Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Bl@ckChris]

thanks toph. i definitely noticed the hit confirming one, and kind of cringed when i saw that thunders whiff, among other things.

learning what positions are actually useful will certainly be one of the next steps i have to take. i just learned a lot about movement, so maybe by the time i get more videos, i'll be a little cleaner from that perspective as well.

 

[Silent Wolf]

thunders combo on falco is overrated. drill grab him in his azz. waveshine dash attack/dsmash at high percents depending on stage positioning.

thunders is still good tho, especially if they arent doing much about it.

 

[Zoler]

Agreed with SW, thunders combo is kinda bad vs falco but at least it puts them in a spot where they are pressured and you still have the advantage. Falco players always panic.

Vs falco all you need to do is use shield and platforms well, in combination with lots of damage every time you hit him.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah i really want to start using dtilt in place of that jab. it just looks like more fun.

 

[omgwtfToph]

thunders combo on falco is overrated. drill grab him in his ***. waveshine dash attack/dsmash at high percents depending on stage positioning.

uh ohhh. silent wolf in the hizzouseeee

waveshine dtilt is tight too but only javi does it. it seems pretty ez tho

waveshine dash attack is POPPIN above like fitty and it seems like a lot of the time they miss the tech too so you can drill dat...

waveshine usmash actually works vs spacies if you're super fast (aka if you're eggm)

and I agree that

Vs falco all you need to do is use shield and platforms well, in combination with lots of damage every time you hit him.

is a really good summary of the falco matchup lol

 

[Bones0]

I wonder how viable waveshining spacies is (using dashes into JCed shines to keep up with them). I was working on waveshining Marth across the stage every time a while back (just for fun), but vs. Falco it could be way better since getting him off stage is pretty much GG.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Ground bounce makes it ****ty. They can tech, and they can jump immediately upon sliding off the ledge (into anything). Even in theory it's not very good, let alone in practice.

 

[unknown522]

Or they can just grab the ledge

 

[JC Shine Studios]

I wonder how viable waveshining spacies is (using dashes into JCed shines to keep up with them). I was working on waveshining Marth across the stage every time a while back (just for fun), but vs. Falco it could be way better since getting him off stage is pretty much GG.

Is there a more efficient way of following them up than just waveshine --> dash cancel JCshine --> 'nother waveshine or whatever else?

also is dash canceling the only way to get the shine off out of your dash?

 

[Silent Wolf]

you would only wanna do waveshine, dash jc shine if falco was right by the ledge for the 2nd shine. and if you do the 2nd shine in the air a bit yorue more likely to shine him off the stage then into it.

JCing is the only way to get a shine out of initial dash, not dash canceling. dash canceling is when u press down to cancel the full run animation

 

[Constellations]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=851ZHMj3lS8
If some people could critique my fox I'd really appreciate it. Btw this is one of the matchups I'm clueless about so some basic Fox vs Falcon advice would be nice as well.

 

[Omni]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=851ZHMj3lS8
If some people could critique my fox I'd really appreciate it. Btw this is one of the matchups I'm clueless about so some basic Fox vs Falcon advice would be nice as well.

- Too much dash dance -> SHFFL'd aerial approaches. Your approaching was very linear and very easy to read/interrupt.
- Not enough grab reads. You're keeping the Falcon in his shield by maximizing your SHFFL'ing, but you're not capitalizing by mixing it up with grabs.
- Slow down. You fall into a pattern of just dash dancing and then just attacking straight up. Dance around your opponent and a bit more to see how they react to your movement, then react to their reaction. That Falcon simply played very reactionary to your approaches.
- Landed lots of grounded shines. Those are free grabs and/or up-smashes each time. If you see yourself landing shine after a SHFFL, be confident in your tech and be prepared to follow-up the shine with a combo.
- Missed several shine gimps. Get those in.
- Work on your DI. Know when you're vulnerable and DI accordingly even if you don't get hit.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I played Darrell for like 5 hours last night and I took a few notes about Fox vs. Samus. I think I'm getting pretty good at that matchup. Here's what I wrote:

- In the neutral game, don't try to outsmart the Samus if you don't have to.
- Don't get caught trying to play out of your shield too much. WDing towards Samus OOS is easily stuffed. Prioritize getting to safety.
- Bair of every kind is amazing. SH bair covers a lot of her ledge options.
- Deep nair is really good. If Samus CCs, shield or shine -> dair.
- When she hits you with fair, esp. from the ledge, SDI away.
- Recognize when she's in "grab mode" and get out of there.
- When edgeguarding from the stage, after you make her lose her grapple, she's vulnerable to vs. Marth-style edgeguarding.
- (Not necessarily just vs. Samus) When trying to camp, your goal is to fight them on your own terms when they inevitably approach. Make sure you're watching the opponent closely when you camp.

