Silent Wolf
...
lol nice tech drop
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
Thanos828
Smash Journeyman
Techskill practice is fun but doing it in actual matches is a whole different story lol
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
why would you ever be doing doubleshine grab OOS "too often" >_>
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
THank you so much CHillin, highly appreciated. Im glad I wowed ya lol. I actually have another video that I may upload. So I might get you to check that out. I think I play vs Falco. That MU is kinda fun.
Thanos828
Smash Journeyman
It's only in techskill practice, I don't think I've ever done it in an actual match
Nujabes
Smash Apprentice
Fox mains, when you play a ganon, what move of his is the scariest?
And what can/should ganon do to get away from fox's insane speed and pressure
And what can/should ganon do to get away from fox's insane speed and pressure
All his aerials and dsmash and for him to back u up he has jab and retreating aerials. As a approach watch 4 waveland f tiltFox mains, when you play a ganon, what move of his is the scariest?
And what can/should ganon do to get away from fox's insane speed and pressure
OverDose
Smash Rookie
Hey. Im a new fox player, recently switched from falco (He's just not fun anymore). On the topic of ganon, what sort of defense should I use to get away from him simply walling me in on the edge with SHUFFLed fair/jab. Ive tried waveland onto the platform and get over him, but I just get scooped. And trying to combat him with SHFFLed nair or dashcancel shine usually gets me faired, leading to edgeguard=>death even at zero.
tl;dr ganon walls me in, wat do?
tl;dr ganon walls me in, wat do?
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Are you getting pushed into the corner because you're committing yourself to laser camping? If so, don't do that. Make it a point to stay close to center stage.
But to answer your question, you either attack out (SH/FJ aerial) when the time is right (you can SHFFL after Ganon throws a nair or tilt, you can FJ nair to catch Ganon before his fair comes out), you can waveland and go above him like you said, or you can roll. All of these are good options as long as Ganon doesn't predict what you're gonna do and as long as you time it right (you don't short hop into a fair for example). Fair is big but slow. You just have to focus on your timing and mixing it up more.
But to answer your question, you either attack out (SH/FJ aerial) when the time is right (you can SHFFL after Ganon throws a nair or tilt, you can FJ nair to catch Ganon before his fair comes out), you can waveland and go above him like you said, or you can roll. All of these are good options as long as Ganon doesn't predict what you're gonna do and as long as you time it right (you don't short hop into a fair for example). Fair is big but slow. You just have to focus on your timing and mixing it up more.
Sinji
Smash Master
Been a while since I post but here it goes.So no takers on helpin me in my ic mu lol ok
Platform camp IC.
Shine is foxes bread and butter in the match up. Approach more with shine. shine will either seperate IC or will slide them near to the edge and since one of the ICs can hold on to the edge, you have an easy shine gimp on one of them off of the stage. I have been working on dtilt>weak bair at mid percents to seperate ICs. I did a couple on Woobles at Apex and it seemed legit but I wont conclude myself. Dair is also a good approach. Dair is important because it has a potentail shield poke and can stop any set up from them. Nair passed them> utilt. It can lead up to an uair.
I also have been working on Nair>double shine (where the first shine is grounded and the second shine used in the first jump)> fast falling uair (where the up air is the second jump). If the shield grab they can get hit by this. Its a bit hard but it takes a lot of practice. hope i helped.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
if he just does fair -> jab you just wait for the jab and then run in and grab him or whatever. or you can run up shield wait for the fair and the jab and then nair/dair oos. or wait for him to jump and roll behind him. or wait for him to land and roll behind him. or full hop and second jump onto the top platform (unless you're on FD). or... you get the point.
jab. it requires some work to predict and deal with because otherwise he'll knock you out of approaches. the rest of his moveset is pretty easy to deal with because you can just not deal with it by getting out of the way until it's over. uair is ****ing brutal if you stay on platforms at all because he can just wreck you coming down, so i was tempted to say that, but it's usually fairly easy to avoid getting on platforms.Fox mains, when you play a ganon, what move of his is the scariest?
