Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Wenbobular]

Just jump shine waveland onto a platform shai drop drill reverse doubleshinegrab DUH!!!!!

 

[Bones0]

I just get uaired OoS whenever I try to practice stuff with WL onto plats.


Also... Wow...

 

[unknown522]

Are you fighting marth / falcon / ganon or something?

 

[Bones0]

Marth... forever alone with a Marth main...

 

[unknown522]

Oh. I see

 

[KirbyKaze]

Drillshine > nair is okay at very specific percent ranges and/or if you're just sure they're going to DI for something else (nair chains are often better than throw but take way more finesse to set up). But even versus Marth, Mario, etc. who have a decent weight & gravity mix for nair chains to work, I don't really find it worthwhile to set up because u-smash, grab, and various others are more reliable.

Nair does have the benefit of being low lag though so if you're unsure of what to do you can do it and then respond to their following action. It's also generally safe from counter-attacks if you do it correctly (and at the correct times) but I'm realizing more and more that those are two very misunderstood concepts. And they're rather voluminous so I don't want to explain them...

In general your first hits want to somehow lead into grab with this character. Or u-smash if grab doesn't work for some reason or if the 18% and heavy stun is more useful in some way (which is possible; grab is unreliable vs some characters and sometimes 18% is just a nice amount of damage). That said, grab is almost always useful so in most common MUs it should be the focus.

As a general rule of thumb, if you're going to try to convert a first hit into something other than grab or u-smash (which are your two most easily hit and most reliable moves to convert a first hit into a good combo or amazingly exploitable positional advantage) then it should be something that does something more for the situation you are in. For instance - if you knock someone down near the edge, the double shine is obviously a huge play and probably better than u-smash or throw (although even then there's other factors that make this a heuristic rather than a perfect rule). Similarly, after shining Sheik or Falcon to the edge, sometimes the nair or f-smash can be a strong play (f-smash takes some tech skill though) simply because the low lag on the nair allows you to follow it up with a shine or similar nonsense. However, again, these are highly situational instances and they're not always easy to spot.

Use weird stuff at your own risk. I'm leaving some stuff out (u-tilt and uair - they both lead to ridiculous advantage when used properly and are often worth looking for rather than the throw & smash) but I don't want to overcomplicate this post and the opportunities to use those two often come up after throw & u-smash anyway.

 

[Jim Morrison]

drillshine -> turnaround U-tilt is so 2008.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Not a fan of that one tbh.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Is full hop N-air still godlike against people trying to come back up from the ledge.

 

[unknown522]

Why n-air when you can b-air?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Because N-air I can easily cover the roll option with an U-tilt without turning around :D.

and other reasons concerning facing my back to the edge.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'd rather have my back to the edge than my face to the edge.

 

[Bones0]

I'd rather have my back to the edge than my face to the edge.

The only reason you would want to face away is because of bair, or maybe utilt. For everything else you either have to be facing towards the ledge or there is no real difference.

For the record, I do prefer to keep my back to the ledge. But only because bair and utilt are amazing. lol

 

[Jim Morrison]

One big advantage of facing away from the edge is being able to grab it by wavedashing immedeately, but I can dashdance turnaround and WD as well, so meh, sorta personal preference for a weaker option, I ADMIT.

 

[unknown522]

Aww man. Too lazy to argue the merits of b-air vs n-air at that point.

Maybe later

 

[SUNG666]

I always thought waveshine into reverse u tilt was bad, can't they ASDI down so they won't get popped up? (against chars like peach sheik falcon) I don't remember the last time I've seen that work

//edit// BTW the fox boards go in, it's really funny

 

[unknown522]

Yeah up to like 35% before the u-tilt. (might be less than that). But if they do ground the self and don't tech or tech in place then you get another u-tilt for free. If they tech roll though, then your combo is kinda gone.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Drill utilt is **** as a mix up but doing it every time is a bad idea. Doing it at low percents (just over the percent where cc will ground them and not crouch them) ***** chars like peach. If they don't cc I always get a string of hits after and if they do cc then what unknown said. Doing it at high percents for an effecient utilt -> uair kill is good too but usually I do something else.

 

[unknown522]

A combo I somewhat commonly get on peaches is drill -> shine -> turnaround u-tilt -> n-air (maybe 2x). Then eventually when they DI away, then I go for the edgeguard.

Or sometimes after the first n-air, I shine them off

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

One big advantage of facing away from the edge is being able to grab it by wavedashing immedeately, but I can dashdance turnaround and WD as well, so meh, sorta personal preference for a weaker option, I ADMIT.

Well yeah, its pretty much for this reason. DD->WD takes ~50% longer than just WD. Just having your back to the edge also doesn't telegraph when you plan to take the edge and it constantly threatens it. Plus you can bair and bair *****.

 

[MaskedMarth]

Lots of players telegraph when they're not going to take the edge and it makes it really easy for spacies in particular to sweet-spot every time.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Right but unless I play against a Sheik, I don't consider wavedashing back to grab the edge an option. I give up a positional advantage at the stage and put myself on the edge for no reason, giving them a free return. If it was something obvious like them going down and jumping back up to refresh invincibility, I can take it with DD wavedash, and stuff like shine-up B stall is too fast.
Wavedashing back onto the edge while your opponent is -on- the ledge is usually not a good idea imo. It is a good idea when they are recovering back to the stage though.

