Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Exeggutorr]

vs. M2K

vs. Dre

vs. +C

vs. Russ

I'm sure Toph or Unknown would probably give you a better critque, but I noticed that you don't approach often with Nair and too much (atleast against Marth) with shine. You missed L cancels and techs, but that's stuff that is remedied by just playing a lot I guess(I'm going through it too). I might be wrong here, but you were going for a lot of grabs also. Just somethings I noticed.

 

[omgwtfToph]

"approach Marth with shine less often and nair more often" is bad advice. Don't follow it (at least not blindly)

Everything else he said is true though, it seemed like you really just ... don't have much techskill or a gameplan. It seemed like your only capitalization off of stuff was when situations were given to you, i.e. when your opponent did something REALLY stupid. You have a pretty good dashdance but you don't do anything out of it; when you try to just avoid what the opponent is doing you do a pretty good job of keeping yourself safe but you aren't looking for opportunities to punish whiffed moves or anything.

Also you shine after every aerial. Learn how to only shine after aerials when the shine will do something for you.

Also you need to learn how to combo and basically just get your overall techskill/movement up.

All in all, nothing we say is going to magically make you better, you just gotta play more and stuff will come naturally.

 

[Apasher]

I can't wait till I can actually play people outside of tournaments.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah you just need more experience in general man. The best course of action IMO is go to a few smashfests and just get a ton of games in.

 

[Apasher]

Going to SFs has always been difficult for me. Parent johns are the worst.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You aren't allowed to hang out with friends? Thats all a smashfest is: a bunch of friends playing smash (usually a day long event)

 

[Metal Reeper]

@Apasher I watched your first match vs Dre.

One thing that's good vs Marth is running in and shielding. Most of the time Marth will throw out fairs, jabs, and sometimes even fsmash just to space you out. Run in and shieldgrab, or Usmash OoS.
You also weren't grabbing the ledge vs Marth. You were missing some Uthrow Uairs. Running in and shining Marth is for the most part safe. Just be wary of Marth's WD OoS>Fsmash.
I totally agree that you should of been nairing more.
Your ground movement wasn't too bad but your platform movement for sure needs work.
There were afew times where you could of gotten a grab off but just didn't. Surely because you didn't know you could given the situation, but things like that just come from experience.
You really want to let Marth come to you and punish when he does something stupid like an early fair.

 

[Apasher]

You aren't allowed to hang out with friends? Thats all a smashfest is: a bunch of friends playing smash (usually a day long event)

I mean, in their point of view, it's just me going to a stranger's house playing smash with other strangers. And apparently, they're too paranoid to even talk to them and get to know them to make sure that they aren't crackheads/alcoholics/pedophiles, etc.

I can invite friends from my school or go to their houses, but they're below my skill level.

Also, I've been having difficulties determining when is the right time to use nair. When should I use nair? Especially vs Marth.

 

[UlyssesTheTrojan]

You won't find too many alcoholic crackhead pedophiles in the smash community.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I mean, in their point of view, it's just me going to a stranger's house playing smash with other strangers. And apparently, they're too paranoid to even talk to them and get to know them to make sure that they aren't crackheads/alcoholics/pedophiles, etc.

I can invite friends from my school or go to their houses, but they're below my skill level.

Also, I've been having difficulties determining when is the right time to use nair. When should I use nair? Especially vs Marth.

Well go to a tournament, meet someone there for the first time. After that instead of saying its someone you met on the internet, say its a friend you met at a tournament. Your parents are reasonable; if you make the argument about seeing your friends and having fun, they will eventually warm up to it

 

[Apasher]

Well go to a tournament, meet someone there for the first time. After that instead of saying its someone you met on the internet, say its a friend you met at a tournament. Your parents are reasonable; if you make the argument about seeing your friends and having fun, they will eventually warm up to it

Tried that a while ago, didn't work. Their reasoning is "oh, they might act normal at the tournament, but you never know. They still might be a bad influence."

They would only let me go if a friend of mine (that they actually know) regularly goes to SFs and I go with him. The problem is, he plays Brawl and goes to Brawlfests.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Take a cube to some brawl fests. There is usually someone there that will play, and if not there will probably be a P:M setup at least.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

question, how do you execute shine-> bair? You know when you hit them with the shine but then you instantly bair/nair/dair? i've tried it so many times, and i've only done it twice, i thought i had to hit with the top part of the shine so i could have enough time to jump and aerial, but i've seen people like mango/lucky do it in the inner most part of it.

