Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[trahhSTEEZY]

Hey Unknown, I wanna know why you let Javi off the hook with SDing Game 3 of your set and letting him reset the match.

Why do it?

youtube people keep saying he did it out of courtesy because javi is a good player

i don't really get the concept, him SD'ng is 100% on him and his consistency, giving second chances to players who **** is silly, if anything give a courtesy reset to the scrubs who SD and want a fair fight against you.

 

[Iron Dragon]

youtube people keep saying he did it out of courtesy because javi is a good player

i don't really get the concept, him SD'ng is 100% on him and his consistency, giving second chances to players who **** is silly, if anything give a courtesy reset to the scrubs who SD and want a fair fight against you.

Maybe his secret opinion was that Javi IS a scrub who SDs and he wasn't afraid to do the match again without the SD :3

Either way good set Unknown, you coulda won that.

 

[unknown522]

Hey Unknown, I wanna know why you let Javi off the hook with SDing Game 3 of your set and letting him reset the match.

Why do it?

gentlemen's rule.

I do it vs everyone if the SD within the first 10 seconds.

Also I already knew he was a good player. I played him the night before.

 

[Iron Dragon]

gentlemen's rule.

I do it vs everyone if the SD within the first 10 seconds.

Also I already knew he was a good player. I played him the night before.

*shrug*

Some would argue there are no gentlemen rules and to play to win. To each his own I suppose.

 

[Sinji]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43KqPM7nlMY

even though i won this set i felt as if it could had been cleaner can any1 help me out

i have a vid on the previous page asking for a critque on a match i had at apex vs a ic's plz look at that

Sorry for posting late. I have been busy lately.

0:15- You had an opportunity to shine Nana off of the stage. Yoshis Story is good for fox in general but against ICs, you have a high chance of knocking Nana off of the stage with a shine. Always keep the thought of shining Nana off of the stage after a shine.

0:24- You was in a good position to shine Nana when she was off of the stage. Also Popo was in a bad situation to save her. Whenever you shine ICs and they are separated, Popo is at a bad position to save Nana. That is your chance to go after Nana.

0:51- Never approach from the side platform when ICs are in the middle of the stage. That is their bait for a grab attempt.

3:48- Usmash oos near to the edge because ICs mains tends to spam dsmash near the edge. lol.

4:24- Missed the L-cancel. L-canceling is a bit tricky against IC's. You got grabbed by a frame. Frames are very important against ICs because there are two of them and fox can get punished fairly easy.

4:42- should have shine grab popo. Shine grab is very important especially near the edge. the shield stun will cover the frame leaving you with a easy grab.

7:07- should have shined nana off.

You did good though. A couple things to work on though.

1. Platform Camping: You need to use the top platform more to bait ICs to full hop uair so you can get below them.

2. Usage of Utlits: You need to use utilt more so you can follow up with an upair. Their was a lot of times when they was behind you and tried to jab you.

 

[JPOBS]

Winning isn't the only thing that matters sometimes.
Sometimes, actually defeating your opponent counts too.

 

[Druggedfox]

Why defeat your opponent when they defeat themselves for you?

Not that I disagree in particular with unknown's rule, but the concept of needing to defeat your opponent is silly when 90% of wins in this game are given up for free.

Someone SDing in this game isn't all that different from when a fox high aerials on my shield and I'm marth on FD; they're giving me a free stock, I just actually have to do something in the latter case. For all intents and purposes they're equivalent.

That said, I totally don't think winning is the only part that matters, you're right. It just depends on the person's priorities at the time.

 

[Divinokage]

Winning isn't the only thing that matters sometimes.
Sometimes, actually defeating your opponent counts too.

But then ended up getting defeated instead? That's what people see, and not what BS rule you want to put upon yourself.

It's like if I would destroy my own buildings in Starcraft or sacrifice units to make it even on purpose.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

But then ended up getting defeated instead? That's what people see, and not what BS rule you want to put upon yourself.

It's like if I would destroy my own buildings in Starcraft or sacrifice units to make it even on purpose.

Lol you guys are funny. The point is UK wanted to win a fair fight, he clearly was not that desperate to win.

"That's what people see" : obviously it isn't about other people(besides javi) to unknown. aren't you the one always preaching about winning for yourself?

why would you destroy your own buildings though? What would be equivalent to an SD in starcraft? if they "SD'd" per se in starcraft then yeah thats understandable.