EDIT: We're all talking about the same thing right? The opponent already has the edge and is returning back on stage, they're not still recovering.

 

[Wenbobular]

Stealing the ledge during ledgestalls isn't something anyone expects, and if they don't react fast enough they're basically just dead

It's an option to keep in mind

 

[Winston]

A combo I somewhat commonly get on peaches is drill -> shine -> turnaround u-tilt -> n-air (maybe 2x). Then eventually when they DI away, then I go for the edgeguard.

Or sometimes after the first n-air, I shine them off

I like shine into utilt, but doesn't walk forward utilt get you a better hitbox for comboing usually?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Right but unless I play against a Sheik, I don't consider wavedashing back to grab the edge an option. I give up a positional advantage at the stage and put myself on the edge for no reason, giving them a free return.

Well you might not want to do it often, but you can't never do it. If they are being patient in their return to stage, you can reapply pressure by threatening to take the edge (you don't usually have to do it unless they don't get the message). Sometimes I just wavedash towards them once to scare them.

If it was something obvious like them going down and jumping back up to refresh invincibility, I can take it with DD wavedash, and stuff like shine-up B stall is too fast.
Wavedashing back onto the edge while your opponent is -on- the ledge is usually not a good idea imo. It is a good idea when they are recovering back to the stage though.

EDIT: We're all talking about the same thing right? The opponent already has the edge and is returning back on stage, they're not still recovering.

The main problem with those is that it adds 5-10 frames to an action that is normally 15 frames. If they are reacting, that gives them more time to start to do something. If you do it more than once or twice, your opponent will probably know exactly what you have planned. And sometimes you don't have 5-10 extra frames, you only have X amount of frames to act before they grab the edge first.

You can probably get away with this for a long time (I know I did), but eventually you start conserving your frames like they are your last penny. Against the really good players, every advantage must be taken.

Stealing the ledge during ledgestalls isn't something anyone expects, and if they don't react fast enough they're basically just dead

It's an option to keep in mind

yeah, if you are against m2k when he starts dropping down and regrabbing, just stand backwards about a WD away. I guarantee he will do anything except drop down again.

 

[unknown522]

I like shine into utilt, but doesn't walk forward utilt get you a better hitbox for comboing usually?

yes. Just difficult

 

[Lovage]

stealing the edge is really good esp with a PC walkoff

 

[Jim Morrison]

The main problem with those is that it adds 5-10 frames to an action that is normally 15 frames. If they are reacting, that gives them more time to start to do something. If you do it more than once or twice, your opponent will probably know exactly what you have planned. And sometimes you don't have 5-10 extra frames, you only have X amount of frames to act before they grab the edge first.

You can probably get away with this for a long time (I know I did), but eventually you start conserving your frames like they are your last penny. Against the really good players, every advantage must be taken.

What about the running off and sweetspotting the side B on the ledge, how fast is that? Granted, it's a looot unsafer, but I'm wondering how fast it would be when done at the same distance it would take to wavedash onto the ledge. I always figured it'd be roughly the same.

PS: Shine-turnaround-grab, it adds so much more to your game when you can pressure their shield with a grab while facing away.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

nah sideb is considerably slower than wavedash. Fox's sideb doesn't grab til ~16, plus just getting to the edge. Falco has to wait the whole sideb animation so hes even worse off.

Shine turn around only adds like 6 frames on its own so its not bad on its own, but if you are dashing first it costs you.

And to expand on what Lovage said, pc edgehog might be the fastest method to grab the edge, if you can do it, use it.

 

[Coffeeblack]

Shine turnaround up b is good too

 

[Jim Morrison]

Oh snap, no I wasn't talking about shine turnaround edgegrab, I mean during shield pressure, on a related side-note. Shine-turnaround-grab is killer pressure, since you can now grab after a D-air while facing them with your back.

 

[Proskater]

Oh snap, no I wasn't talking about shine turnaround edgegrab, I mean during shield pressure, on a related side-note. Shine-turnaround-grab is killer pressure, since you can now grab after a D-air while facing them with your back.

I remember doing this when I was 12

So many moves oos beat shine turnaround grab.

 

[S l o X]

unknown's pivot edgeguarding vs sheik is really good and i dont really see anyone else do it

seems pretty hard tho

 

[Jim Morrison]

I remember doing this when I was 12

So many moves oos beat shine turnaround grab.

Pressure isn't literally -doing- the move, it's making your opponent respect the possibility of you doing it.

 

[Proskater]

Pressure isn't literally -doing- the move, it's making your opponent respect the possibility of you doing it.

That....IS bones??

 

[Metal Reeper]

Any tips on wd out of shine backwards?

 

[knightpraetor]

well if they are still in shield when you are in shine behind their shield, i think the turn around grab is pretty good...as is wd out, and uptilt to deal with sheik's OOS nair. the only other thing i can think of that wins are shines..and you don't really use it against fox falco. definitely pretty good on marth and falcon if they try to sit in shield a little long

 

[voorhese]

Any tips on wd out of shine backwards?

Don't slide to the position of ur wavedash, and wait to go to it until after ur jump.

 

[ShroudedOne]

More people should ledgedash.

With invuln.

 

[KirbyKaze]

stealing the edge is really good esp with a PC walkoff

This

WD FF and SH FF are also underrated, underused, etc