Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[L__]

Why is it that when I see a Fox or Falco get knocked off the stage, they'll shine, then DJ then firefox/illusion?

Any point to the shine?

Also, I was watching Hai? vs. PewPewU (Luigi vs. Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_gDkO4mIyw&feature=channel

At around 0:25, he shines Luigi, then goes quickly into Phantasm (didn't look like an accident).
Luigi ends up popping up but he doesn't combo him anymore because he was off the edge.
So... Shine-> Phantasm = good?

That's me!

That combo is actually effective if you can do it correctly btw.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Raynex posting:

Shine JC illusion -> move on Luigi is pretty good if you have the room for it.

Dash attack should be used to overshoot DD campers or Marths/Falcons who space with DDs.

When they dash back and think you are going to grab or something, you just keep running straight and overshoot the dash attack to where you think they are going to be running to. That usually gets you a free dash attack because they are running away not expecting you to do anything. Overshooting and unshooting are really good for getting free combos. Its basically another method of predicting, like techchasing. Just alot harder.

 

[soap]

Raynex posting:

Shine JC illusion -> move on Luigi is pretty good if you have the room for it.

Dash attack should be used to overshoot DD campers or Marths/Falcons who space with DDs.

When they dash back and think you are going to grab or something, you just keep running straight and overshoot the dash attack to where you think they are going to be running to. That usually gets you a free dash attack because they are running away not expecting you to do anything. Overshooting and unshooting are really good for getting free combos. Its basically another method of predicting, like techchasing. Just alot harder.

yup, i use that dash attack thing with like every character, with sheik i use boost grab sometimes

 

[Tee ay eye]

can I join?

 

[halcyon.days]

Is there a void on the bottom of the stage?

When you Firefox, you have a bit of room to DI, but when you're near the bottom of the stage, even if you're DI-ing straight up you'll still die?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Be careful about the dash attack at lower percents tho, if their percentage is so low that they won't fall over from it they'll usually be able to hit you before you can doing anything (dash attack lags alot), even if they didnt cc it or whatever.
I wouldn't use it before 50-60%.

 

[ArcNatural]

Be careful about the dash attack at lower percents tho, if their percentage is so low that they won't fall over from it they'll usually be able to hit you before you can doing anything (dash attack lags alot), even if they didnt cc it or whatever.
I wouldn't use it before 50-60%.

Unless they are in the air and your trying to catch them underneath their attack. That would probably be the only scenario you should do a dash attack below the knockdown %.

For wavedashing in general, do you guys sh -> wavedash or fj wavedash? I've always been curious to if I should learn to wavedash with a short hop jump opposed to just pressing it like I normally do (seems it might be easier to become more consistent with sh out of shine, since if you flub an attempted waveshine, at least you will have sh, instead of fulljumped.)

 

[halcyon.days]

Unless they are in the air and your trying to catch them underneath their attack. That would probably be the only scenario you should do a dash attack below the knockdown %.

For wavedashing in general, do you guys sh -> wavedash or fj wavedash? I've always been curious to if I should learn to wavedash with a short hop jump opposed to just pressing it like I normally do (seems it might be easier to become more consistent with sh out of shine, since if you flub an attempted waveshine, at least you will have sh, instead of fulljumped.)

I just hold down jump, but I can control it if I want to sh out of shine.

 

[RaynEX]

SH->wavedash? fulljump wavedash? what do you mean?

 

[Schwartz_Bruder]

...Alright, guys. Please help me out!

What was I doing wrong in this match and what should I work on? (This is KosukeKGA.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt6dCMlOmsM

 

[Da Shuffla]

SH->wavedash? fulljump wavedash? what do you mean?

I think he meant waveland?

 

[Schwartz_Bruder]

Probably. He means what he means.

I guess he means how he presses the jump button. I just hold X and R and hit them basically around the same time.

 

[Kyu Puff]

He meant pressing the button lightly, as opposed to pressing it down all the way. It won't affect your actual wavedash at all, but the faster/lighter you press the button the better, because it allows your thumb to move sooner to other buttons.

 

[NES n00b]

...Alright, guys. Please help me out!

What was I doing wrong in this match and what should I work on? (This is KosukeKGA.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt6dCMlOmsM

Well for one you always ran into his attacks. lol

2. At the first half of the match, it seemed you only ran forward and neutral air which is pretty predictable.

3. Last half was you either getting hit alot or misspacing your attacks so that a small dash backwards can easily avoid and you can easily see coming. If you are going to attack and know they can dash back, try to get a little closer before attacking them and maybe you should let him come to you once in a while huh?

4. Recoveries are text book fox but I can't blame you too much because they work but foward still know what you were going to do.

5. You usually like teching away twoards the edge like me, that might have gotten you in a little bit of trouble but it wasn't like there was that many techs in the game anyway.

6. Sheild must not be your friend cause you didn't use it. I know it is a fox ditto and you don't want to be in your sheild but when foward was just attacking you in the last half in the game you could have sheilded some of the times you couldn't dash away. That said, dash dance to grab more when that happens.

