balanced.

But hey, prove me wrong.

Um but it will lead to a higher skill ceiling and more competitiveness and new tech and faster games and Sakurai hates competitive players?!?!

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

This stuff is p diddy cool but I want to see someone do it in an actual tourney setting before saying it's actually useful.
We barely see any PPing and it's way easier than this.
The only possibility I see here is it being used by characters with safe setups that could use the result of a tech miss as well.
ZSS with nAir after dSmash for example.

 

[Tristan_win]

I see people are now saying this doesn't require you to hit on the first frame.

So does that mean it can work on all aerials?

edit: I just notice the original post update. Well I guess I'll hit the lab for the next 15-20 minutes with sheik.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

I see people are now saying this doesn't require you to hit on the first frame.

So does that mean it can work on all aerials?

edit: I just notice the original post update. Well I guess I'll hit the lab for the next 15-20 minutes with sheik.

Well, technically moves with very little landing lag don't have this effect because they don't have enough lag to cancel out.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I honestly do not know how gheb is getting Dair after Bair's first hit since it sends em too far away.

Try it at 0% against Bowser. The first few hits of Yoshi's feet will whiff but with his airspeed he can reach it just in time. Admittedly, it's very hard to do [I only managed to pull it off once] and if it's actually a legitimate combo then it probably requires both inputs to be frame perfect. Dash Attack and Ftilt are likely better options because they are actually easy and because whiffing that bair puts you at a huge risk.

 

[Darklink401]

Okay so I just gotta do the aerial really close to the ground, and its gotta hit the opponent, and that will cancel the landing lag?
x.x

 

[Thinkaman]

Okay so I just gotta do the aerial really close to the ground, and its gotta hit the opponent, and that will cancel the landing lag?
x.x

It will subtract the time spent in hitlag from the landing lag, which may or may not be significant depending on the move.

 

[Darklink401]

It will subtract the time spent in hitlag from the landing lag, which may or may not be significant depending on the move.

But regardless then, the result will always be the same landing low landing lag, its just, more noticeable on high-lag moves right?

 

[DavemanCozy]

TO Joe, myself and other Fox players in Ontario were discussing this.

We found out that Fox can Frame Cancel his D-air as well. It might be more useful on him since the hitbox comes out much faster than Falco's. This also means the timing is different though.

 

[cot(θ)]

It's not a synch at all.

What's happening is the hit-lag is being cancelled by landing.

(Accurate) naming options are either:

Hit-Lag Cancel - name it by what is being cancelled;

or

Land-Cancel - name it by what causes the cancel (landing). No doubt this would be shortened to L-Cancel

Don't confuse the issue by saying that one type of lag is strictly being canceled by another. That the landing lag cancels the hitlag and vice versa are both valid interpretations.

What's happening is that the hitlag timer and the landing lag timer are being run down simultaneously, causing the attacker to incur only the greater of the two lags, while the defender incurs the full hitlag and following hitstun, which gives the attacker a frame advantage.

 

[Zef]

lmao, only in 2015 would smashers argue over a name rather than figure out uses for the technique..