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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
2,665
Location
Atlanta
You guys can all disagree, just don't get sad when your bthrow gimp doesn't work and you lose the match.

I personally hate guessing in any game; it leads to variance. Sure sometimes it'll work out really well, but sometimes it won't work out at all. I'd rather go for high guaranteed damage that also has a chance of killing if I do it right.

@ "major weakness" : Falco has one of the best recoveries in the game. Major weakness my ***.

Niko, I agree with the idea of covering other options that can lead to damage if they recover while still covering other options. That said, the options you can cover by doing so are a lot weaker; marth and sheik don't suffer from that as much because their edgeguarding overall is better/covers more options. They can do a better job of applying the argument you suggested; I agree with the idea, but I think fox clearly does it worse.

On another note, nobody really presented a good argument against what I said. My argument entails lowering variance so that you don't lose to someone worse than you. That's why people go for gimps when they're behind; it's a lot easier and often more effective to just go for the quick way to tie things up because otherwise you'd have to be consistently outplaying them to make a comeback. *gasp* consistently outplaying them? Why do that when can just guess and hope.

@SW; I hope you enjoyed my inability to do basic things like l-cancel and upsmash with fox, because I'm sure lovage did.
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
you're right that the variance is higher, but i think the EV probably is as well. it's perfectly reasonable in a skill-based game to accept a lower EV with lower variance, but that doesn't make choosing the other option a bad idea.

also, you can choose to lower the variance a lot by not going for crazy risky gimps, just throw them off stage and then guess in such a way that you probably wont hit them but you'll still have them with their back to the ledge.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
Falco does hae a pretty damn good recovery. Especially at gimp percents. In fact, I say at low-mid percents where you can't just edgehog him, he DOES have the best recoery in the game.

Mixups galore, a recovery that meteor spikes if you're not careful, and a down air that ends souls.
Dat s**t cray.

I'm with DF, upthrow and combo unless you need to make a comeback.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Falco's recovery is either really good or really bad depending on the situation. Solid mixups with a speedy side-B are great, but no DJ, too far out, or being below the stage are all glaring weak points.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Krush, give us a fashion breakdown on the stages, please. I'm thinking:
FoD > YS > FD > BF > DL

Not sure where non-neutrals would fit into the mix.
 

crush

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
3,701
Location
Fashion Sense Back Room
Depends what look you're going for but I dont use a lot of lasers so I have to make up for it by picking red falco on FD/BF/FoD. Blue falco is moost fashionable by far everywhere else tho.

For fox pink boots is always the most fashionable, but orange fox gives you wings.

:phone:
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
all for you man. btw i normally hate bidoof, but i like your avatar because youre awesome <3333

edit: damn, me and toph gettin HYPE for toronto
 

EWC

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
651
Location
norcal
I personally hate guessing in any game; it leads to variance. Sure sometimes it'll work out really well, but sometimes it won't work out at all. I'd rather go for high guaranteed damage that also has a chance of killing if I do it right.
Personal preference. I tend to agree with this sentiment a lot of the time, but there are times when it is a good idea to opt for higher variance; You can get better expected results that way.

@ "major weakness" : Falco has one of the best recoveries in the game. Major weakness my ***.
Falco is the best character in the game (second best?? whatever). He is good at most things. His recovery is not bad compared to other characters, but it is bad compared to everything else he has. So it's still makes sense to call it a weakness, though perhaps "major" is too strong a modifier.

Niko, I agree with the idea of covering other options that can lead to damage if they recover while still covering other options. That said, the options you can cover by doing so are a lot weaker; marth and sheik don't suffer from that as much because their edgeguarding overall is better/covers more options. They can do a better job of applying the argument you suggested; I agree with the idea, but I think fox clearly does it worse.

This is true, but that doesn't mean that fox shouldn't ever try it at all.

On another note, nobody really presented a good argument against what I said. My argument entails lowering variance so that you don't lose to someone worse than you. That's why people go for gimps when they're behind; it's a lot easier and often more effective to just go for the quick way to tie things up because otherwise you'd have to be consistently outplaying them to make a comeback. *gasp* consistently outplaying them? Why do that when can just guess and hope.