Everything else I think is just inevitable or rare mistakes.

 

[KosukeKGA]

Thanks. This will help me out greatly...

 

[ArcNatural]

He meant pressing the button lightly, as opposed to pressing it down all the way. It won't affect your actual wavedash at all, but the faster/lighter you press the button the better, because it allows your thumb to move sooner to other buttons.

Yes sorry, this is what I meant. I was just curious what the general population of players actually did. I've also gotten into the habit of always JC'ing my shines when I'm on the ground. For me I find it more reliable than cc to shine, and obviously you can JC shine at any point of the dash. To me, the first JC shine was always easy to do anyway. Thoughts?

 

[RaynEX]

Thanks. This will help me out greatly...

In that match, you and Forward had terrible edge-guarding. All either of you needed was to bair and you'd get stocks. lack of thunders, combos when you actually got a grab.

more dair, more shine. = D

 

[NES n00b]

In that match, you and Forward had terribly edge-guarding.

And you have "terribly" grammer so it works out. =D <3

 

[RaynEX]

oops.

I'm tired...2 days of non stop smash.

 

[KirbyKaze]

wheeeeeeeeeeeee

hai bernie

 

[NES n00b]

wheeeeeeeeeeeee

hai bernie

OK....that is by far one of the spamiest posts ever. I mean, how could anyone not see this as a spam post. The only posts I have seen more obvious is BrawlLover's (LOL Master's). >_>

 

[KirbyKaze]

Bernie will know what i'm asking when he sees that post.

Namely, "Bernie, how do I get better with Fox and fux with amazingness like you?"

 

[RaynEX]

KK is picking up Fox and getting really good with Marth. Its perfect timing because we have a Melee/Brawl tourny coming up this weekend in Niagra Falls.

M2k and Vidjo are coming.

I'm guna kick M2k's ***. MUAHAHAHAHHAA

edit: I think this is the first time an American pro is actually crossing the border for a Canadian-run tournament.

Ya we can't let him get 1st. deal? kthx bai.



On Topic: Samus is gay. I played a Samus yesterday that wasn't even that good and I still had problems. wtf is Fox supposed to do besides camp and usmash.

 

[NES n00b]

On Topic: Samus is gay. I played a Samus yesterday that wasn't even that good and I still had problems. wtf is Fox supposed to do besides camp and usmash.

Camp with LASERS and usmash.......or maybe some drill shines and bairs in between. I play ihavespaceballs all the time so I know the pain.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I just shoot and run away.

When they come up after me when I'm camping a platform I space Bair or shield platform drop or just waveland away depending on the stage.

I ban FD because there is a distinct lack of platforms (and therefore platform abuse).

Failing that I go Sheik and just do Bair a lot.

Samus is a dumb matchup, just gay her to death with lasers and be prepared to kill her at 170% from Bair or something stupid. You really can't engage her on the ground I find, if they're any good, simply because of how much she outranges you and her brutal lack of hitstun, and - unless they're into obnoxious (yet ineffectual) D-smash spam - they don't have sufficient lag to get decent punishes if they have any vague sense of spacing. Thus, laser spam.

edit: Don't believe RaynEX I don't have a Fox and my Marth is horrible.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Dair->utilt is a good way of starting a combo if you get the oppurtunity to do something (you where the who mentioned this combo a few pages back btw lol). If you mistime it and they shield you sometimes get up-b'd tho which is gay. But it's better as a punishment method then usmash...
Make sure their percentage is high enough for them to fall over from it btw, so they dont ASDI down/CC and punish you

as for how to actually play the matchup, laser camp and force him to approach. Samus isn't as good if he's the one who has to approach.

I'd rather switch to falcon vs samus tho.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

laser camp and force him

I gotta try dair->utilt though, I have way too much trouble with samus so anything helps, really.

 

[Falcinho]

Lol, yesterday i won a Bo7 with Falco against Samus.

The only match i lost was on FD Oo

However, if you play a decent Sheik/Marth that's imo better than going Fox/Falco, cause you don't have to think that much.

If you want to play Fox . . . i have no clue how to play the matchup
I didn't even play it in friendlies.

 

[RaynEX]

There were 3 main problems I had vs. the Samus:

1 - I couldn't edge-guard 100%, because I had no plan of attack or strategy when Samus was coming back.

2 - If I tried things like Bair (not spaced), nair, drill->utilt, nair->utilt, I'd get CCed every time. The worst part is even if I got utilts he would CC those. Man Samus is dumb.

3 - I would spam drill expecting CCs and hoping for waveshines, like Fox is supposed to. But then I'd hit with like 2-3 hits of the dair and my shine would completely miss and I'd get dsmashed. I don't think the guy I was playing knew how to SDI, let alone SDI dair...so why the hell couldn't I drillshine him? I have the same problem as Falco vs. Marth sometimes too. I get dair but shine doesn't connect for whatever reason.

But yea, I know how I'm supposed to do the match-up. I understand match-up theory and how Fox has literally nothing against Samus besides laser/usmash. Still, its difficult to beat a Samus convincingly sometimes.

