Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Bl@ckChris]

kevin does this mean you'll want me to start double shining in shield pressure just in case this becomes a thing?

getting on your shield is hard enough -_-

 

[Dark Hart]

Double shining isn't hard, Chris

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Catfish combo

Smooth Criminal

 

[Bl@ckChris]

oh no, that's not the problem at all. doubleshine grabbing is the problem. double shine sh retreating nair is the problem. doubleshine to converting if the second shine hits is the problem. i can hit kevin with a lot of shines. i just can't hit him with much after it very often.

 

[Dr Peepee]

chris, you can play simply and still be effective. twitch can give me double shine practice if you don't want to learn it or don't think it's for you =)

 

[Bl@ckChris]

meh, eventually it'll be the next useful thing to learn i suppose. clearly first i need to figure out how to move to get you into shield. i also imagine learning how to pay attention hard enough to keep hitting you after i shine you will be useful first.

but i'll learn what it takes to be both a useful training partner and a good player of this character. given my time for such things though, you know as well as i do that my theory will have to precede my technical abilities.

 

[Dr Peepee]

to the luncheon!

 

[Divinokage]

Breaking shields? You gotta be kidding me..

 

[leffen]

Leffen:

do you consider threatening to break shields to be more of a mixup to "standard" shield pressure or part of that standard?

nullifying inputs could be done with a double shine alone, is it worth complicating beyond that? I'm asking this on a practical and theoretical level I suppose.

I consider it mostly to be a thing that they always have to keep in mind, which you should use to make win the mixup. In most cases it won't actually end up with their shield being broken, at least once people start to respect the fact that you can do it.

I think of it similarly as to the no tech situation. If both people do nothing, the tech chaser will win, since after a while the opponent stands up normally. Thus the burden of committing first is on the one getting tech chased. Its also similar to the system of chip damage in other fighting games. Both mechanics were designed to force the defender to break his guard.

In most cases, you actually won't break their shield, or punish their automatic getup, or chip them out but it's important to be able to use the fact that they're disadvantaged, they have a limited time, and you can essentially know more accurately exactly how much time they can hold shield, since you chose what moves you do, and they can't/its very hard to react to exactly how many shines you do, or if you what one of bair/nair/uair/fair you do

Thingy on what aerial to use:
-nair does very little shield damage, but fast and relatively safe and can be spaced away and to shield poke.

-Fair looks and behaves like a nair, but just when you think you can punish the "early nair", the second hit comes out. Throwing one of these in essentially keeps them honest, since they have to be that much better to react to what aerial you are using, and how you are using it.
It just makes them hesitate even more about getting out of shield, so you can then do more late nairs, since they'll be watching for what aerial you are doing, grab, or emptyjump shine to provoke them to leave shield, only for them to get shined.

-Uair leaves is great for shield poking, is as safe as falcos dair on shield, and leaves them in a much longer state of shield stun than nair/dair, nullifying more inputs and throwing off their timing even more.

-Dair. I'm still not sure as to how to exactly use dair, I usually use it at the percents where a dair hitconfirms (->shine/grab/utilt) will give you a heavy reward.

-Bair gives the most shield damage, is still safe, and is really good to retreat with and shield poke with. In some situations it also gives you the best reward as you don't need to hitconfirm anything.



@Practicality. I don't think that anything more than double shine is, at least atm, needed. The third shine is also a different timing, which makes it harder to do. A third shine also you potentially vulnerable if you actually hit the nair, or even the first shine.

I think that the double shine is usually the perfect balance. Once they start expecting doubleshines, you can just go back to single shine pressure, or you can do waveshine back (since they can't react to the second shine coming out, this will make them whiff their oos move)

This is not even considering grab, which should always be considered. However, it is less safe then aerial pressure, and against certain characters or in certain situations the grab isn't worth the risk because it won't give you enough reward.

