Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[ShroudedOne]

I'll agree that Peach simply doesn't dominate stocks like other characters (looking at you, spacies), but I wouldn't say that they don't mean the same. I would argue that she can still be given to large momentum swings through big combos/downsmash/etc, and against someone like Armada especially, getting that close still means a fair amount.

 

[rokimomi]

I may not know the armada you're talking about bones but the armada i've seen definitely dominates entire stocks, especially spacie ones.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, but a lot of the stocks he dominates were initiated with the use of trades and CCs. Inevitably some of the time he will trade/CC when he shouldn't have and basically give up free % to his opponent. I'm just pointing out that if Armada is consistently winning, you can't really say someone is close to beating him in a set. He's making those trades and sacrifices because he knows that if he keeps playing that way he'll take 4 stocks before he loses them. And no, not every stock includes a trade or CC or hard spacing read, but it happens often enough that it impacts the stock scores of games more than other matchups with the same game counts. Surely you don't think if Armada played with the goal of 4-stocking someone that it would look the same as a match where he is only concerned with winning. This also goes back to how Peach is much better with a lead than when she's behind. She needs those cushion stocks to play effectively, and when she doesn't have them, a lot of her tools end up costing her too large of a % of her remaining stocks to give away.

 

[FrootLoop]

wouldn't her power of trades and such make it harder to dominate peach too?

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, exactly. She just has a very moderating effect on stock counts.

 

[S l o X]

lol new york what have you done

 

[the real jman]

All I said was is if u get 4-0 don't say the matches were close because u should have won at least 1 game if they were so close hahahaha dumb smashers now a days


I don't no where all the peach vs fox blahblahblah come from you guys type to much laughing my *** off

 

[Engo]

People were saying the same thing about Mango getting 3-0'd by Armada at Apex. "They were all close and it's mango so it doesn't count blah blah blah"

 

[Armada]

Haha, even though it was 4-0 it certainly was pretty damn close lmao. I hadn't practiced enough before/during the tournament, and it showed =/ Its pretty funny to think about
"What if we had played in NTSC?"...I could very well have won 4-0 instead lol.

No johns though, I'm definitely gonna win next time. I'm also gonna spend a lot of time learning the Sheik matchup.. The last 9/10 or so of my tournament losses outside of Armada has been to Sheik and that was to Dr. Peepee lol.

Hopefully the vids will go up on youtube soon so I can have ppl critique

Well EC is clearly playing way more then WC so no johns man
Remember 3 of our 4 games was on PS too =)

 

[the real jman]

People were saying the same thing about Mango getting 3-0'd by Armada at Apex. "They were all close and it's mango so it doesn't count blah blah blah"

Mango is my ****in ***** to the max so I can say this get his **** out your mouth hahahahhahahahaha

 

[S l o X]

what has PA done to jman

 

[leffen]

Sheesh, why are you guys up in arms over this lol.
I thought it was pretty close, and considering how every match was kill% makes "well peach takes % to do%" kind of invalid...(and my matches vs armada don't really feature that many trades anymore tbh)

If you don't think that I could've at least won some of the matches with ntsc, then I'd ask you to rethink. The version difference is HUGE for Fox. Not trying to debate what could've happened in PAL because that is just pointless lol.

Well EC is clearly playing way more then WC so no johns man
Remember 3 of our 4 games was on PS too =)

lol, im not trying to john

If I was trying to john, I'd say something like "Well Armada has been playing for 4 more years than me, and during the time we've both played he has very likely still put in double my hours per day and hes gone to more than twice as many tournaments, has a million times more Fox practice than I have Peach practice and even now that my coast is more active than his, he still plays more hours than I do since I spend most of my time in school"

But like I already said ;
I am not johning, even though all of the above is true, so please stop trying to call me out on "johning" because you should know thats not what I mean to do :>



Oh, and yes, 3/4 games were on PS, but in a bo7 set it basically just requires me to win on 2 other stages than PS and to win 2 games on PS...