Someone SDing in this game isn't all that different from when a fox high aerials on my shield and I'm marth on FD; they're giving me a free stock, I just actually have to do something in the latter case. For all intents and purposes they're equivalent.

it's alot different..for one, it is the foxes choice to high aerial on your shield. Regardless of 'high' aerial, he is attacking your shield in general and putting himself at risk. If a fox is lasering and accidentally Side-B's, that is nowhere near intentional and drastically affects the game without the opponent having to do anything. Marth having to do a full combo/gimp to kill fox is far from the opponent SD'ng..kinda silly concept imo.

 

[Divinokage]

Winning for myself? I don't care what the opponent does, if he kills himself, I'll just justify it because my aura of fear was too strong for him to take. Do you think other players go easy on you? Hell no, there can be no mercy!!!

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Yes winning for yourself, over winning for "what people see" as you stated.

lol maybe you're right in a ruthless melee world where winning is freakin' everything. but luckily there are people that have higher standards than "OMG PEOPLE R GONNA SEE IPLACED WELL!!!" and instead go with "i wanna beat javi with no unfortunate rare mistakes like that."

 

[omgwtfToph]

guys

it was pools

 

[Divinokage]

Yes winning for yourself, over winning for "what people see" as you stated.

lol maybe you're right in a ruthless melee world where winning is freakin' everything. but luckily there are people that have higher standards than "OMG PEOPLE R GONNA SEE IPLACED WELL!!!" and instead go with "i wanna beat javi with no unfortunate rare mistakes like that."

Well yes.. that's what people see when you are in the spotlight even in a real fight. If you win then you get recognized, if you lose NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCE then well too bad for you, you are left in the darkness.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

exactly, my point is that getting attention is not always people's goal. not everyone..needs it.

 

[ShroudedOne]

guys

it was pools

Pretty much this. I don't think it matters what Unknown did. It was his decision, his game, his freedom.

 

[Druggedfox]

You can easily accidentally aerial higher than you meant to. Totally not intentional --> you die/

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i took that into consideration. you are still approaching knowing that your approach may not be perfect. hell, foxes always have to take that into account. knowing you MAY be at risk approaching the wrong way is far different from just playing the game and dying out of no where. atleast when you fail at approaching, it is still on your opponent to capitalize. there is no capitalizing on a stock that was SD'd.

 

[JPOBS]

Why defeat your opponent when they defeat themselves for you?

Not that I disagree in particular with unknown's rule, but the concept of needing to defeat your opponent is silly when 90% of wins in this game are given up for free.

Someone SDing in this game isn't all that different from when a fox high aerials on my shield and I'm marth on FD; they're giving me a free stock, I just actually have to do something in the latter case. For all intents and purposes they're equivalent.

That said, I totally don't think winning is the only part that matters, you're right. It just depends on the person's priorities at the time.

You don't really gain anything by having an opponent defeat themself. You don't get a chance to test the skill you've been honing for months, nor do you learn anything about the player/matchup/game. You progress slightly further in bracket but in 99.9% of cases, you aren't a top level player and won't win the tournament anyway. On the other hand, there is something to gain from outright beating (or losing to) your opponent. You gain the knowledge that you are in fact better or worse than that person and you got the chance to test ability to its full extent.

That's why some people play a gentlemen's rule sometimes. Winning isn't the only worth striving for in competition.

Edit: I find it funny that kage, the same person always running tape about testing his abilit yon the field of battle and measuring his strength against his opponents, is completely OK with taking cheesy victories. Doesn't seem to have much "spirit" to me. "I better not give them a second chance, god forbid I lose and everyone sees it in the results thread" Seems like the cowards way out.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

In my opinion, SDing is bad and shouldn't be done. If you do it, it's your fault, and you need to get better.

If my opponent SDs and I choose to SD as well, he's not getting punished for it.

If, on the other hand, my opponents SDs and I don't do anything, then he's a stock behind, which means he's forced to have to play better on in order to win. This will help my opponent improve, and the better my opponents are the more I'll be able to improve. By being punished for SDing, my opponent has to learn to become better so he won't do that anymore.

In other words, if you SD out of some "Gentleman's Rule", you aren't helping your opponent get better. In my opinion, it's more Gentlemanly to not SD than it is to SD.

 

[Niko45]

I'd rather win by luck than win by charity any day.

I'd also rather win than lose, period. If you're somebody with a shot at the money, get that money!