One of these situations, which is one of the main inspirations to why I started fiddling with shield break setups, is when peach is at 120+%, where grabs don't get you anything. Even stray shines and aerials don't really phase her, so I wanted to make sure that I can switch her focus to "oh god my shield is gonna break I have to get out" which makes it sooo much easier to get a usmash punish.

It makes it really easy to bait out a nair/up b oos or a roll.

tl;dr: Its something that is a part of the standard mixup, but usually just as a threat. However its mostly in certain situations,where your other options don't have as good of a reward as usual, you really push this threat make your opponent react in a way that favors you. The fact that Fox's laser can give you kills from unexpectedly low percent also makes the reward for getting these very high, even at lower percent.

anyway I've gone on for way to long, hope someone finds this marginally useful :D

 

[rjgbadger]

so i've been trying to implement a lot more illusion edge cancels into my movement. on yoshi's story from the ledge you can double jump then waveland backwards off the plat, then double jump and illusion cancel the top plat. also cancelling the short illusion from the ledge on the lower platforms is baller.

also on pokemon stadium i like the double illusions on the platforms. such a cool way to quickly traverse the stage

^also leffen i really liked that post,and its unfortunate you got the ban hammer on tournies :/

 

[leffen]

I think the most important edge cancel is to learn how to consistently edge cancel your recovery side b's. After seeing how useful Luigi's side b edgecancel is I've started to work on this more, but I have yet to perfect it.



Its unfortunate, but the best thing I can do is to learn from it! I'm gonna stop (control) my troll persona here on smashboards and focus on being helpful instead. Hopefully my interest in smash persists, but if the ban sticks it is unlikely.

edit: well, as long as the ban does not spread, I'll probably stick around, at least for a while. The fact that many more than I thought have voiced their support for me motivates me to keep playing. In my region people are more or less entirely on my side, too. If I quit, I won't be able to show my haters how much I can better myself!

 

[MaskedMarth]

I'm another person who really likes your informative posts and your Fox, and I hope you find ways to keep motivated both about Smash and about bettering yourself so you can be on good terms with the community when the ban is lifted.

 

[BTmoney]

-Fair looks and behaves like a nair, but just when you think you can punish the "early nair", the second hit comes out. Throwing one of these in essentially keeps them honest, since they have to be that much better to react to what aerial you are using, and how you are using it.
It just makes them hesitate even more about getting out of shield, so you can then do more late nairs, since they'll be watching for what aerial you are doing, grab, or emptyjump shine to provoke them to leave shield, only for them to get shined.

Well, ain't that a *****. I just started looking at holes in shield pressure.

 

[Magus420]

You can just buffer roll out of perfect multishines after the first air shine btw. Wouldn't even need to take the hit by dropping shield. The extra 2(?) frames you need to wait after air shine's JC window begins before jumping to get a ground jump and not a DJ leaves a larger opening than ground shine to air shine does.

 

[Geez]

This Strategy is gonna be to hard for any1 to do is tourney anyway your just gonna end up getting grabbed.when u can keep it simple nice and sweet

Bair perfect on to some1 shild then double shine into up smash, breaking some1 shield.

i have to see it to believe it

 

[unknown522]

You can just buffer roll out of perfect multishines after the first air shine btw. Wouldn't even need to take the hit by dropping shield. The extra 2(?) frames you need to wait after air shine's JC window begins before jumping to get a ground jump and not a DJ leaves a larger opening than ground shine to air shine does.

I love you.

No homo

 

[ant-d]

When Jigglypuff misses a Rest

Those multi shines are way too difficult.
Yeah, we should stick to techniques that can be used in a tournament setting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4PZUXX5IkU

Invulnerable to DI/SDI too.

 

[Bing]

Wait... what happened to Leffen? Whats this about a ban? I'm really confused

 

[Lovage]

You can just buffer roll out of perfect multishines after the first air shine btw. Wouldn't even need to take the hit by dropping shield. The extra 2(?) frames you need to wait after air shine's JC window begins before jumping to get a ground jump and not a DJ leaves a larger opening than ground shine to air shine does.

