Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Dr Peepee]

Changing the SH Nair is good but it is still telegraphing your option severely. If someone knows you want to SH Nair, even if they're not sure how you're going to do it, doesn't that seem like you'd be easier to deal with? If you acted like you wanted to SH Nair but instead started doing bigger jumps or Bair'ing and Usmash'ing, etc more, then your opponent would be more likely to respect all of your options, and in turn actually open your SH Nair option back up and make it more potent.

 

[unknown522]

Needs more drill

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm afraid to drill because it feels so weak =(

(unless it's mid combo/reset or I catch someone from the edge)

but it's mad good if you connect and connect with it well haha

 

[Tarv]

I like to drillshine into an upthrow ---> upsmash because it makes me feel special. Then after that I SD because that's how I play.

Also, is fox's dash attack a good approach option? Maybe not as good of an apporach as a well space SH Nair, or a FH/platform Bair. Speaking of which is there a reason why most foxes don't utilt (or dtilt) in order to better string combos? Dash attack to utilt to bair was like the first combo I did with fox, heh.

 

[unknown522]

Yeah major problem is getting SDI'd or not hitting well. I hate when that happens, but it is one of the fastest answers to CC

 

[Metal Reeper]

Dair>grab works surprisingly well. I always thought like, people ALWAYS DI the hell out of that dair. But I feel now that's only for a high level of play.
Lets talk dair>grab more. Im curious.

 

[Lovage]

I'm afraid to drill because it feels so weak =(

(unless it's mid combo/reset or I catch someone from the edge)

but it's mad good if you connect and connect with it well haha

fox is all feeling

we chatted about this at KOC

nair and drill are so interchangeable (for both spacies) that the "feeling" of which move to use is way better than the knowledge of how to use it.

 

[Strong Badam]

I... kind of agree? But I find that what I "feel" like doing is often influenced by prior knowledge and my playstyle. Most players don't specifically think "okay here I'm going to nair and here I'm going to drill," it just happens by instinct, so I'm not sure stating that the decision should be left up to "feel" really says much at all in any sense.

 

[Lovage]

knowledge is for virgins who get sick and wont MM my falcon like ARMADA

feelings are for actual pro players


--

Thanks! Good stuff to think about.

...I like to SH nair but I try to significantly overshoot/undershoot it to catch dash backs/bait grabs, respectively (and if they try to CC when I'm overshooting the hope is that I land past them). Do you see those things as an exception to what you're saying, or are those still not that good to use?

ZF, consider m2k whos only mixup in his entire life is short hop nair or fadeback fullhop nair. overshooting/undershooting are regular adjustments you can make to your nair, just like any other move, dr.pp's argument is there are other way better approaches depending on the microsituation

 

[Dr Peepee]

fox is all feeling

we chatted about this at KOC

nair and drill are so interchangeable (for both spacies) that the "feeling" of which move to use is way better than the knowledge of how to use it.

Mhmmm I do agree that if you can feel that situation where it will connect you should totally go for it. No argument there =)

 

[Cactuar]

Emotional content.

 

[unknown522]

Knowledge is so important

 

[Strong Badam]

apparently it's for virgins?

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

Emotional content.

bruce lee all day

but really i've been more of an intuitive player than a "knowledge" based player

 

[FrootLoop]

once you dash short hop aerial you can fade back way more than I always think is possible. It always ends up with very odd reactions because nobody does it so they react so strongly to seeing you dash short hop.

 

[genkaku]

can you crouch under and shine someone out of a shffled arial? Is it reliable?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Dair is really good, you just need to learn "Hoodoo Voodoo", a skill for technical Foxes who reach LV79 using the "Green Fox" skill tree. It discourages SDI and reduces the number of hits done in some multi-hit moves (dair, uair) with some regularity.

I find dair is good for catching people running away because his legs are falling forward and you don't have to release the stick to create neutral - I feel this helps retain momentum. And for me personally I feel it helps me hold back if I realize I'm gonna miss to cut my forward distance by a lot, which is also useful. It's horrible vs airborne foes but I feel people also play badly in some of the situations they encounter after drilling an airborne foe (that isn't a space animal or Peach).

It's okay vs shield since the stun is basically where you'd put it if you did a completely middle-of-the-jump nair as a pressure mixup. The fact that it hits so low is useful for getting people who WD OOS through you when they expect a SH bair or nair, or FJ anything. I also find people tend to either shield grab at it all the time or never at all for some reason (there's seriously no middle ground) so if you can figure out which one they fall into, the mixup paths and how to influence their shield habits and crap from that point basically plays itself. As long as you're not a bidoof and keep dairing into shine because you want that bubble to melt... instead of shining into grab or straight grabbing >_>

I think dair is generally really good vs crouch because they're holding down to cover or because their expectation is they're going to be hit by a soft move. Most characters who use true-crouch a lot are trying to draw you into doing very specific things or else they're just holding down and hoping the for the best (and the latter isn't too hard to exploit anyway). So if you can spot their lures and how they follow that action up, constructing the plan is simple enough. I think people are generally afraid of grabbing on complacent opponents or nudging them with things like spaced f-tilt, which can be another great tool (f-tilting a non-Armada Peach at like 40% so she counterattacks and whiffs is a reasonable albeit vaguely gimmicky way to procure a free... whatever the hell you want). Push her.

Ledgehop drill gets a lot of hate but it's just used badly, it's not actually that bad.

