i was literally gonna post this topic on shield pressure good stuff
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
Sinji
Smash Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1rL9TuXYHRs#t=202s
Nair>shine>grab on heavy characters makes a big advantage for fox, especially near the edge.
Nair>shine>grab on heavy characters makes a big advantage for fox, especially near the edge.
stelzig
Smash Lord
What? I think it's the opposite.. It's (alot) easier to rotate counter-clockwise than clockwise. Which is why it is easier to moonwalk to the right.
wow stel, your brain must be ****ed up!!
okay,!
unnecessary new tech skill of the moment:
using the first (few?) frames of up air to force standing animation faster.
i.e. dash > short hop > fast fall...c^
first frame literally moves fox closer to the ground and, if timed correctly allows you to land sooner by a (few?) frame(s)
this is an auto cancel. the concept was taken from Samus's up air tricks
@shield pressure: Shields pressure is a concept, often mistaken for the act of attacking someone's shield...this is a misconception. the idea of pressure itself is important, and often neglected in search of an "efficient" or "effective" style.
the best form of shield pressure is grab. grabbing v. block puts way more pressure on than the most well executed aerial>shines. provided you're doing more than 4%....
okay,!
unnecessary new tech skill of the moment:
using the first (few?) frames of up air to force standing animation faster.
i.e. dash > short hop > fast fall...c^
first frame literally moves fox closer to the ground and, if timed correctly allows you to land sooner by a (few?) frame(s)
this is an auto cancel. the concept was taken from Samus's up air tricks
@shield pressure: Shields pressure is a concept, often mistaken for the act of attacking someone's shield...this is a misconception. the idea of pressure itself is important, and often neglected in search of an "efficient" or "effective" style.
the best form of shield pressure is grab. grabbing v. block puts way more pressure on than the most well executed aerial>shines. provided you're doing more than 4%....
CloneHat
Smash Champion
The way I see it, OOS options are just what you do to punish an attempted grab/escape from the possibility, and shield pressure is a way to keep them from performing certain OOS options. Neither strategy works consistently on its own. A grab is definitely the best way to stop a shielding opponent, but it's exactly what a somebody is looking for while shielding.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
The whole point of aerial-shines is to cover sidesteps and rolls while still retaining a window to react to those options or hold them in a bad position. Your most direct counter to shield is grab, however, and it's generally what you want to land versus like 7/8 of the most relevant characters.
There is a purpose to aerial-shining a shield. It's safer than going directly in with a grab if you're unsure of what the opponent is going to do. And aerial-shining can let you scout for habits or even modify them (hooray for conditioning) in a way that grab really doesn't let you. But ultimately your goal is generally to grab them so you can make them dead. Don't ever forget that.
There is a purpose to aerial-shining a shield. It's safer than going directly in with a grab if you're unsure of what the opponent is going to do. And aerial-shining can let you scout for habits or even modify them (hooray for conditioning) in a way that grab really doesn't let you. But ultimately your goal is generally to grab them so you can make them dead. Don't ever forget that.
Lovage
Smash Hero
well executed shield pressure is 100x safer than going for a slow *** grab imo
leffen
Smash Champion
grab is safe on all characters with bad spotdodges
shine and nair give way less reward but are a little safer
shine and nair give way less reward but are a little safer
CloneHat
Smash Champion
You assume people use spotdodges to counter grabs. The reason grabbing is unsafe is because you can jump out of shield and punish, probably the most useful and popular OOS strategy.
leffen
Smash Champion
Latenair->grab
shine grab
beats almost all jumps oos
and theres a lot of more complicated **** with reaction and stuff but I cba explaining anything
shine grab
beats almost all jumps oos
and theres a lot of more complicated **** with reaction and stuff but I cba explaining anything
Beat!
Smash Master
Attention, everyone.
Today I was able to combo fsmash --> grab on a CPU Ganon. My fondest hope is that this will become a powerful addition to the Fox metagame. Also, I am of the opinion that this combo should be referred to as "The Beat" from now on. This is very important to me.
That would be all.
Today I was able to combo fsmash --> grab on a CPU Ganon. My fondest hope is that this will become a powerful addition to the Fox metagame. Also, I am of the opinion that this combo should be referred to as "The Beat" from now on. This is very important to me.
That would be all.
Silent Wolf
...
fsmash -> move* is very old. also DI dependent and unreliable.
Beat!
Smash Master
I was not being very serious. =p
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
I legitimately combo'd fsmash to fsmash once.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
dsmash to usmash to fsmash (with falco)
unknown522
Some guy
I've seen Raynex combo 3x f-smashes on someone.
I've done the same with falco as well.
I've done the same with falco as well.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
My old roommate called that the 'chuck norris combo'
also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LKVECJpqFM#t=12
Sinji
Smash Master
And Iv'e seen 4x upsmash from PC Chris.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FU4YqhqSCng#t=34s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FU4YqhqSCng#t=34s
dawn001
Smash Ace
Claw is the only way to play if you want to be able to control your fox as u want.. I mean no hesitation at all/ no freeze. Now as for the fast grab? Ha! That's tricky but I Dawn has found a way. For those who are interested of knowing it ...just feedback on me.