* bows

 

[omgwtfToph]

Leffen:

do you consider threatening to break shields to be more of a mixup to "standard" shield pressure or part of that standard?

nullifying inputs could be done with a double shine alone, is it worth complicating beyond that? I'm asking this on a practical and theoretical level I suppose.

I'm not Leffen, but the main time I find shining more than twice to be useful is when the opponent is standing at the ledge and multishining would yield a shield poke that pushes them off. This is as Fox; obviously with Falco, getting a shield poke off your multishine anywhere on the stage is useful. And for practical purposes, while I've never fully broken a shield with a multishine, multishining leads to shine hits (either via shield poke, or people dropping their shield) pretty often.

Like blackchris said though, it's often hard to capitalize directly off of those shine hits, so it's more for positioning than anything.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i'm still not really sure how to go about the ditto. my vids exist from my first fox tournament now, and all of my losers sets got recorded. i'm mostly worried about anything you guys have to say about the ditto though, and here is me vs lozr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QivJEshEq5c - bl@ckchris vs lozr.

if you have time, i still feel like i look like i have no idea what i'm doing vs falco, even though i win these sets, so if you have some words of wisdom of how either of these vs falco sets could be done better, i'd appreciate it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdlQZHkmkwA - me vs lightsyde

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRgUotyptfU - me vs cam

thanks in advance for any help.

 

[omgwtfToph]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QivJEshEq5c - bl@ckchris vs lozr.

3 possibly not-so-obvious things I think you could work on:

1. Hit confirming (makes sense, because this is a lot harder with Fox than any other character, let alone a character like Ganon) - i.e. when you try to thunders combo, miss the jab, but go for the uair anyway
2. Not fighting out of position
3. Not panicking when you are caught out of position

 

[Lovage]

O____O


i

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sup new foxie boards

 

[Smooth Criminal]

sup Sveet

Smooth Criminal

 

[SinisterB]

hey guys

you don't know me but i feel like i know all of you

 

[mastermoo420]

Fox v. Falco

Any tips or links to posts about the match-up? This match-up is just really annoying. I don't see how I can really approach (any suggestions? lasers stop me dead in my tracks and am I even supposed to try to approach lasers or what?), and the shield pressure is stupid as well (what's punishable and when?). Because of the shield pressure, there isn't really much room (for me) to get any good grabs out and combo off of that.

tl;dr - HALP FOX V. FALCO

 

[unknown522]

Everyone needs help in that matchup

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well falco can't laser you very well if you are on platforms. Against most falcos you can eventually convince them to try to fullhop laser you, and when they do you can take control of the ground level. I find you can usually get directly below them before they finish their jump (fox is pretty fast guys) which pretty much gives you a free bair if he does anything except shield (you can do what you want with your stage control, thats just what I usually do). You can also approach on the ground when you are comfortable with it. Basically its just getting used to [power]shielding the laser and wavedashing immediately.

I dont think the match-up is that bad. If you're on point with your reactions and spacing, you can consistently punish falco's tech options, but Falco can obviously do the same (plus his shine negates that necessity at low percents). I don't really see much of a difference in damage output, so it comes down to the ability to land first hits. The only advantage I give falco is if both players are trying to roshambo ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1qcf4OAUrw#t=6m50s ) then falco usually wins due to his hitboxes being slightly bigger and his bair being auto cancelable.

 

[Voltz]

Yeah, it is not very bad. Probably 53-47 in Falco's favor.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox needs to outposition his opponent using his jump, platform game, or ground mobility to win in first hit combat. Alternatively, he can also try to get close enough to get the jump on them in order to win combat exchanges. These aren't as effective vs Falco when Falco has established ground control because removing the versatility of Fox's ground movement forces him to rely more on playing around the opponent with his full jump, which can't stall as long as a dash dance (and he can't shield, crouch, or do various other useful defensive things during it).