And what can/should ganon do to get away from fox's insane speed and pressure
ganon can't get away from fox. he doesnt ever want to get away from fox. if he's away from fox fox can laser or camp or do anything he wants. ganon wants to get in on fox.
i have a vid on the previous page asking for a critque on a match i had at apex vs a ic's plz look at that
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
disagree fundamentally. Ganon wants space to do what he wants vs Fox. He wants to be in that golden zone where he can use his big hitboxes to put pressure on Fox and eventually hit Fox. If Fox makes it a goal to run away, Ganon can use his uair to give Fox trouble from below and eventually "wall" Fox like OverDose was complaining about.
how NOT to play Fox vs Ganon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AltMcPeuI6U
Fortress | Sveet
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KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I'm not a real Fox player but I saw you guys discussing ICs so I wanted to throw in my 2 cents. This isn't a complete strategy or anything, but I find low nair a really, really good tool to initiate shield pressure. Fast falling before you do the nair kind of negates the awkwardness of their dual shield, hitlag shenaniganry, etc. because it makes the l-cancel timing really generic and easy against the various nonsense they might do to screw with your l-cancel (Chu's shield thing, etc).
I generally think that traditional defenses like crouch-punishing kind of get nerfed for ICs because of their crappy traction so I've never really seen why dair is so amazing after like 30% just because of how much your nair and stuff push them away (unless you're comboing drillshine --> dash attack or something gimmicky like that) but I'm not an expert in the MU by any means so if someone wants to field that one, I'd be more than happy to be educated.
Another kind of cute trick that I don't see often is waiting under them and up tilting after you've launched them during any kind of combo. I think it's often better than chasing directly just because it outprioritizes most of what they can come down with. And then furthers the combo. It also can be used to split them if one of them is on the ground and the other is airborne (alternative knockbacks). I'm not sure how safe it is on shield, but it seems decently so.
Regarding Ganon vs Fox, I think Kels vs. Linguini is an interesting set because I don't actually disagree with how Kels went about repositioning himself against Linguini and I think the lasers were fine given how defensive Linguini was responding to him.
What killed Kels was that he didn't seem to really understand how much lag there is on Ganon's moves and that, in spite of its autocancel, he can't rush in after shooting Ganon at mid-range (it's basically like empty SHing, except Ganon knows you can't waveland forward, double jump, etc. because the laser occupies that time until you touch the floor and prevents alternative actions) and he backed off when he could have established a good position (or was in control). I would also say he didn't seem to understand how to punish Ganon as hard as he could; he missed a lot of really good combo opportunities and edgeguards.
I generally think that traditional defenses like crouch-punishing kind of get nerfed for ICs because of their crappy traction so I've never really seen why dair is so amazing after like 30% just because of how much your nair and stuff push them away (unless you're comboing drillshine --> dash attack or something gimmicky like that) but I'm not an expert in the MU by any means so if someone wants to field that one, I'd be more than happy to be educated.
Another kind of cute trick that I don't see often is waiting under them and up tilting after you've launched them during any kind of combo. I think it's often better than chasing directly just because it outprioritizes most of what they can come down with. And then furthers the combo. It also can be used to split them if one of them is on the ground and the other is airborne (alternative knockbacks). I'm not sure how safe it is on shield, but it seems decently so.
Regarding Ganon vs Fox, I think Kels vs. Linguini is an interesting set because I don't actually disagree with how Kels went about repositioning himself against Linguini and I think the lasers were fine given how defensive Linguini was responding to him.
What killed Kels was that he didn't seem to really understand how much lag there is on Ganon's moves and that, in spite of its autocancel, he can't rush in after shooting Ganon at mid-range (it's basically like empty SHing, except Ganon knows you can't waveland forward, double jump, etc. because the laser occupies that time until you touch the floor and prevents alternative actions) and he backed off when he could have established a good position (or was in control). I would also say he didn't seem to understand how to punish Ganon as hard as he could; he missed a lot of really good combo opportunities and edgeguards.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
i mean... i thought it was clear enough from the first half of my post that i don't advocate running away or being above him and getting uair'ed. i didnt say that fox wanted to run away, i said ganon wants to get in. if fox is standing outside ganon's fair range (or, say, WL forward -> jab range), then ganon is unhappy because it gives fox freedom. ganon wants to be a little bit closer than that.
if the unclear part was ganon wanting to 'get in on' fox, i just mean around that range where his moves have a reasonable chance of hitting fox, not the way you mean it about, say, falco vs marth where a lot of the time falco wants to be literally on top of marth because he can exert pressure there. ganon doesnt want to be there either. but he certainly doesn't want to 'get away' from fox.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Divinokage
Smash Legend
If I actually knew how to edgeguard back then.. =(
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
I thought no matter what DI fox always falls from shine....At Apex Lovage shines Javi....Javi doesen't fall....Is that smash Di...or what?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Crouch cancel.
