Frame Cancel

[thehard]

lmao, only in 2015 would smashers argue over a name rather than figure out uses for the technique..

It's frame cheating obviously

 

[Thinkaman]

lmao, only in 2015 would smashers argue over a name rather than figure out uses for the technique..

You must be new. Please see reception for your complimentary Tires Don Exits t-shirt, and enjoy your time here.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

lmao, only in 2015 would smashers argue over a name rather than figure out uses for the technique..

Hey man, we're still trying to figure out an alternative name to the Edge Pivot Dash.

I vote for Pivot slide.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Wow smashboards good job not alerting me to updates

I'd like to chime in and say that you don't need to fast fall to get this to work. Some moves might require it from a short/full hop, but for some characters just timing it as late as possible is good enough. For example, it is a lot easier to do this exploit without fast falling for Ganon's Dair from a short hop.

Same. It seems to be easier without fastfalling for Ganondorf, but I've only been able to pull off knee and ZSS's NAir with fastfalling.

So my question is, do we gotta do this during the BEGINNING of hitlag, or END of hitlag? >:

I've done it like 5 out of 25 times.

Hitlag only occurs when you actually connect with a move, so it would always be at the beginning.

It's not a synch at all.

What's happening is the hit-lag is being cancelled by landing.

(Accurate) naming options are either:

Hit-Lag Cancel - name it by what is being cancelled;

or

Land-Cancel - name it by what causes the cancel (landing). No doubt this would be shortened to L-Cancel

Hitlag isn't being cancelled. The reason this works is BECAUSE you experience hitlag.

My vote goes to Lag Overlap because it's short, sweet, and gets to the point imo. You are literally overlapping your hitlag and landing lag. Though somebody mentioned that Frame Synching means you can say neat stuff like "yeah man I synched that aerial on him good" and saying you overlapped a stomp doesn't sound cool at all

 

[Darklink401]

Wow smashboards good job not alerting me to updates



Same. It seems to be easier without fastfalling for Ganondorf, but I've only been able to pull off knee and ZSS's NAir with fastfalling.


Hitlag only occurs when you actually connect with a move, so it would always be at the beginning.

Hitlag isn't being cancelled. The reason this works is BECAUSE you experience hitlag.

My vote goes to Lag Overlap because it's short, sweet, and gets to the point imo. You are literally overlapping your hitlag and landing lag. Though somebody mentioned that Frame Synching means you can say neat stuff like "yeah man I synched that aerial on him good" and saying you overlapped a stomp doesn't sound cool at all

I think frame synch is a more easily popularized term.

Much more, in fact.

And alright. tho I've been informed I don't need to fast fall, I just need to hit it when I'm reeeeally close to the ground, and that will synch up the two lags and make me able to move faster right?

 

[Lavani]

Do we actually know that the hitlag is being synced and not cancelled? Is there an aerial with more hitlag than landing lag?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Easy way to check whether or not hit lag is being cancelled is count the frames of hitlag on a non-FC/FS/whatever aerial, then compare it to the frames of hitlag of an aerial done with this. Though I don't see why there would be less frames of hitlag.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

lmao, only in 2015 would smashers argue over a name rather than figure out uses for the technique..

But we can do both, silly

 

[Lavani]

Oh, ZSS' nair. I suppose that should've been obvious.

Guess I'll try and look into this.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Do we actually know that the hitlag is being synced and not cancelled? Is there an aerial with more hitlag than landing lag?

Every aerial that auto-cancels!

 

[Lavani]

Yeah, hitlag does in fact seem to overlap rather than being cancelled.

Just wanted to make sure before a name was decided on :V

Every aerial that auto-cancels!

I don't think anything has an autocancel during active frames though. Even Sheik's fair's autocancel is 3 frames after the active frames.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Yeah, hitlag does in fact seem to overlap rather than being cancelled.

Just wanted to make sure before a name was decided on :V


I don't think anything has an autocancel during active frames though. Even Sheik's fair's autocancel is 3 frames after the active frames.

psh, doubting me

 

[Darklink401]

Yeah, hitlag does in fact seem to overlap rather than being cancelled.

Just wanted to make sure before a name was decided on :V


I don't think anything has an autocancel during active frames though. Even Sheik's fair's autocancel is 3 frames after the active frames.

Villager's turnips?

 

[Lavani]

Villager's turnips?

Uair is active 6-32f and autocancels <6f 38f>, dair changes startup to 8f and early autocancel to <8f but is otherwise the same.