All this really means is your shield game has to be insane as far as timings go to compensate the laser thing. You have to be really careful about committing during your FJ so you don't bair, whiff, and then get dash dance > JC shine > lolcombo'd to death over and over. When on platforms, you have to be comfortable waiting for him to commit and recognizing when he's trying to bait you and not fall for it. Finally, you need patience because his control mechanisms tend to wear down patience and make people go for stupid aggressive things when he's established presence. You have to alter combat before you can go after him.

That was almost all defense. On offense, once he's knocked over or his control has been broken... stick to the *******. If they like to LHDL, shield it and kill him with bair OOS or shine (whichever is appropriate).

Falco is hard.

 

[mastermoo420]

*sigh* Falco IS hard. Is there any good match-up against him? If I was so serious as to learn another character against him just for the sake of countering him? Also, is it possible at all to space at all far enough such that you prevent him from being able to laser - lest you approach him with SH-nairs or otherwise - but also that he's unable to take any another action? Dunno if this is even possible but just in a realistic sense rather than theoretical. I hate Falco a lot.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't think learning another character for Falco is really worth it. But if you did I think Peach, Falco, and Marth are probably your best choices. Mostly because Marth and Peach have the FD counterpick and Falco goes even with himself invariably. I don't think anyone really counters him or possesses a strictly favourable matchup against him. Best you're going to get is, "Generally even, wins on some stages, loses on others."

Sheik is also a reasonable choice but the stipulation is you're good at the d-throw tech chase to the point where it effectively functions like a chain grab; the chain grabs afford more room for error for a variety of reasons so unless you're willing to invest time I don't recommend it. There's also more controversy around her matchup against Falco in general, I feel. So some people will tell you she is countered by the bird and others will say she cooks him. So feel free to try it, but beware.

 

[mastermoo420]

*sighhhhh* **** the Falco match-up I think I'm too lazy/stubborn. I'm going to try for the Fox v. Falco match-up. I have to figure something out eventually...

 

[KirbyKaze]

Comboing Falco to death is a good way to improve in the matchup. Focus on landing or setting up u-throw. Take advantage of the low range on his crouch shine by spacing your nairs or placing them low. Requires some finesse but you have to know how to do this with nair because bair isn't enough. It has too many restrictions on when you can use it.

 

[bearsfan092]

New to Fox (and the game kinda in general). Am I supposed to use Up+A or C stick for usmash oos?

 

[Navn]

Welcome to Melee

I usually mash up on the control stick and Cstick at the same time. If you're having trouble you can delay the cstick a little bit. Practise.

 

[mastermoo420]

Oh, right. Sorry for the slow reply on this, but thanks KK.

As for u-smash, I prefer using the control stick and C-stick as well. You should be delaying the C-stick a bit because the way it's supposed to be done is it's being jump-canceled so the jump has to come out first. It's kind of why some people do up+A because the actual smash attack is done by pressing "A" within a few frames after you press up.

tl;dr - It's preference. Both work

 

[Voltz]

*sigh* Falco IS hard. Is there any good match-up against him? If I was so serious as to learn another character against him just for the sake of countering him? Also, is it possible at all to space at all far enough such that you prevent him from being able to laser - lest you approach him with SH-nairs or otherwise - but also that he's unable to take any another action? Dunno if this is even possible but just in a realistic sense rather than theoretical. I hate Falco a lot.

Well, he does not have a counter, but marth and ICs are about even, so they could be a good option.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I'm getting a lot better at fighting Falco and I think it's stemming from relying more on more on a tight shield game (this means running into and WDing out of your shield effectively) and less on a FJ baiting game (because the better the Falco is, the harder they shut that **** down, I find).

Also, focus hard on the Falco when he SHs and do your best to predict if he's going to laser or aerial. If he's going to laser, back up and get ready to shield (powershield is optimal, but shielding with good timing is fine); alternatively, you can stuff the laser with an aerial or usmash if you're close enough, or FJ over it. If he's going to do an aerial, dash back and DD grab it.

Those are the two pieces of advice I'm training myself to follow when I play the matchup now.