 

[Bones0]

Is there a more efficient way of following them up than just waveshine --> dash cancel JCshine --> 'nother waveshine or whatever else?

also is dash canceling the only way to get the shine off out of your dash?

Dash cancelling is a horrible name because it implies you can cancel your dash. I call it run cancelling to avoid this confusion. Like Silent Wolf said, holding down won't do anything until you've reached a full run. It's slower than jumping into a grounded shine, but you maintain more of your momentum so it's usually better for things like shine-usmash out of a run where you are worried about them being too far away after the shine. I was suggesting shine -> WD -> dash -> jump -> grounded shine to hit them again.

you would only wanna do waveshine, dash jc shine if falco was right by the ledge for the 2nd shine. and if you do the 2nd shine in the air a bit yorue more likely to shine him off the stage then into it.

JCing is the only way to get a shine out of initial dash, not dash canceling. dash canceling is when u press down to cancel the full run animation

Why would doing the shine in the air make it more likely for him to be knocked off stage?

 

[JC Shine Studios]

you would only wanna do waveshine, dash jc shine if falco was right by the ledge for the 2nd shine. and if you do the 2nd shine in the air a bit yorue more likely to shine him off the stage then into it.

JCing is the only way to get a shine out of initial dash, not dash canceling. dash canceling is when u press down to cancel the full run animation

Is that because of the ground bounce or whatever? How does that work exactly, if theres a thread or something explaining the mechanic feel free to show me lol

And yeah I meant the full run not the initial dash

Dash cancelling is a horrible name because it implies you can cancel your dash. I call it run cancelling to avoid this confusion. Like Silent Wolf said, holding down won't do anything until you've reached a full run. It's slower than jumping into a grounded shine, but you maintain more of your momentum so it's usually better for things like shine-usmash out of a run where you are worried about them being too far away after the shine. I was suggesting shine -> WD -> dash -> jump -> grounded shine to hit them again.

So (really broken down for my slow white person brain) Waveshine --> Dash --> Jump --> FF Land --> Grounded shine? And why do this in the first place? iirc this is only for spacies right?

Also thanks a lot for the help in advance, really useful <3

 

[Bones0]

Is that because of the ground bounce or whatever? How does that work exactly, if theres a thread or something explaining the mechanic feel free to show me lol

And yeah I meant the full run not the initial dash



So (really broken down for my slow white person brain) Waveshine --> Dash --> Jump --> FF Land --> Grounded shine? And why do this in the first place? iirc this is only for spacies right?

Also thanks a lot for the help in advance, really useful <3

I am white... why do I get the feeling that everyone on the internet doesn't think of me as being white? >.>

Waveshine -> Dash -> Jump -> Shine

Shining in the air actually causes Fox and Falco to immediately move downward slightly. If you have just left the ground from a jump (or are halfway through a platform), shining will move you back onto the ground so that you can jump cancel with your first jump instead of your second. This is the whole basis behind why multishining works. So what I am suggesting is that you dash to move next to the opponent, then you jump, then you shine on the FIRST FRAME after you leave the ground, and it will be a grounded shine. When Fox jumps, he spends 3 frames on the ground in a crouching animation (called jumpsquat). If you shine on frame 4, you will land back on the ground.

Hopefully that clears up what I was talking about. If you want to experiment with this yourself, go pick Falco (he has 5 frames of jumpsquat instead of 3, so it is easier to do) and Kongo Jungle 64. Stand on the rotating platforms, and when the one you are standing on is rising, try to jump and then shine right as you leave the ground. The platforms moving up make it easier to grounded shine because even if you are a frame or two late with your shine, you are still close enough to the platform to land from the shine's small movement.