Example:
Game 1: BF (AR wins)
Game 2: PS (I win)
Game 3: FD (AR wins)
Game 4: YS [no PS](I win) Current score 2-2
Game 5: BF [no FD available] (I win)
Game 6: BF [no FD available] (AR wins)
Game 7: PS/YS [no YS available]

edit: jesus **** im starting to despise the "no johns" term... everyone is ****ing obsessed with it and just scream it out every time someone says anything after losing. Can you fking think for yourself and actually call out on WHY something is not valid instead of just shouting "WELL NO JOHNS" or is that just too hard? Explaining and trying to figure out why you lost is really important for improving but atm its fruitless because even top players can't let anything hurt their E-peen.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I'm with Leffen on this one. The matches were good and honestly a lot of you guys would do well to watch them and see what Leffen does right instead of taking the typical "stream monster" mentality and calling him free etc lol

 

[Meneks]

Chillin knows what I'm saying.. you smashers now a days are to soft grow a pair of balls and say what the **** you feel despite who the smasher is you will get farther that way

Alright..

STFU

 

[MaskedMarth]

Bones, watch the set. Maybe Armada's much better at finishing matches. Maybe the coin came up heads four times. But if last stock high percent even position isn't close, what is?

The matches being on PS is much more relevant. Being "close" on PS doesn't inspire confidence in Leffen on other stages, especially Armada's CPs. I mean, the set is "close", but not that close. I'm still interested in seeing if Leffen can close the gap.

And come on Leffen and Armada, you're totally johning while pretending not to.

 

[the real jman]

Alright..

STFU

And who are you? nobody hahahaahah step ya game up kid I can do this all day hahaha

 

[leffen]

Just fyi recently (beauty 5 and a little while back) I've started to get much much closer on all neutrals... before it was pretty rare for me (or any other fox really) to come close on any stage thats not YS/PS but lately no matter the stage it has always been close (even on FD) so I'm pretty sure that I'll be ready to win on his stages too next time.


I'd love critique on my matches btw. I know that my main problem is choking/becoming impatient when he camps/stalls/is at kill%, and I KNOW that I should run away way more (every time I focus on this and made him approach on my terms I did way better) but other than that I'm open to suggestions.

I ****ing refuse to be this bad at the game anymore, even though I'm buried in schoolwork and have a social life outside of smash to maintain I promise everyone that I will do ****ing everything to beat Armada and to win Apex. I'm going to study every single mistake I do and every single habit they have and then I'm going to implement all of my ideas and ****ing steamroll everyone.

I have a case of extreme HUNGER

 

[Jim Morrison]

I'm with Leffen on this one. The matches were good and honestly a lot of you guys would do well to watch them and see what Leffen does right instead of taking the typical "stream monster" mentality and calling him free etc lol

And I'm with Toph on this one, the matches looked crisp and Leffen definitely knows what he's doing vs Peach. Looks like only a matter of time before he takes games from Armada and looking towards taking a set from him.

I have no idea how he would compare to other Foxes in regards to other matches, I just know that Leffen seems ridiculously good vs Peach.

 

[leffen]

I usually take games of Armada

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I'd love critique on my matches btw. I know that my main problem is choking/becoming impatient when he camps/stalls/is at kill%, and I KNOW that I should run away way more (every time I focus on this and made him approach on my terms I did way better) but other than that I'm open to suggestions.

I ****ing refuse to be this bad at the game anymore, even though I'm buried in schoolwork and have a social life outside of smash to maintain I promise everyone that I will do ****ing everything to beat Armada and to win Apex. I'm going to study every single mistake I do and every single habit they have and then I'm going to implement all of my ideas and ****ing steamroll everyone.

I have a case of extreme HUNGER

I'd love to read/listen to your match critique, maybe you can do a video? Just a match where you record your vouce over or something.

Anyway, good luck

 

[Jim Morrison]

The only thing I can really think of to give as advice on you vs Armada, is to play even more patient. You did very well but still went in for some of the more risky/greedy situations which could have gone well but also could have gone bad. Watch for the openings you can really take safely, which you did fine a lot, but the few mistakes cost you.
I think you did really well on the last stock last match on attempting to bring it back, the lasers forcing him to approach and then jumping over him with a back-air worked well. Stuff like that would be great, forcing Armada to make plays instead of the other way around, where he's able to react to you.

Also:

I'd love to read/listen to your match critique, maybe you can do a video? Just a match where you record your vouce over or something.

Anyway, good luck

This, critiquing your own matches and putting it actually on paper (or in this thread) is a great tool to spot your mistakes instead of just watching vids and thinking "oh yeah that was bad"

 

[Bones0]

Bones, watch the set. Maybe Armada's much better at finishing matches. Maybe the coin came up heads four times. But if last stock high percent even position isn't close, what is?