 

[Silent Wolf]

knowledge and feel go hand in hand; although without one or the other, each is useless (unreliable)

but to have the feel you gotta be pro and not a ****in virgin like lovage said

 

[KirbyKaze]

If virgins are disqualified then how is Armada our current world champion by statistical ranking?

 

[S l o X]

running shine is good lots of options and because fox

cactuar train me

 

[Cactuar]

Cactuar training takes a week. Basically involves me walking in circles around you and telling you why you are bad, while telling you how to be less bad.

Oh, and cheesesteaks.

 

[KirbyKaze]

This is actually preferable to the old training method. He basically just tossed your character onto the ground and danced around it (a mix of jive and traditional ballet depending on his mood) while he dragged his sword across your character's face explaining why Marth is the worst of the top tier characters, possibly borderline, requires him to be so much smarter than his opponent to do anything, and how you're so bad at the game.

There were still cheesesteaks.

 

[TheLake]

mhmm I really want cheesesteak now :/

 

[Lovage]

If virgins are disqualified then how is Armada our current world champion by statistical ranking?

while aramda is great at SSBM

he is actually a huge nerd bc he practices with his brother 6 hours a day since 2008

just ask the leffester about it

 

[KirbyKaze]

Lovage you don't get it I'm on your side dummy

I'm not in an Armada Nation FBgroup >_>

DUMMY

 

[leffen]

Relying on "feeling" over knowledge just means that you do things you can't explain why they necessarily work the way they do. Its the stupid concept as "I have faith"...


but I mean, who knows, it could also just be that not getting out of pools is what you're aiming for, so playing with feeling like Lovage could help you achieve that which with knowledge you never could.

 

[KirbyKaze]

A lot of things are easily learned by intuition and playing. Instincts exist for a reason.

I still think consciously understanding catalyzes this because you can pick apart and play with the process but either works and it's different for different learning styles.

I learn well through books. I learned this game largely through research. This is not everyone's story - I know many who didn't take this route and are very good. Some are better than me.

 

[Lovage]

A lot of things are easily learned by intuition and playing. Instincts exist for a reason.

I still think consciously understanding catalyzes this because you can pick apart and play with the process but either works and it's different for different learning styles.

I learn well through books. I learned this game largely through research. This is not everyone's story - I know many who didn't take this route and are very good. Some are better than me.

LMAO tool alert

u think outside the game????

#MANGONATION!!

tpyical canadian..

 

[leffen]

I mean, is there any top player who can really say that he just "feels" like certain moves work, but can't explain why he does so?

I'm not talking about learning by playing compared to reading framedata, it's just that there is no real difference between saying "i feel like drill is better than nair in some situations" like lovage and saying "I know in which situations drill are better than nair" other than that the one who doesn't use the cop out of "I FEEEEEEEL" often knows more, and/or can just explain himself better.

Even when asking Armada about why he does X or Y, who has said that he plays by just doing what he thinks he'll work without having much of a conscious thought, you could still get a straight answer to exactly why he uses it, its advantages along with its flaws and so on.


also i think lovage is high

 

[Lovage]

why do u think im stoned?

cuz i argued with pp that nair and dair can be interchangable moves depending on the sit. LOL, what a revolutionary concept

 

[S l o X]

Cactuar training takes a week. Basically involves me walking in circles around you and telling you why you are bad, while telling you how to be less bad.

Oh, and cheesesteaks.

So you will?

sick i'll be right over

 

[leffen]

that was almost 12 hours ago, of course I don't think you're stoned now because of what you posted 12 hours ago LMAO

 

[Lovage]

well i think you are high 24/7

or at least whenever u find a computer to sit at

but then at apex you acted all cool to ppl whats w/ that?



# LEFFSTER NATIONNN GO SWEDEN

 

[unknown522]

Damn I want another cheesesteak cactus

 

[rokimomi]

faxbrads

...never had cheesesteak...

 

[Divinokage]

I mean, is there any top player who can really say that he just "feels" like certain moves work, but can't explain why he does so?

I'm not talking about learning by playing compared to reading framedata, it's just that there is no real difference between saying "i feel like drill is better than nair in some situations" like lovage and saying "I know in which situations drill are better than nair" other than that the one who doesn't use the cop out of "I FEEEEEEEL" often knows more, and/or can just explain himself better.

Even when asking Armada about why he does X or Y, who has said that he plays by just doing what he thinks he'll work without having much of a conscious thought, you could still get a straight answer to exactly why he uses it, its advantages along with its flaws and so on.


also i think lovage is high

Ill show you how it "feels" to lose $$$$.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oscar you think (or thought) about this game a lot. I know 'cuz you told me. Ur a dumb dumb. Typical noobFox <3

Edit:

I'm leaving the above but holy **** my mind got ***** and it felt amazing. Good stuff Oscar.

 

[Strong Badam]

cactus
bring me a cheesesteak
at apex or something i guess

 

[Lovage]

yo cactus bring thatttttt dro at apex....

 

[FireFly]

I like to drillshine into an upthrow ---> upsmash because it makes me feel special. Then after that I SD because that's how I play.

Also, is fox's dash attack a good approach option? Maybe not as good of an apporach as a well space SH Nair, or a FH/platform Bair. Speaking of which is there a reason why most foxes don't utilt (or dtilt) in order to better string combos? Dash attack to utilt to bair was like the first combo I did with fox, heh.

Dash attack is good against Foxes that are dash dance camping. They won't expect it but they will catch on if you keep doing it.