 

[Divinokage]

Edit: I find it funny that kage, the same person always running tape about testing his abilit yon the field of battle and measuring his strength against his opponents, is completely OK with taking cheesy victories. Doesn't seem to have much "spirit" to me. "I better not give them a second chance, god forbid I lose and everyone sees it in the results thread" Seems like the cowards way out.

You want to know why that bothered me to begin with? It's because it was Ryan and David themselves that told ME years ago when they were lower level than me that I should CG and **** honor in battle. And yet now Ryan does the opposite of what he told me? WTF!?

Lol dude I don't care what happens in a tournament set, I'll crush them.. like I said NO opponents will give a 2nd chance to me if I SD. You should look at all sides not just what I think. The spirit you speak is simply victory in battle, you really think in a real sword fight that your enemy will show you mercy? Hell no, he'll cut you down even if you slip. The way I see testing your ability is simply if your training was good enough to destroy all opponents in your way. I am not a "good" warrior in battle.

 

[Druggedfox]

When you laser you're aware of the risk that you might accidentally side-b. It really isn't different other than, perhaps at worst, semantically. By that logic anytime you make any move, you're at risk for that sort of mistake. What's the solution? Don't do moves?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i honestly don't get how youre arguing that suiciding off the level is practically equivalent to mis-spacing/timing an aerial approach, followed by you getting combod/gimped to death, lol.

 

[Druggedfox]

You're giving your opponent a free kill

What's the difference?

Step 1: You **** up.
Step 2: You die.

The only difference is that in the scenario where you mistime an aerial the opponent actually has to mindlessly press a few buttons. Conceptually, they're similar; when my opponent does stupid aerials I don't feel like I outplayed them anymore than when they kill themselves. They beat themselves.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

im sure you realize how often people make mistakes in this game, techskill is very fragile, practically anyone but top level is inconsistent/not doing something right..every single time you mis-space/overshoot an aerial with fox, are you "mindlessly" getting combo'd to death every single time? i really don't think you are.

i absolutely guarantee anyone you play is making mistakes like that all the time, how else do you beat your opponent? they have to mess up for you to capitalize.

regardless, mindlessly press a few buttons? really..? you say that like you see marths get 0-deaths from mistakes like that on the regular. i sure as hell don't..

i'm sure the marth boards would be upset with that view


smashboards makes work much faster :3

 

[Bing]

gentlemen's rule.

I do it vs everyone if the SD within the first 10 seconds.

Also I already knew he was a good player. I played him the night before.

I totally agree with this rule. Not too mention its not as much fun to win because the person messed up, and Just saying, Unknown vs. Javi = a fantastic set. Not to mention that by personally upholding a rule such as this, I(we) would like to hope that others would do it when I **** up. Atleast that early.

 

[Sinji]

Posting my experience playing Javi on Day 2 at Apex. I felt a bit salty after placing bad in r1 pools. When I started to play Javi on Day 2 I had plenty of fun. I felt like I was playing at my peak level (if not) really good. I found out that having fun generates my top play. Finding your best emotion, whether it be Anger, calm, fun e.t.c. is some what hard to find especially for fox mains.

All of the fox mains, what is you best emotion to play at peak level?

 

[PK Webb]

definitely when im joking around i play my best

 

[JPOBS]

You want to know why that bothered me to begin with? It's because it was Ryan and David themselves that told ME years ago when they were lower level than me that I should CG and **** honor in battle. And yet now Ryan does the opposite of what he told me? WTF!?

Lol dude I don't care what happens in a tournament set, I'll crush them.. like I said NO opponents will give a 2nd chance to me if I SD. You should look at all sides not just what I think. The spirit you speak is simply victory in battle, you really think in a real sword fight that your enemy will show you mercy? Hell no, he'll cut you down even if you slip. The way I see testing your ability is simply if your training was good enough to destroy all opponents in your way. I am not a "good" warrior in battle.

They wanted you to chaingrab and stuff because they wanted to test themselves against you at the best of your ability. They to see exactly where they stack up against you when you're playing your best. So obviously they don't want you to hold back.

Thats entirely different from if you killed yourself at 0% and I don't see whats so "WTF" about that.

You're giving your opponent a free kill

What's the difference?

Step 1: You **** up.
Step 2: You die.

The only difference is that in the scenario where you mistime an aerial the opponent actually has to mindlessly press a few buttons. Conceptually, they're similar; when my opponent does stupid aerials I don't feel like I outplayed them anymore than when they kill themselves. They beat themselves.