So to recap my question is: how to do it - do you use the control stick to jump - Is it practical, or just to show off or intimadate

 

[The Business]

question, how do you execute shine-> bair? You know when you hit them with the shine but then you instantly bair/nair/dair? i've tried it so many times, and i've only done it twice, i thought i had to hit with the top part of the shine so i could have enough time to jump and aerial, but i've seen people like mango/lucky do it in the inner most part of it.

So to recap my question is: how to do it - do you use the control stick to jump - Is it practical, or just to show off or intimadate

use the control stick to jump and c stick to aerial, i think it only works if you hit them with the top of the shine or they DI into it.

keyword think.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

use the control stick to jump and c stick to aerial, i think it only works if you hit them with the top of the shine or they DI into it.

keyword think.

Yeah my keyword though was "thought" i've always guessed it was that, but i wanna make sure now

 

[noobird]

yup hit with top of shine for fox. with falco you can hit with like anywhere on the shine lol. except sometimes at high percents you have to hit with bottom.

for shine nair use z to neutral air and control stick to jump

 

[MountainGoat]

Any tips on edgeguarding Doc? Seems like either pills get in the way or he goes low and I try to shine he up Bs me out of it. Do I just need better shine timing on the low ones? What do I do about high recoveries?

 

[Metal Reeper]

Any tips on edgeguarding Doc? Seems like either pills get in the way or he goes low and I try to shine he up Bs me out of it. Do I just need better shine timing on the low ones? What do I do about high recoveries?

Edgeguarding Doc is HARD.
When he is recovering grab the ledge, then Doc will pill the ledge. You need to firefox stall so the pill doesn't hit you. Then shine>bair>land on stage.
Never, ever try to trade your shine with his upB trust me it will just never work. When you are invincible the ledge frames go for the shine, if the shine does miss, then the bair will hopefully clip him. Also, if you see him use his DownB to stall his recovery, make sure you ledge hop>firefox stall instead of rolling.
I hope this helps and trust me. It does take practice. I hate Doc.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

can't u just like...short hop by the ledge until he does something where you have to grab it. and then back air at some point to make sure he's dead? whats what i think i would do. maybe throw a shine in there if he commits to anything foolish like down b.

 

[PGH Carroll]

you can light sheild the pill and grab the edge then invincable bair

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGvX_lJj9hA&t=27s

 

[BTmoney]

Question1:
Does any character have a response to multishine shield pressure other than a frame perfect samus up B?
I am inclined to believe that they don't.

Question2:
If not, why ever do anything other than multishine on shield?

Question3:
Why not just immediately JC shine grab (as in approaching with falling aerial on shield->shine->grab) rather than doing whatever else?

 

[genkaku]

every kind of shield pressure has answers. The idea is to mix up your pressure/condition in a way that keeps someone from being able to anticipate and punish you *correctly.*
If you're trying to break their shield or even poke you're doing it wrong.
You pretty much want them to get an incorrect read and then either have a hitbox out to catch their mistake or be ready to chase them down if they roll or whatever.

Sometimes if you watch mango's shield pressure he'll put a little hole in say the second arial and then space differently so that when armada or whoever tries to punish the same hole on the third arial he's out of the way and can start a combo off their misread.

It's like rps only really fast and cool and you can cheat a little bit.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Any tips on edgeguarding Doc? Seems like either pills get in the way or he goes low and I try to shine he up Bs me out of it. Do I just need better shine timing on the low ones? What do I do about high recoveries?

Low recoveries:

Be good at grabbing the edge quickly. Then be good at managing your invulnerability. Ledgehop backwards to refresh invulnerability, don't up+B because you can maneuver out of the way of his own up+B hitbox when you use ledgehops and they're easier to control. Then shine / bair him somewhere.

High recoveries:

His dair kind of has high priority below so try to aim at him more from the side when you bair and you're good.

 

[voorhese]

Question1:
Does any character have a response to multishine shield pressure other than a frame perfect samus up B?
I am inclined to believe that they don't.

Question2:
If not, why ever do anything other than multishine on shield?

Question3:
Why not just immediately JC shine grab (as in approaching with falling aerial on shield->shine->grab) rather than doing whatever else?