Here's a little demo (I'm Falco). Notice how it looked like I was glued to the platform immediately after the third shine, and that allowed me to JC it into another grounded shine. If I had gone too high or low relative to the platform, I would have simply shined, stayed airborne, and then double jumped out of the shine.

 

[omgwtfToph]

yeah I've been calling it "run cancelling" forever cuz that's what it is. "dash cancel" is an archaic term that was coined primarily by people who don't consciously grasp the difference between dash/run

 

[Bones0]

The worst is when people call it crouch cancelling. lol

 

[Zoler]

So who do you play Bones that let you waveshine them off the stage ? :D

 

[unknown522]

@ bones: if I didn't already know that you are white, I would've that you're either Asian, or 14

 

[Bones0]

lol That's straight I guess. Tai told me at Apex that he thought I was black, so at least I'm hitting all the demographics. XD

 

[unknown522]

Indeed.

I'm assuming you're like 19-20?

 

[Metal Reeper]

I just assume everyone is black.
I mean
Fox

 

[Bones0]

Indeed.

I'm assuming you're like 19-20?

22

 

[JC Shine Studios]

I am white... why do I get the feeling that everyone on the internet doesn't think of me as being white? >.>

Waveshine -> Dash -> Jump -> Shine

Shining in the air actually causes Fox and Falco to immediately move downward slightly. If you have just left the ground from a jump (or are halfway through a platform), shining will move you back onto the ground so that you can jump cancel with your first jump instead of your second. This is the whole basis behind why multishining works. So what I am suggesting is that you dash to move next to the opponent, then you jump, then you shine on the FIRST FRAME after you leave the ground, and it will be a grounded shine. When Fox jumps, he spends 3 frames on the ground in a crouching animation (called jumpsquat). If you shine on frame 4, you will land back on the ground.

Hopefully that clears up what I was talking about. If you want to experiment with this yourself, go pick Falco (he has 5 frames of jumpsquat instead of 3, so it is easier to do) and Kongo Jungle 64. Stand on the rotating platforms, and when the one you are standing on is rising, try to jump and then shine right as you leave the ground. The platforms moving up make it easier to grounded shine because even if you are a frame or two late with your shine, you are still close enough to the platform to land from the shine's small movement.

Here's a little demo (I'm Falco). Notice how it looked like I was glued to the platform immediately after the third shine, and that allowed me to JC it into another grounded shine. If I had gone too high or low relative to the platform, I would have simply shined, stayed airborne, and then double jumped out of the shine.

Man how are you gonna say you're white? Look at that Adidas shirt with those beast ass headphones #swagswagswagswag

Anyway I know how to multishine/JC Shine lol. The only thing I'm unsure of is how it applies to the "immediately moving downward" thing. Does a JC Shine count as "in the air" and send the space animals downward like you said?

 

[unknown522]

22

lies. nobody is older than me

 

[Bones0]

I think you are confusing jumping into a grounded shine with JCing shines. The fact that shines immediately move downward a little bit is the whole basis behind multishining. If you didn't move down when you shined, you wouldn't be able to doubleshine. You would just end up double jumping out of the second shine. Because it moves you down back onto the ground, you are still using your first jump for the JC. When you are doing the shine out of a dash like I was describing, you leave out the first shine and just jump into a shine (which pulls you back down to the ground the same way it does in a multishine).

Did that clear it up for you? All you really need to understand is that you can jump out of a dash, and you can shine after a jump. This allows you to shine players even if they are within your dash range (where you would be unable to run cancel a shine). You can just jump and shine and WL onto a plat (the combo popularized by Dark), but if you shine as early as possible, you will stay on the ground enabling you to waveshine out. That means you can do an endless chain of waveshines with dashes in between. Shine -> WD -> Dash -> Jump -> Shine -> WD
If you can't jump into grounded shines, then you can't do the last WD in that sequence. You'll just DJ and airdodge.

lies. nobody is older than me

You're older than me by 3 months. You also registered 14 days before me. You also have 583 more posts than me. I guess I can't win. lulz

 

[Silent Wolf]

Why would doing the shine in the air make it more likely for him to be knocked off stage?

I dont know.

