trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
i must be missing something, why is shinegrabbing better with falco? i would assume that fox getting a grab is infinitely better than falco
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
leffen
Smash Champion
how the hell is it worse than Falcos? You do realize it has only 1 more frame gap and instead rewards you with a 10x better grab >.<
Winston
Smash Master
Putting the use of the word "strictly" aside, it is worse than falco's in the sense that falco gets to follow up the shine if they actually get hit by it.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Whiffed shine grab?
no problem. minimum 60% combo.
Falco is op.
no problem. minimum 60% combo.
Falco is op.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Will explain when I get on a computer, too lazy to type on phone.
leffen
Smash Champion
do you realize how horrible they have to be for you to actually be able to follow up if you do the JC grab lol >_<?
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Enacted shield pressure for the first time on someone the other day. Felt good, but I accomplished nothing...
It's really hard to be aware while playing Fox...
It's really hard to be aware while playing Fox...
MarsFool!
Smash Lord
Idk about this, Ive seen really good players shine grab only hit the shine and continue the combo anyway.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
I'm not sure what you're saying?
to clarify, we're talking about when u attempt a shine grab (on shield), but they get hit by the shine
The shine stuns the opponent long enough you can shinegrab, whiff the grab, and still follow up.
I don't see what it has to do with the opponent's skill level? its more a metric of game mechanics...
Winston
Smash Master
I think he means good players will DI the shine away
JPOBS
Smash Hero
i guess. But even di'ing the shine is only a mitigating factor, not really a solution.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
yeah and i'm pretty sure he's right..shinegrab missing should be enough time for a good player to DI away
not 100% sure though
i know i've hit people after whiffing the grab portion, but i generally wasn't able to set up a string from the missed grab, it's like when you try and dair them but they aren't gonna fall at the right speed to continue the combo.
not 100% sure though
i know i've hit people after whiffing the grab portion, but i generally wasn't able to set up a string from the missed grab, it's like when you try and dair them but they aren't gonna fall at the right speed to continue the combo.
Meljin
Smash Apprentice
Not sure about that but I think characters that fall to a shine (i.e fastfallers spacies, PAL Marth...) can't really be shined then grabbed, while DI doesn't matters.
battousai555
Smash Ace
I know I've gotten a shine-grab out of a run on Falcon, but he was probably DIing up and in super hard.
Speaking of Falcon, can a smart platform game work against him? I know the general consensus is that it's difficult due to his quickness and up-air, but as of late I feel like I do better in that match up when I (actively) camp platforms quite a bit. Not sure if I'm doin' it right or the Falcon I'm playing just isn't playing very intelligently : /
Meljin
Smash Apprentice
In theory, neither of Fox moves can counter Falcon from an upper point, ADA will always be countered if Falcon's AUA is well spaced.
And yeah, Falcon can be Shine-grabbed, because he doesn't fall after a shine, gonna correct this.
And yeah, Falcon can be Shine-grabbed, because he doesn't fall after a shine, gonna correct this.
Lovage
Smash Hero
camping platforms isn't as amazing vs. falcon as it is vs slower chars.
having said that, you can often use platforms to outmaneuver him in the air and bair him when he tries to uair
vs. good falcons it's hard to outmaneuver them like this because of his huge uair so you gotta make decent reads (like everything else in the game)
having said that, you can often use platforms to outmaneuver him in the air and bair him when he tries to uair
vs. good falcons it's hard to outmaneuver them like this because of his huge uair so you gotta make decent reads (like everything else in the game)
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Yeah, cuz good players DI every shine away every time... *especially* when they're already trying to shield grab... yeah, sure.
Also, falco's shine shieldstun more than makes up for the 2 frame difference in their jump, or so I've always been told.
So yeah; falco's shinegrab is harder to beat out as far as I know, and if he whiffs the grab he usually gets follow ups. Fox gets nothing and it sucks and you wish you had just done something else. Falco's shield pressure in general is so good because through his standard stuff he can easily confirm any stray hits; fox can't do that and it sucks and it makes pressuring generally less desirable considering the risk vs reward.