The matches being on PS is much more relevant. Being "close" on PS doesn't inspire confidence in Leffen on other stages, especially Armada's CPs. I mean, the set is "close", but not that close. I'm still interested in seeing if Leffen can close the gap.

And come on Leffen and Armada, you're totally johning while pretending not to.

Sure, maybe Armada got lucky 4 times in a row, but there's a 93.75% chance Armada simply outplayed him. I didn't mean to make it sound like Leffen is actually losing pretty badly or anything like that (haven't even seen the videos yet), and I think it's just a matter of time before he takes a set/tournament. The problem with pointing out that every game came to last stock high % is that Armada consistently won in that situation. Almost any two good players will take 3 stocks from each other every game especially when one is a Peach, so the fourth stock is usually where one of the players pulls away.

So yeah, it's just dumb to call a set close when it was a shutout in a best of 7. Close games # close set.



Also, you Mango fanboys should be worried about Armada getting such good Fox practice. ;D

 

[leffen]

Almost any two good players will take 3 stocks from each other every game especially when one is a Peach, so the fourth stock is usually where one of the players pulls away.

This is not right at all lol. At higher levels one mistake is often death, which makes it very easy for matches not to end up to last stock 100+%. Want examples? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK4rQ5nLg3k&feature=relmfu

I guess PP isn't a good player
(notice how pp got 4-0'd and wasn't nearly as close as me but still managed to take a whole set and should've 4 stocked armada in the last game next set...)
Overtriforce, who beat me, got 4 stocked in GF. Over took 4 stocks in total in their winners set.

I think you HIGHLY underestimate how good peach is at ****** characters.
Armada lost 4 stocks in total in his 8 man pool @ Smashers Reunion.
No one but Cyr (1 game) took him to last stock at ESA, 100+ man national (I didn't face him but Over, Ice, Fuzzyness etc did)

and armada "always clutching it out" is simply him performing a little better than me (and I usually always take at least one game, and often 2 stock/jv2/with a pretty big margin on PS

Get your facts fkn straight d00d.



I've actually been considering doing videos with my commentary over it (people seem to like my commentary) just critiquing, thinking and experimenting.

Since you guys suggested it I'll make sure this happens asap, but atm I'm pretty busy. When I start I'll start doing critiques on others (I'm currently teaching a lot of ppl in my area, and we are getting a dazzle asap so it could work really well)

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'll agree that Peach simply doesn't dominate stocks like other characters (looking at you, spacies)

I agree completely.

Bones just because a character isn't designed to freaking JV 5-stock someone doesn't mean they can't dominate whole stocks >.>

All you need to "dominate" a stock is outrageously wild punishment (sporadically wild punishment counts) and/or the ability to keep on top of a staggered opponent. Peach can do both. She has a very solid ledge pressure game with turnip > float zoning and her punishment is good enough to kill a lot of opponents pretty instantly. She's good at keeping people from getting their footing back (except Puff).

You can say her game is more reliant on trading and whatever but really I think her game has progressed to the point where it's realistic for her to dominate stocks because it happens all the time...

 

[leffen]

Against Fox she can't play on trades/CC when the Fox plays properly... when the fox knows the matchup, he simply won't go for things that will trade in her favor (read:everything except at kill%) so trading becomes really rare and since Armada's style has developed to fight against this the matchup is much more focused around Peach getting 1 good confirm and then just ****** fox while Fox is the one who has to get 4-5 hits per stock.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox is squishy. It's totally reasonable to pick that as your way to handle him with any of the viable characters since he's probably got the advantage in straight combat.

 

[Bones0]

I agree completely.

Bones just because a character isn't designed to freaking JV 5-stock someone doesn't mean they can't dominate whole stocks >.>

I never said she couldn't...

 

[Armada]

Wow relax Leffen. You are getting super deffensive when something that can be seen as bad is in the same sentence as you.
I just said that EC is playing much more then WC overall caus we barely have any players left that is playing outside of tournaments.

Yeah I know only winning on PS twice is needed in that example.
Yeah "no johns" is a overused term for sure but you actually have build up the personality of johning a lot (in combination of lies happens too). But yeah I agree realize why you lose is a perfect step to do better the next time. But always sounding like you do is not only "trying to figure out why you lost". Even Ice said you should stop johning after your set against Over now last time.