The simple answer; every form of shield pressure has answers, and requires a bit of anticipation/reaction from both players, so using 1 or 2 forms of shield pressure only lets your opponent escape an otherwise horrible situation with relative ease. While in the flip side, if you only are using 1 or 2 defensive option, you are sure to get punished and punished hard for it.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

How should I look at playing support fox in teams? With pp as my teammate these days, of course I have to urge to look at what lozr/yay do, but id like a little guidance on what to look for from you guys.

 

[4 Aces]

Question1:
Does any character have a response to multishine shield pressure other than a frame perfect samus up B?
I am inclined to believe that they don't.

Question2:
If not, why ever do anything other than multishine on shield?

Question3:
Why not just immediately JC shine grab (as in approaching with falling aerial on shield->shine->grab) rather than doing whatever else?

In theory, multishine shield pressure pretty much leads to shield break. It's just that most people can't do more than 3-4 in a row fast enough to keep them in hitstun.

As for question 3: It's about mix-ups. Every shield pressure option has answers. Early shffl aerial --> shine gives them a small opportunity to shield grab/attack you before the shine comes out, if they're paying attention. Or maybe I'm just slow.

Late aerial --> shine gives them waay less chance to respond to the aerial --> shine; however, if they know you're gonna late nair or something, they can hit you before you attack.

Shine --> Grab is good when opponents like to hold their shield a little longer after your initial barrage. But it comes with its own holes and defects. Idk, wavedash out before grab and hit you when you whiff...or hit you before the grab connects. *shrugs*

And there are plenty of other scenarios and shield pressure options. That's why it's good to mix things up.

 

[unknown522]

^ the first statement is wrong

 

[omgwtfToph]

it's more like perfect multishine shield pressure leads to the opponent just dropping their shield and taking a shine hit, and it's not humanly possible to react to that while doing multishine shield pressure into a combo lol

that's why even theoretically, perfect multishine shield pressure isn't perfect

 

[BTmoney]

Expand unknown?

Well shines hit instantly, you can JC a soon as frame 7 and the opponent is stuck in shield stun until frame 9.

So you have either 2 frames to get another shine out or 1 if you can't get 2 inputs in 1/60th of a second. Correct me if I am wrong. But you cannot roll or drop shield while in shield stun.


I think it comes down to that it is literally just too hard and hit confirming say like the 11th shine on shield would also be hard lol

 

[omgwtfToph]

yo I did 10 shines on lovage's shield once. Does that mean the next one woulda been a shield break? D:

edit: man fox dittos with oscar are like the funnest thing in melee for me lol

 

[Metal Reeper]

ppl can shield di the shines

 

[genkaku]

why did sakurai make it so that you can shine out of jumpsquat in the first place?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You cant...

I dont think its 11 shines to break. Dark did it in one of his combo vids against a link on FD. It was 5 or 6 shines and it took ~2 seconds realtime

 

[leffen]

Breaking shields is something everyone should learn to threaten with, but not through only spamming shines imo.
Perfectly multishining does not mean you can't let go of your shield, Magus posted about this earlier.
You also gotta factor in shines staling, which makes it leave holes.


The fact that fox can kill you of a shieldbreak at 20% with lasers makes it important to learn imo.

Using bair/doubleshine usmash (both do a LOT of shield damage) and the like to break shields is imo the best way.
I think one of multishines best functions is that it nullifies inputs. A nair oos input after the first shine, becomes nullified (since you can't do it inbetween two shines). This often causes them to either just hold shield, or release it (since most ppl usually don't hold shield after doing the nair oos for very long).

This makes doubleshine->bair/usmash/grab a very strong option, since even rolls or spotdodge often get hit or nullified.

 

[PGH Carroll]

What? What are you doing here

 

[Wavedash Master]

Hello, I just recently picked up Fox and I'm trying to learn ways to improve (such as methods of practicing tech skill). If anybody wants to offer some tidbits, I have a video against my friend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0amdDKlNxw

Also, after reading through a couple of pages of this thread, what is ledge hopping and multishining?

 

[unknown522]

Naw man. I don't believe this is really happening

 

[leffen]

You don't believe what?

 

[unknown522]

This page

 

[Dr Peepee]

Leffen:

do you consider threatening to break shields to be more of a mixup to "standard" shield pressure or part of that standard?

nullifying inputs could be done with a double shine alone, is it worth complicating beyond that? I'm asking this on a practical and theoretical level I suppose.