Also, falco's shine shieldstun more than makes up for the 2 frame difference in their jump, or so I've always been told.
So yeah; falco's shinegrab is harder to beat out as far as I know, and if he whiffs the grab he usually gets follow ups. Fox gets nothing and it sucks and you wish you had just done something else. Falco's shield pressure in general is so good because through his standard stuff he can easily confirm any stray hits; fox can't do that and it sucks and it makes pressuring generally less desirable considering the risk vs reward.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
shine land grab discussion already happened. its only good if your intention was to grab. the shine wont have a hitbox if its done perfectly. its the fastest way frame wise to ground yourself on a platform from below with the intention of jumping...including a jc grab. the only thing that keeps them shielding is fear that u will attack.
but combined with forward or backward flips u can position your body so that u can shine land with minimal lag and even still have a hitbox. the extra falling time from a jc shine shouldn't be a problem because of how hard it is to react to a shine grab. even if its a jc shine grab.
it is faster than jumping through a platform and and wave landing down into a grab other than that there isn't much use other than looking cooler than everybody else. more practical but still relevant is approaching shields with a jc shine out of initial dash into a jc grab. can be used way more often.
eggz shield drops like a pimp. it was crazy fast how well he learned to use them too offensively and not purely for moving around.
edit:nvm, not the same discussion. but it seems rather hard to shine grab, connect with the shine, whiff the grab and then follow up. I find that much more believable with falco. when u say follow up do u mean true combo extensions or loose tech chases where had the right decision been made (focusing less on di) they would have escaped.
but combined with forward or backward flips u can position your body so that u can shine land with minimal lag and even still have a hitbox. the extra falling time from a jc shine shouldn't be a problem because of how hard it is to react to a shine grab. even if its a jc shine grab.
it is faster than jumping through a platform and and wave landing down into a grab other than that there isn't much use other than looking cooler than everybody else. more practical but still relevant is approaching shields with a jc shine out of initial dash into a jc grab. can be used way more often.
eggz shield drops like a pimp. it was crazy fast how well he learned to use them too offensively and not purely for moving around.
edit:nvm, not the same discussion. but it seems rather hard to shine grab, connect with the shine, whiff the grab and then follow up. I find that much more believable with falco. when u say follow up do u mean true combo extensions or loose tech chases where had the right decision been made (focusing less on di) they would have escaped.
Meljin
Smash Apprentice
Wait, you're saying that Falco's grabs are better than Fox's in terms of follow-ups
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
"and if he whiffs the grab he usually gets follow ups"
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I agree with DFox. Landing the grab itself is slightly more profitable for Fox, but Fox lacks the ability to set up said pressure in the first place, and if the shine hits he loses most of his chance to follow up the shine.
Sinji
Smash Master
tru that.
But if your facing a space animal, you can tech chase after the shine hits and possibly grab.
Winston
Smash Master
Well if you hit the DI away it is a solution. You go pretty far away and Falco isn't gonna be able to follow up directly out of the grab lag.
well, they don't really have "time" to DI away. They have to DI the SHINE away in order to not get comboed. There's no time to react.
If they go slightly in front of you you can do a running sh nair or something; if they didn't DI it you should have time to do the dair properly to combo.
As for how often players actually DI away while getting hit by shines during shield pressure, I have no clue. I certainly don't, but I suck. In any case I should probably stop trying to put words in leffen's mouth and wait for him to respond
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
well you're also directly relating to heavies in that point, i for some reason didn't even think about heavies, i was referring to like, a peach getting shined during a shine-grab attempt. generally, if you didn't try and grab[after the shine connects], you could go really high above peach, or at the right angle, to properly dair her and continue the combo.
with the grab being there after, it leaves you less time to dair at the right time above peach, and can sometimes just result in no combo whatsoever
with the grab being there after, it leaves you less time to dair at the right time above peach, and can sometimes just result in no combo whatsoever
Winston
Smash Master
Oh yeah, true. Idk why I just assumed fastfallers. Against someone like peach though a shine into bair into lasers into pressuring her as she tries to get down is a pretty reasonable reward though. Compare to fox who gets nothing from shine -> whiffed grab.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
yeah that's a good point.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Okay so some of you don't seem to understand how shine-grabs work, I will give you an explanation.