I know it's not just me when I think "Leffen use extremly much johns".

Peach is not that bad at rapeing chars like some people make it to sound (not according to me anyway) but she is clearly behind many chars on this topic.

 

[Bones0]

"Leffen use extremly much johns".

r ofl

 

[PK Webb]

lol i love jman posts....but i agree with jman, like at zenith i got m2k sheik down to last stock both games high percent but lost both times. i got ****ing *****. that **** gonna stop now. i think i got enough skill to beat most smashers if i put my mind to it so on that note where da money matches at for rom/apex???

 

[leffen]

I'm not trying to be "defensive" I'm just trying to put an end to the mindless "no john" spam.

You didn't "just say that ec is playing much more" you said "ec is playing way more than wc SO NO JOHNS". One is offensive, one isn't.

and I just told you to shut it with the stupid "lol u john a lot" and then you go on a rant and explain how I do things that can be considered a "john". If you have a problem with me doing anything to "excuse" my losses then fine, tell me one of those examples (give me an example of me trying to excuse my loss against over. Oh wait, there isnt any) but don't just say "WELL YOU ARE KNOWN FOR JOHNING" soooo yeaaaah i dont know how to say anything else but yeah ice also said you john ok? ok? well no i cannot think about an example but maybe you john too much? john? john? well no johns.


You displayed exactly what I said I hated in my previous post, mindless hating behind the term "john" to criticize anything that you don't fully understand. You at least tried to criticize me with "well 3/4 were on PS" and I answered that, I'd like to keep it that way instead of you constantly trying to throw **** at me instead of doing anything constructive.


also please put some more effort into grammar/spell checking your posts, they are very hard to understand imo.

@bones: LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL -dead-

 

[the real jman]

There u go webb u tell them

I don't care if u win by a stock, high percent last stock, half a stock winnings winning if u not first your last,and if u don't take a game its **** its happens too all that's the way I use to think when I played u guys should try it

 

[leffen]

The world isn't black and white Jman. Facts that lead to the result is are always useful in some way.


If you're gonna go at it like that, its ******** to not just go "it doesnt matter how many games you take, its all about who wins the set"

 

[$wag]

It sounds like leffens just trying to say that despite the 4-0, he's still making positive strides in the mu. I don't think that's a John.

 

[PK Webb]

if it comes to game 3 or 5 u lost but u didnt get ***** but getting 2-0'd or 3-0'd or 4-0'd u got ***** i think thats what he was getting at. but yea jman im not caring anymore im gonna start playing with confidence and start ****** harder then ever. promise that

 

[leffen]

It sounds like leffens just trying to say that despite the 4-0, he's still making positive strides in the mu. I don't think that's a John.

thank you and that is very true

 

[Armada]

Well Im not the only one that thinks you are very deffensive when it comes to beeing deffensive in arguments when it comes to you.

http://forum.smashbros.se.preview.c...id=905f0a29e1903b5cb0bef485734f583f&start=330

The thing O write about " Om det är något jag stör mig på är istället detta igelkottsförsvar du har så fort någon ens andas ditt namn på minsta lilla negativa sätt eller att allt skulle handla om dig"
(for the people that can't understand it basically means that he is tired of Leffens hedgehog deffensive when someone in any way say something bad about Leffen. Can be stuff he can work with as a person exc).

Yeah ofc I did mention things that can/should be considered a john (and when it comes to you close to the entire Swedish smash community knows it). The one with Over is impossible for me to prove cause you said it in a discussion with Ice/Me right after LF. Im not carring around with stuff to record evidence Im not that desperate. But Im not surprised you picked that one cause you knew I couldn't have evidence. Would been so fun if you actually could hear it from the streams from KFC but we are a little bit to far away from the microphone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fGnCHDqxcw
YT comment for example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Tt35eD6qI
Even DURING this set you johned so much that Fuzzy didn't even wanted to team with you anymore (he said he wanted to be back cause he thinks you has changed and yeah this was your worse one so better but still way to bad). I can understand cause you showed (by far) the worse sportmanship I have ever seen. That in combination with how much you were johning made him tired of teaming with you. I have actually never even heard about a case like that before so congratz for your accomplishment. Mostly you john IRL though which you also know. You mostly of them time trying to make someone else looks like the bad guy. Grow up and take some ****ing responsibillity for your actions instead of lie like a baby. One jonh/lie I find extremly funny happend during KFC 2 actually.