So no, those don't autocancel during the active duration either.

 

[BlueBirdE]

If this doesn't work on shield i don't see this as something being practical except on very few characters in very specific situations if even that.

 

[Kwam$tack$]

damn i can finally get it pretty often now. havent been able to do much useful after mario's fair other than jab combo or up+b. smashes dont seem to register as a combo but they come out pretty fast and connect as if it were a combo.

edit: i guess its character based. im practicing on bowser and it only works past 30% whereas it worked for m
e at 0% against mario

double edit: got it to work with dsmash

 

[Linkshot]

I just want to give credibility to the Ontario folks because I got this working with Fox dAir, too, and it resulted in a uSmash followup at mid-high percents.

EDIT: For the name, I'm taking a liking to Frame Synchronization, with "Synced Aerial" being used during commentary.

 

[Darklink401]

I just want to give credibility to the Ontario folks because I got this working with Fox dAir, too, and it resulted in a uSmash followup at mid-high percents.

EDIT: For the name, I'm taking a liking to Frame Synchronization, with "Synced Aerial" being used during commentary.

I got it to work with an utilt just now =P

It's pretty easy with Fox actually XD

 

[B.A.M.]

I just want to give credibility to the Ontario folks because I got this working with Fox dAir, too, and it resulted in a uSmash followup at mid-high percents.

EDIT: For the name, I'm taking a liking to Frame Synchronization, with "Synced Aerial" being used during commentary.

you are aware Fox can do this without the frame cancel right? just ff dair so the last hit doesnt connect and he gets a host of follow ups.


Name wise I still think Cancelling can be used due to the fact that some of the total frames of the aerial are in fact being negated/ canceled due to the overlapping taking place. However I understand why that could cause for confusion.


In all honestly though the best name in terms of uniformity with fighting game terminology would be just frame. JC is an easy abbreviation and anyone who has touched a fighting game competitively would know EXACTLY the result and benefit of utilizing such a technique which makes it far more favorable than all the other names being proposed.

But I do like the term Frame Cancel. Since Izaw has already coined it ( and yes i know many other including myself independently found out about this tech before the video was released) I say just stick with it. FC aerials sounds find by me.




EDIT: Also by the way Zelda's isnt to tough to get down and it gives her FC dair> up B kills absurdly early. she also gets access to dair> fair/bair way earlier if she uses FC dair for advantage.

 

[Darklink401]

you are aware Fox can do this without the frame cancel right? just ff dair so the last hit doesnt connect and he gets a host of follow ups.


Name wise I still think Cancelling can be used due to the fact that some of the total frames of the aerial are in fact being negated/ canceled due to the overlapping taking place. However I understand why that could cause for confusion.


In all honestly though the best name in terms of uniformity with fighting game terminology would be just frame. JC is an easy abbreviation and anyone who has touched a fighting game competitively would know EXACTLY the result and benefit of utilizing such a technique which makes it far more favorable than all the other names being proposed.


sooooo yeah. As a commentator Im definitely calling it Just Frame. Theres no need to create lingo for something that already exist.

So Just Frame is an actual fighting game term? O.o

 

[B.A.M.]

yes it is. Its definition has become broader over the years but Just Frame usually refers doing an input or doing something on a certain frame which usually causes the said move to have different properties. more often than not it tends to give frame advantage and allows for more combos. Which is pretty much what this does. But yeah; Im all for new names if necessary but at this point I believe it should either be Frame Cancel since it has already been stated in Izaws much publicized video ( and is the name of this thread) or Just Frames due to its usage in other titles.

 

[Darklink401]

Just Frame seems like the correct Fighting Game terminology in this situation, if that's the case.

But I'm fine with whatever

Not like I'm gonna be able to pull this off consistently

XP

 

[lijero13ss]

Guys just call it Frame Lag Cancel aka FLC and be done lol

 

[Uncle Pie]

Hitlag isn't being cancelled. The reason this works is BECAUSE you experience hitlag.

That's somewhat misleading.

The reason your statement is correct because without hitlag there would be nothing to 'cancel' or synch. That's a self-fulfilling argument.

In this technique maybe you do still experience hitlag at the same time as landing lag - the jury is still out on that one - but because landing lag is always longer than hitlag, for all intents and purposes the hitlag is cancelled.

 

[Lavani]

That's somewhat misleading.

The reason your statement is correct because without hitlag there would be nothing to 'cancel' or synch. That's a self-fulfilling argument.