Fox and Falco's jump speeds DO NOT MATTER AT ALL WHATSOEVER with shine grab. This is because of how JC grabs work as a whole.
When you JC grab, you can spend X frames to do it. X is your character's jump startup. If you're Falco, you can burn 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. He's airborne on frame 6, but any frame amount before that can work. As Fox, you can burn 3, 2, 1 because he's airborne on 4. However, since there is NO ADVANTAGE WHATSOEVER to spending more time to do something, we all try to JC grab quickly and only use the minimum 1 frame to do it.
Falco's is better frame-wise (for this reason) because his higher damage means he gets more frame advantage for doing it.
Falco's shine on the whole is noticeably better than Fox's for pressure (except maybe near the edge). Upon hitting a shine, you can whiff an aerial or grab and unless the opponent DIed, you get to hit them. At worst you get positional advantage.
This is compounded by the fact that many common OOS options naturally prevent you from DIing hard away (nair OOS, etc). Also, Falco can combo if he shines someone in the air whereas Fox just has them land on their feet (unless they fall down from shine, but that has its own set of issues if the opponent has good DI and teching). I'm fairly convinced vs a lot of characters, if they land on their feet, Fox is at frame disadvantage but I could be wrong.
I generally tend to feel Falco has more shine mixups that you actually have to be worried about.
Fox and Falco's jump speeds DO NOT MATTER AT ALL WHATSOEVER with shine grab. This is because of how JC grabs work as a whole.
When you JC grab, you can spend X frames to do it. X is your character's jump startup. If you're Falco, you can burn 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. He's airborne on frame 6, but any frame amount before that can work. As Fox, you can burn 3, 2, 1 because he's airborne on 4. However, since there is NO ADVANTAGE WHATSOEVER to spending more time to do something, we all try to JC grab quickly and only use the minimum 1 frame to do it.
Falco's is better frame-wise (for this reason) because his higher damage means he gets more frame advantage for doing it.
Falco's shine on the whole is noticeably better than Fox's for pressure (except maybe near the edge). Upon hitting a shine, you can whiff an aerial or grab and unless the opponent DIed, you get to hit them. At worst you get positional advantage.
This is compounded by the fact that many common OOS options naturally prevent you from DIing hard away (nair OOS, etc). Also, Falco can combo if he shines someone in the air whereas Fox just has them land on their feet (unless they fall down from shine, but that has its own set of issues if the opponent has good DI and teching). I'm fairly convinced vs a lot of characters, if they land on their feet, Fox is at frame disadvantage but I could be wrong.
I generally tend to feel Falco has more shine mixups that you actually have to be worried about.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
^ This post should be stickied as a guide.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
u **** kaze
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
That's why he's in the backroom. 
Wake
Smash Master
KK knows everything.
Palpi
Smash Hero
Wow Kirby kaze your penis feels soooooo good
Walt
Smash Ace
Silent Wolf
...
heres another grand finals set of me vs sion from last saturday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIGbWfNUI1w&t=3m11s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIGbWfNUI1w&t=3m11s
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I should gather my informative amazing posts and put them in one thread. And watch it get ignored. Because nobody reads the stickies or the OP.
I'd read em all a lot dude. =)
Wake
Smash Master
I'd read it too!
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Ok so we're up to two people.
Meljin
Smash Apprentice
Three ! Amazing !
Seriously, I don't know much about America, but your "how to DI fox UAir" guide is well known in France.
Seriously, I don't know much about America, but your "how to DI fox UAir" guide is well known in France.
Wake
Smash Master
Everyone would read all of your stuff KK!