 

[NES n00b]

There were 3 main problems I had vs. the Samus:

1 - I couldn't edge-guard 100%, because I had no plan of attack or strategy when Samus was coming back.

2 - If I tried things like Bair (not spaced), nair, drill->utilt, nair->utilt, I'd get CCed every time. The worst part is even if I got utilts he would CC those. Man Samus is dumb.

3 - I would spam drill expecting CCs and hoping for waveshines, like Fox is supposed to. But then I'd hit with like 2-3 hits of the dair and my shine would completely miss and I'd get dsmashed. I don't think the guy I was playing knew how to SDI, let alone SDI dair...so why the hell couldn't I drillshine him? I have the same problem as Falco vs. Marth sometimes too. I get dair but shine doesn't connect for whatever reason.

But yea, I know how I'm supposed to do the match-up. I understand match-up theory and how Fox has literally nothing against Samus besides laser/usmash. Still, its difficult to beat a Samus convincingly sometimes.

1. LOL, get used to not being able to edgeguard samus. The best you can do is bair when he is coming from above (or upair if you are feeling really good at spacing and risk >_>), shine him if he is going to airdodge to grapple, or just hope you can get to the edge and use the invincibilty frames to edgehog the up b but this is stupid hard as the samus has lots of leeway to up b to get back to the edge or stage.

2. All you can do is basically laser and drill then shine. If you are going to approach which you usually shouldn't you should either attack them where they are or where they are going to be when they wavedash back (what else would they do? lol) you know depending.

3. You are just going to have to space so that you are attacking their head (makes it less easy to SDI away and easier for you to follow their SDI) while also following them as best as possible with the drill cause if you miss with drill and the shine hits, they are going to crouch cancel it and thus you get nothing. This is why it is important to hit with all of the drill so they aren't able to crouch cancel (or at least the last hit you know) and then you can get a shine upsmash.

Main gameplan shoot lasers, bair if samus pursues while you try to get away. Drill to shine to upsmash sometimes. Do the best you can to edgeguard cause it is definitely hard.

 

[NJzFinest]

Against Samus, Nair past her shield and uptilt.

Throw out reverse uptilts every now and then, it beats everything.

Also, drillshine out of shield whenever possible.

 

[RaynEX]

Against Samus, Nair past her shield and uptilt.

Throw out reverse uptilts every now and then, it beats everything.

Also, drillshine out of shield whenever possible.

upb out of shield eats anything if she blocks nair. Even shine...upb has frames of invincibility. Its the reason Falco can't pressure her while she blocks.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

yeah its ********...you end up just going pew pew pew until you can get a smash off

 

[idea]

lol, try approaching by WDing with reverse uptilts toward her. from the sounds of it you should probably go sheik or something.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Raynex I have the same problem with the dair sometimes. It's just that fox moves so fast in the air that you go past them so that when you land, you're to far away for the shine to hit.
Try holding back as you're in the air so land closer to them. Or if they're still out of range you can turnaround and jab or utilt (jab will prolly get cc'd tho)

Samus falls over from the utilt at around 20%. So as long as she isn't actually CROUCHING, and just holding down while in the lag or stun of something (like stun from the dair) you can use it safely.

As for edgeguarding I have no clue lol.

I gotta try dair->utilt though, I have way too much trouble with samus so anything helps, really.

lol, i meant her.

 

[EWC]

What I try to do against samus is get her off of the ground, with something like dair-> uptilt or drillshine->uptilt or drillshine->nair->uptilt. Once she's in the air, I try to combo her with nairs. I suck against samus though, and I don't know if this is really a good idea.

 

[Falcinho]

Well one thing that worked for me was timing my dairs really late when i saw a CC downsmash coming.

However, the Samuses(?) you play against probably aren't that easy to read =/

When your shine doesn't connect, do you land behind or in front of them?

 

[RaynEX]

I land in front with dair and hit with it, but I'm too far to shine. lol who overshoots so far that they land BEHIND their opponent? Thats called fail spacing.

With the tech skill I have it isn't difficult to find openings and stuff, but when I get them and dair doesn't work its like WTF?! Without grab and drillshine (because it doesn't work for me more than half the time), it feels like I have absolutely nothing to do vs. Samus.

I mean I COULD camp. But then I wouldn't have got the kind of respect I got after playing Hbox @ e52. Mixing up aggro/defense is alot more effective than straight out camping if you do it right, imo.

 

[EWC]

A cool trick I like to use to help spacing aerials is to dash, shield to stop momentum, and immediately shffl oos. It isn't really that useful for fox, but it ***** with marth and falcon. The one thing I do use it for with fox for dair spacing. Obviously, you can't just approach with this, because you don't start the move until you're right on top of your opponent, but if you get an opening, I think this is very useful.

 

[NJzFinest]

upb out of shield eats anything if she blocks nair. Even shine...upb has frames of invincibility. Its the reason Falco can't pressure her while she blocks.

Er, I meant going completely past her as she shields and landing a decent range behind her. If she tries to up b, the uptilt will eat it.