There's not really much point talking about what you should do when you're better than your opponent and can consistently out play them. Where the game gets interesting, and where the topic at hand really comes into play, is when you are not better than them. Gimps turn the tides of close games. And if you don't ever plan on trying to win a game that you are expected to lose, well that's just sad.
 

Veetaak

Smash Lord
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
1,120
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
Depends what look you're going for but I dont use a lot of lasers so I have to make up for it by picking red falco on FD/BF/FoD. Blue falco is moost fashionable by far everywhere else tho.

For fox pink boots is always the most fashionable, but orange fox gives you wings.

:phone:
You are the way to light. Guide us through <3
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
"I learned the gentlemen's rule from PKM when I was a new player (he told me that all good players know of that rule. But I guess it died out at some point). It has always stuck with me since though.

But yeah, arguing the warrior's honor thing was pretty funny. Back at pound 3.

I am aware that SDing is your own fault. Pretty much the same as messing up execution and getting killed for it (story of my life). Like if he SD'd mid-way through the match then I wouldn't reset it obviously.

Still, if you guys are that opposed to what I did, then I won't do it anymore -_-"

i've SDed first stock in 10 sec 3 times in tournament..twice was because i didn't know which marth i was..

but no one gave me a free stock...so i wouldn't recommend giving it to them since they won't do the same for you probably.

also, I always remind myself of all the friendlies i've played with mahone where i accidentally don't get an aerial out at the right time because my fingers slip...so then he gets a free inside upair that shouldn't be possible and instantly kills me off of it...if i miss an aerial, miss a pivot grab, miss a 1.5 x marth height falling dair fastfall timing...i will die off of it..and people will judge my relative skill to this player based on that mistake...so why should i forgive their trivial mistake.

also, in my experience, most SDs come from fox players that are spamming tech skill so fast that they can't react properly to what they are doing. if you're going to play at a speed above human reaction time based on your understanding of the opponent's options and how to pressure...that's fine, but not being able to react to things properly and suiciding is also part of the game.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Sometime in 2011 and now, one simple mistake can lead you to death.. that's how ridiculous the players are. That's also another reason why Idc about the player SDing.
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
i think east canada is one of the coolest regions i never get to see. theres a bunch of tourneys comin up so im gonna try and cover my ticket with those.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
IMPULSE is the Canada day weekend. I know Tin Man and a few others are trying to put together a tour of Toronto for a few days leading up to it, so if you guys want to do sight-seeing and/or get more matches in then I can probably supply space. I am also willing to cook for you guys a few nights so you guys don't have to pay so much for food 'cuz constantly ordering in & fast food is mad expensive (although I can't promise Mom-level quality lolz). There's also a grocery store around here if you guys cook yourselves.

:)
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
yea since its during the summer id love to come early and stuff. me and toph will help you cook :3

yo, picture my avatar singing all my posts k
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,550
IMPULSE is the Canada day weekend. I know Tin Man and a few others are trying to put together a tour of Toronto for a few days leading up to it, so if you guys want to do sight-seeing and/or get more matches in then I can probably supply space. I am also willing to cook for you guys a few nights so you guys don't have to pay so much for food 'cuz constantly ordering in & fast food is mad expensive (although I can't promise Mom-level quality lolz). There's also a grocery store around here if you guys cook yourselves.

:)
cook for me :smirk:
 

Aber

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Messages
276
What button input do ppl use for SH bair? I've been trying to use A instead of c stick lately because it seems it would come out mucchhhhhh faster but its hard to get the timing for FF and L cancel cuz I'm used to using c stick. Is using A optimal? Thoughts?
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
Location
San Jose
I only use A when I really need to do the bair asap. Which isn't THAT often. Has its uses though. Most of the time I use the c-stick.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
I use both interchangeably depending on how I'm DIing/falling, or if I'm by the ledge I use the c-stick to avoid accidental wall jumps, but I always use A for quick bairs.
 

EWC

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
651
Location
norcal
You should start using z instead of a in the situations when you use a; It's so much less tiring to do rising aerials that way.
 

Thanos828

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2011
Messages
290
Location
Rochester NY
You can either claw with your index finger or use the right side of your right palm to move the c stick (the space under your thumb); I do the latter.

I thought using the Cstick was universally better because of the fact that you could influence your direction during the aerial.
 
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