I talked about PM with Slynus in Denmark and he said you complained a lot about loseing to me (first KFC). He also said that you told him I had played the game way more then you. I find the case extremly funny (I doubt he lies cause you guys are good friends and I have never heard him saying anything bad about you) cause then I was baiting you to tell the truth (so he would see my point). I was saying I had played PM less then I have and you/Fuzzy way more then you have (maybe not cause what Fuzzy told you in Denmark it seems like he has been playing A LOT). After you heard this you said it wasn't true and took the numbers to something that maight be true but that you still had played "much more then me". Slynus could barely wait with laughing cause he also find the lie extremly funny cause you told him the opposite. So I guess johning is not enough when it comes to you. You even have to lie to a close friend to make yourself look better. When johning isn't working you start lie instead. What is the next step?

swag: You I agree with you. Leffen is doing overall better. Beeing blind by numbers is bad. You have to take tons of stuff to consider. Like Leffen said the fact he is doing way better at most stages (Not PS/YS) is for sure something that proves he doing better every time we are playing.

 

[JPOBS]

For what it's worth, I think Leffen outplayed armada for the majority of the set, but lost anyway.

 

[$wag]

For what it's worth, I think Leffen outplayed armada for the majority of the set, but lost anyway.

Ha, bold.

 

[PK Webb]

Well Im not the only one that thinks you are very deffensive when it comes to beeing deffensive in arguments when it comes to you.

http://forum.smashbros.se.preview.c...id=905f0a29e1903b5cb0bef485734f583f&start=330

The thing O write about " Om det är något jag stör mig på är istället detta igelkottsförsvar du har så fort någon ens andas ditt namn på minsta lilla negativa sätt eller att allt skulle handla om dig"
(for the people that can't understand it basically means that he is tired of Leffens hedgehog deffensive when someone in any way say something bad about Leffen. Can be stuff he can work with as a person exc).

Yeah ofc I did mention things that can/should be considered a john (and when it comes to you close to the entire Swedish smash community knows it). The one with Over is impossible for me to prove cause you said it in a discussion with Ice/Me right after LF. Im not carring around with stuff to record evidence Im not that desperate. But Im not surprised you picked that one cause you knew I couldn't have evidence. Would been so fun if you actually could hear it from the streams from KFC but we are a little bit to far away from the microphone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fGnCHDqxcw
YT comment for example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1Tt35eD6qI
Even DURING this set you johned so much that Fuzzy didn't even wanted to team with you anymore (he said he wanted to be back cause he thinks you has changed and yeah this was your worse one so better but still way to bad). I can understand cause you showed (by far) the worse sportmanship I have ever seen. That in combination with how much you were johning made him tired of teaming with you. I have actually never even heard about a case like that before so congratz for your accomplishment. Mostly you john IRL though which you also know. You mostly of them time trying to make someone else looks like the bad guy. Grow up and take some ****ing responsibillity for your actions instead of lie like a baby. One jonh/lie I find extremly funny happend during KFC 2 actually.

I talked about PM with Slynus in Denmark and he said you complained a lot about loseing to me (first KFC). He also said that you told him I had played the game way more then you. I find the case extremly funny (I doubt he lies cause you guys are good friends and I have never heard him saying anything bad about you) cause then I was baiting you to tell the truth (so he would see my point). I was saying I had played PM less then I have and you/Fuzzy way more then you have (maybe not cause what Fuzzy told you in Denmark it seems like he has been playing A LOT). After you heard this you said it wasn't true and took the numbers to something that maight be true but that you still had played "much more then me". Slynus could barely wait with laughing cause he also find the lie extremly funny cause you told him the opposite. So I guess johning is not enough when it comes to you. You even have to lie to a close friend to make yourself look better. When johning isn't working you start lie instead. What is the next step?

swag: You I agree with you. Leffen is doing overall better. Beeing blind by numbers is bad. You have to take tons of stuff to consider. Like Leffen said the fact he is doing way better at most stages (Not PS/YS) is for sure something that proves he doing better every time we are playing.

Dam leffen. well i remember when i use to john to but lying is kinda low. i find it better to take a loss and say nothing about it except ask for advice and laugh/say i got *****