That's a pretty big ****ing difference though. You can boil it down to "mindlessly pressing buttons" (lol, now we pretend marths 0-death on every grab? lol k) but the fact remains that your still have to execute a skill of your own to benefit.

Whereas when they SD at 0 within 5 seconds, you have executed absolutely 0 of your own skill.
i agree with trahh, they aren't the same thing at all.

Like I was saying earlier, some people want to test their ability in competition and not just take free wins, especially when it doesn't make a difference in the grand scheme of the tournament. It's fine if you disagree and think winning > everything. That's a valid opinion as well.

 

[FoxLisk]

drugged fox is, as usual, completely right about everything. however you guys missed the real point we uncovered in this discussion:

In my opinion, SDing is bad.

words to live by.

 

[Mahone]

Smashers used to believe in things. Honor. Respect. Look at you! What do you believe in, huh? WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE IN?

 

[JPOBS]

i don't think anyone is arguing that SD'ing is OK.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Good. I'm glad we can all agree that SDing is bad.

 

[unknown522]

You want to know why that bothered me to begin with? It's because it was Ryan and David themselves that told ME years ago when they were lower level than me that I should CG and **** honor in battle. And yet now Ryan does the opposite of what he told me? WTF!?

Lol dude I don't care what happens in a tournament set, I'll crush them.. like I said NO opponents will give a 2nd chance to me if I SD. You should look at all sides not just what I think. The spirit you speak is simply victory in battle, you really think in a real sword fight that your enemy will show you mercy? Hell no, he'll cut you down even if you slip. The way I see testing your ability is simply if your training was good enough to destroy all opponents in your way. I am not a "good" warrior in battle.

I learned the gentlemen's rule from PKM when I was a new player (he told me that all good players know of that rule. But I guess it died out at some point). It has always stuck with me since though.

But yeah, arguing the warrior's honor thing was pretty funny. Back at pound 3.

I am aware that SDing is your own fault. Pretty much the same as messing up execution and getting killed for it (story of my life). Like if he SD'd mid-way through the match then I wouldn't reset it obviously.

Still, if you guys are that opposed to what I did, then I won't do it anymore -_-

 

[Bing]

Ryan I think you should continue to do it because its the right thing to do...

 

[KirbyKaze]

idgaf about what people do.

 

[genkaku]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQg-Vt9v5x0#t=6m9s

 

[Deleted member]

You want to know why that bothered me to begin with? It's because it was Ryan and David themselves that told ME years ago when they were lower level than me that I should CG and **** honor in battle. And yet now Ryan does the opposite of what he told me? WTF!?

Lol dude I don't care what happens in a tournament set, I'll crush them.. like I said NO opponents will give a 2nd chance to me if I SD. You should look at all sides not just what I think. The spirit you speak is simply victory in battle, you really think in a real sword fight that your enemy will show you mercy? Hell no, he'll cut you down even if you slip. The way I see testing your ability is simply if your training was good enough to destroy all opponents in your way. I am not a "good" warrior in battle.

not true in all cases, if someone jumps off beginning of the match instant reset on my part

I'd rather win through my own means, not cuz opponent decides to jump off for no reason/ pure accident that is not caused by me

of course, no one is ENTITLED to be nice to their opponent regardless of what happens, i'd just rather have a win where I beat them through pwning them. I sincerely would not mind if I SD'ed at the start of the match and opponent doesn't do anything

post- beginning match SD's though is a more grey line and depends if opponent im facing is a homey who would also courtesy suicide, i'd say vs most homeys in a local very few would do this, only DEHF comes to mind

friendlies are different too, it honestly doesnt matter what u do because its a ****ing friendly unless some chode is playing who takes every friendly seriously to the max

 

[KirbyKaze]

If I respect the opponent as a player and human being and they suicide within 5 seconds or so, then I would reset because I am a huge scrub and actually care about winning my way (and have an ounce of 'fair play' inside me). If I don't (on either grounds) then I wouldn't.

 

[Merkuri]

I learned the gentlemen's rule from PKM when I was a new player (he told me that all good players know of that rule. But I guess it died out at some point). It has always stuck with me since though.

But yeah, arguing the warrior's honor thing was pretty funny. Back at pound 3.

I am aware that SDing is your own fault. Pretty much the same as messing up execution and getting killed for it (story of my life). Like if he SD'd mid-way through the match then I wouldn't reset it obviously.

Still, if you guys are that opposed to what I did, then I won't do it anymore -_-

**** Kage. If you want to be courteous then be courteous.