In this technique maybe you do still experience hitlag at the same time as landing lag - the jury is still out on that one - but because landing lag is always longer than hitlag, for all intents and purposes the hitlag is cancelled.

I answered this several posts ago (on this page, even), if landing lag is shorter than the attack's hitlag you're still stuck waiting for hitlag to end.

So no, hitlag isn't cancelled, it's just overlapping the landing lag.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

That's somewhat misleading.

The reason your statement is correct because without hitlag there would be nothing to 'cancel' or synch. That's a self-fulfilling argument.

In this technique maybe you do still experience hitlag at the same time as landing lag - the jury is still out on that one - but because landing lag is always longer than hitlag, for all intents and purposes the hitlag is cancelled.

"Cancelling hitlag" implies that you experience less frames of hitlag than you normally would. My statement is indeed correct, and none of the logic makes it a self-fulfilling argument.

 

[TL?]

Consider naming the technique after what it effectively does on the surface, and not after the exact technical implementation(Can we even be 100% sure on what the real technical explanation is right now?). Sure "overlap" might be technically right, but it's explaining more about the tech than is necessary. All you need to know to make use of this is that most of your landing lag will appear to be canceled if you connect with your aerials in a certain way(as late as possible before landing if I'm understanding correctly?). It may technically be an overlap or replacement but effectively it is what we would refer to as a cancel in most fighting games. We already use L cancel, Z cancel, and autocancel, when all of those could be described as replacing or overlapping your landing animation instead. It's best to stick to widespread and accepted terms if they work even if they don't perfectly describe the underlying workings of the tech.

As far as the actual tech goes, is there any proof of this working on shields currently?

 

[Remzi]

Haven't read through the whole thread, but I noticed ZSS's nair doing this a while back. It looks and feels VERY different when you "frame/hitlag cancel" this move. The combo possibilities are insane, but its ridiculously hard to do consistently.

 

[Dr. Z]

Thanks! Never knew about this. I'll have to try it out and look out for it.

 

[Zage]

I'm going with Just Frame. This thing with names and the Smash community is redonkulous.

How does this work with multi hitting aerials like Pac-Man's dair? I assume it only applies to the last hit and not the previous ones?

 

[Teran]

So have the odds been set on Sakurai patching it out?

 

[Darklink401]

So have the odds been set on Sakurai patching it out?

Isn't this one of those things that are difficult to patch out?

 

[Teran]

Isn't this one of those things that are difficult to patch out?

Not really, not for a Nintendo dev team it isnt.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

This is a very, very hard tech to get consistently. Right now, I haven't seen any videos come up of this being applied in an actual match, and the combos that are possible with this vary between characters. If there isn't widespread use of this difficult tech, I doubt it'll get patched.

 

[Darklink401]

This is a very, very hard tech to get consistently. Right now, I haven't seen any videos come up of this being applied in an actual match, and the combos that are possible with this vary between characters. If there isn't widespread use of this difficult tech, I doubt it'll get patched.

I've started getting better at it, and I'm not even good at tech stuff XP

I'm sure top players could get used to it.

If it can be used on shields, at least that's a free grab.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I don't know how advantageous this tech would be on shield since there's less shield stun in this game. It doesn't reduce landing lag, so it still might not help characters with high hitlag/landing lag. Gosh dangit where's the confirmation that this works on shield?

 

[Uncle Pie]

"Cancelling hitlag" implies that you experience less frames of hitlag than you normally would. My statement is indeed correct, and none of the logic makes it a self-fulfilling argument.

Without hitlag, there would be nothing to synch or overlap, if that is what's actually happening. In other words, you can overlap them because hitlag exists, which was your argument in the first place.

Not that it matters, and I'm definitely having one of those 'why am I arguing on the internet' moments

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I like Frame Sync. That might be because I proposed it. Suuuper biased. Ha ha. But, you know, I'm sure the community will just drift toward a name over time. Double so if this actually gets used a reasonable amount. If commentators have to describe this tech to explain an in-match interaction, then the name they use will probably get popular. So. /shrug.

I'm finding that for ZSS, this widely just extends the percent that certain combos will land on. It encourages low hitting nair so that the chance of you getting extra time to do... whatever you wanted to follow up with is increased. I can't do it very consistently though, so until I really figure something out on it, it's just a relatively safe and probabilistic way of incrementally improving her game.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Let's pull an Izaw and call it Zaw cancelling

 

[Big-Cat]

Just Frame or whatever (can we please not reinvent the wheel every damn time?), I'm just wondering when is it that you can pull this off in a match.