*fox owns you*
*fox owns you*
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
You'd have to hit the middle of the dsmash to go up so the upsmash could hit, then hope they don't wiggle out before the fsmash... I mean YEA TROSSMEN COMBOS
Lovage
Smash Hero
i HAVE SEEN TH LIGHT
THANK YOU BASED DAWN
THANK YOU BASED DAWN
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
LOLLLLLL oscar just said i cant believe its not butter
Bing
Smash Master
Raynex once F-smashed me twice into 4 nairs. I was like... WTF.
Lovage
Smash Hero
Silent Wolf
...
CloneHat
Smash Champion
He's Fabio? I'm so lost.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
So fox mains, help an aspiring pocket fox out: what do you do at 6:13-6:40?
I can't think of many practical solutions a cornered Fox has for stopping that close range laser game (particularly 6:28) and apparently Jman couldn't either so Stric just abused that and won...Jman was able to finally get a nair at 7:13 of that video by full-hopping back to gain room for the dash and then FH nairing but I don't think thats a very consistent answer (they can just see you jump back and ****) and I think Stric might have mistimed/misspaced those lasers...
Blah.
(plz don't say "just powershield")
(or wavedash back grab the ledge and ledgedash.)
I can't think of many practical solutions a cornered Fox has for stopping that close range laser game (particularly 6:28) and apparently Jman couldn't either so Stric just abused that and won...Jman was able to finally get a nair at 7:13 of that video by full-hopping back to gain room for the dash and then FH nairing but I don't think thats a very consistent answer (they can just see you jump back and ****) and I think Stric might have mistimed/misspaced those lasers...
Blah.
(plz don't say "just powershield")
(or wavedash back grab the ledge and ledgedash.)
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
What sets an intermediate level fox/player, apart from an advanced one?
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
just curious, but why is "just powershield" not an acceptable answer to you?
consistency,spacing,decision making
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
1) Powershielding is hard to be consistent with, and I'd like to know other options especially in high pressure situations where I'd likely miss the timing.
2) He could just powershield it back (see: Zhu. Stric pops his shield in between lasers too)
Mahone
Smash Champion
powershield it back at him...
Bones0
Smash Legend
Jman wasn't trapped at the ledge. He was just camping for a gimp. You don't need to dash back when Falco is lasering, so the fact that you are at the ledge is largely irrelevant. Just treat it as if you were in the center of the stage. Platforms are the simplest solution; just don't get predictable because the Falco will just laser and anticipate you jumping onto the platform and punish with a shine-waveland.
This is kinda tricky but not actually too bad. Jman responded correctly at 6:20 ish by taking the platform. Stric then went in for an unsafe approach that missed completely left him above fox/vulnerable. Jman could have punished directly there but he opted to go back to center stage instead, which is a pretty good decision imo.
He got a grab a out of it a few seconds later. Over commited on his follow and wound up back in the same position on the other side of the stage at 6:29. At this point Stric did some really close lasers that Jman probably could have baired over.
In any case full jumping from that position is pretty safe. Alternatively he coulda grabbed the ledge and ledgedashed and just ran to center stage with invincibility (I know you said don't say that, but sometimes it really is the best option).
I don't really like trying to powershield from that position, since I'd rather not have to rely on something so delicate to get me out of dangerous postions; I usually reserve powershielding for offensive use. It can still be helpful though.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
I think he was going for that at first, but then he was legitimately trapped.
I mean...if I was at the center of the stage I would probably wavedash back dash nair. The wavedash back gives you the distance necessary to make the nair connect and set up your initial dash..
Can you expand on this? I know stadium is a specific example since its platforms are closer to the middle of the stage, but what exactly could Jman have done there? Whenever I play a half decent Falco they never let me get away with jumping out and around them in that situation...
And what about FD?
Sorry, you guys are going to have to go a little slow for me; my Fox is very elementary. I know getting cornered is one of Fox's biggest weaknesses, but at least in other matchups I feel like I can threaten with nair. Against Falco I just feel dead.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I've always found it really easy to not get cornered as Fox... He is so fast that you can almost always just run away if you don't like a situation, at least on PS, DL, and BF. As a Falco player, the biggest concern when lasering vs. Fox is that he will come at me with an attack from above. I can't really get too close because it's super easy for Fox to just camp full hops and drill/bair me. Cactuar was doing this vs. me at Apex, and it's really just a situation where Falco cannot approach safely unless he lands a laser. You can jump onto the side platform of any stage with a good amount of safety as long as Falco isn't close enough to jump up and shine you as you waveland. If he IS close enough to do that, then just full hop towards him. You'll either hit him or force him backwards (in which case feinting the attack and double jumping to the plat is great). In either case it gives you more room to work with by getting him away from the side platform. I think you mostly have to keep in mind that you aren't in any real danger. Even in the example you linked, Jman just took his time spacing his way off the ledge and there weren't any glaring instances where Stric could have easily punished.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
He could have taken the platform the whole time, and just gradually gotten back to the center. The first time he did this, he took exactly 5% (not much for being in an unfavourable situation). Falco will concede space if he can't defend himself from above.
Jman could have also pulled a Javi and fullhop naired over the lasers lol
Jman could have also pulled a Javi and fullhop naired over the lasers lol
Yeah, I'm in the workshop on Fox's movement vs laser game. Bones got to see the idea in its adolescence.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Or just shined them at that range, Javi does a lot of shine laser to shdl in situations like that.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
lol @ "don't say just powershield"