I dont normally go for dash jc shine after a waveshine, but i often do uthrow, waveshine, dash, jump (leaving ground slightly) shine, which sends them off stage without bounce nearly every time. im assuming they have the same effect here, because i dont see why they wouldnt. although ill admit this game does have some rather strange properties, especially in terms of people being on the ground lol. one that comes to mind is being able to dash grab people off the ground after waveshine as fox.

 

[JC Shine Studios]

Wow I'm completely ******** I don't know how I mixed those up. Your whole explanation of multishining threw me off I guess.


Like it literally just clicked after the first sentence... Jeez lol

Thanks a lot again! Also if you know off the top of your head, do you have and vids showing this in action? I'll be your best friend :D

 

[Silent Wolf]

honestly i dont think ive tested it enough to claim that the effects are different when youre in the air or not. its just in my mind from a few instances from the rare occasions i get to fight falco, so its likely that those results were merely DI or under some other condition.

id also like to point out that even if it were the case, that mid-air shine sent them off without stage contact more reliably, you would have to be basically perfect to do it fast enough to hit him with such a shine after waveshine, let alone reliably.

edit: also , word @ run canceling.

 

[JC Shine Studios]

Yeah I wouldn't think it'd be the best out of a waveshine, but maybe as a mix-up out of an utilt near the edge or something? Idk I'll test some stuff this weekend and maybe post here.

Also am I correct in thinking that the whole stage contact/bounce thing only applies to the spacies?

And that the only thing they get out of it is being able to tech it if they hit the stage?

 

[PGH Carroll]

Im black.
Have you seen me play?
or IRL
Blackest Fox 2013

 

[leffen]

I dont know.

I dont normally go for dash jc shine after a waveshine, but i often do uthrow, waveshine, dash, jump (leaving ground slightly) shine, which sends them off stage without bounce nearly every time. im assuming they have the same effect here, because i dont see why they wouldnt. although ill admit this game does have some rather strange properties, especially in terms of people being on the ground lol. one that comes to mind is being able to dash grab people off the ground after waveshine as fox.

The dash grab against spacies is just because computers always roll back when you run towards them when they're in the tech animation, causing them to do a back roll, which has 6 frames of vulnerability before going invincible. The dash grab doesnt work on humans.

 

[unknown522]

@ bones: oh snap!

Edit: well, being younger is better once you're legal to do everything

@ leffen/Otto: you can also do it with marth's d-throw on a CPU. Fox/falco are only vulnerable when they are laying on their back and they do their back roll getup. I actually made a vid about it.

 

[Silent Wolf]

oh thats cool. i wasnt sure why it always worked on cpus but not humans.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC5L9K8GwF4 @ 1:30

definitely the most memorable shine example i know of. in a different world swift might've won this set...

 

[Zoler]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC5L9K8GwF4 @ 1:30

definitely the most memorable shine example i know of. in a different world swift might've won this set...

Oh damn... If he just up-bd instead of side b after the shine he could've grabbed the ledge, or if he just side-bd to the ledge too

 

[Bl@ckChris]

my main thought was that if he had just used the outside of his shine, there wouldn't been no tech chance. but those certainly would've solved the issue at hand too.

 

[Bones0]

honestly i dont think ive tested it enough to claim that the effects are different when youre in the air or not. its just in my mind from a few instances from the rare occasions i get to fight falco, so its likely that those results were merely DI or under some other condition.

id also like to point out that even if it were the case, that mid-air shine sent them off without stage contact more reliably, you would have to be basically perfect to do it fast enough to hit him with such a shine after waveshine, let alone reliably.

edit: also , word @ run canceling.

Yeah, I think the being in the air thing is just a coincidence. I have almost never seen anyone actually try the grounded shine, so it's probably the same. Where you hit them with the shine doesn't change their trajectory so a grounded one should be the same. I'll mess around with it when I get back from school. Maybe it's the timing making a difference such that going in the air delays the shine just the right amount so that they are higher in their bounce.

 

[JC Shine Studios]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC5L9K8GwF4 @ 1:30

definitely the most memorable shine example i know of. in a different world swift might've won this set...

Hmmm yeah like Bones said I think it may just be a coincidence that it happened but I'll test it with some friends this weekend and maybe I'll find something useful lol