Lovage
Smash Hero
good discussion broz
@kk's post on ic's:
fastfalling before your nair (aka LATE NAIR) is essential for any fox trying to hit ic's shield. hitting ic's shield is a tough task in itself cuz there's a lot of ways you can **** up and a lot of things they can do out of shield to kill you. i play aggressive vs. ic's but super safe/platform camping strategy can work well too. i wouldn't recommend it vs. good ic's because they (fly/wobbles) are all really good at dismantling patterns in platform camping and will start uair'ing you out of ur jumps and fsmashing you on landing lag.
extremely well done platform camping, performed by a good fox who is consistently good at adapting to the ic's and changing up his patterns (the most important factor,) will **** even the best ic's player. but this strategy is really hard to keep up and it's not really my style so i prefer to stay in their face as much as possible, but still knowing when to not attack because they're gonna dash attack/wd dsmash etc.
here's a recent set of me vs fly that has some of the **** i'm talking about
http://youtu.be/7eQWOg1qGbc
@kk's post on ic's:
fastfalling before your nair (aka LATE NAIR) is essential for any fox trying to hit ic's shield. hitting ic's shield is a tough task in itself cuz there's a lot of ways you can **** up and a lot of things they can do out of shield to kill you. i play aggressive vs. ic's but super safe/platform camping strategy can work well too. i wouldn't recommend it vs. good ic's because they (fly/wobbles) are all really good at dismantling patterns in platform camping and will start uair'ing you out of ur jumps and fsmashing you on landing lag.
extremely well done platform camping, performed by a good fox who is consistently good at adapting to the ic's and changing up his patterns (the most important factor,) will **** even the best ic's player. but this strategy is really hard to keep up and it's not really my style so i prefer to stay in their face as much as possible, but still knowing when to not attack because they're gonna dash attack/wd dsmash etc.
here's a recent set of me vs fly that has some of the **** i'm talking about
http://youtu.be/7eQWOg1qGbc
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
What is there to look for out of IC's shield besides shieldgrab?
Lovage
Smash Hero
bair oos and wd out fsmash (will **** early nair if they're fast)
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think the platform camp works but I also think it kind of plays into their hands. Fly told me that ICs are weakest when they have their back up to the edge, and when they're on platforms. I think this makes sense; they suck on platforms (no priority, etc) and they're highly gimpable at the edge (they can't WD back to space, Nana can't DD properly, their DD space is reduced, only one can grab the edge, etc). That said, a good ICs is never going to go right up onto the platform to fight you. For that reason I kind of think that offense is the way to go against them, with emphasis on pinning them at the edge (although it requires a lot of smarts and some experience because their defense is awkward). They don't really have a good approach in close quarters because of the nature of their mobility - Fox is really good at forcing them to retreat.
That's not to say I think defense (ie. the platform camp) is bad against them or anything. I just don't think it does as good a job of exploiting their most glaring weaknesses. That said, it's certainly safer, and it's probably very good if you want to play a style that reduces risk (which makes sense, particularly if you're not familiar with them as a character, because their punishment is stupid).
One way or another I think it's good to mix between the two appropriately (keep them on their toes).
That's not to say I think defense (ie. the platform camp) is bad against them or anything. I just don't think it does as good a job of exploiting their most glaring weaknesses. That said, it's certainly safer, and it's probably very good if you want to play a style that reduces risk (which makes sense, particularly if you're not familiar with them as a character, because their punishment is stupid).
One way or another I think it's good to mix between the two appropriately (keep them on their toes).
rokimomi
Smash Lord
I keep getting baited into wavedash dsmash by ic's and its not like against peach where you can overshoot and be fine. I imagine I need to back them to the ledge so their wd back distance isnt great but would that be the only situation i'd be safe from them?
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
This seems to be either because your really predictable or your spacing is really off. They shouldn't be able to wavedash back dsmash your aerials, and they certainly shouldn't be able to wavedash back then wavedash forward and dsmash you. You need to clarify how they actually downsmash you to help correct it.
If the ice climbers is just wavedashing back to dsmash and hitting your approaches it just means your approaches are getting predictable, try empty shffls to spotdodge or shine, or sh to waveland back etc.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
What I like about late nair is that because you're putting off doing the nair, you have a lot of time to observe their defense of choice and change your mind if things look dangerous. It's not like Fox lacks options out of a SH. Offhand, here are some immediately obvious ones that come to mind: DJ back, DJ --> platform waveland, waveland back, shine. I'm sure there are more, but those were just what seemed immediately appropriate.
chillindude829
Smash Master
theres no reason to use any moves vs ICs other than drill and shine as far as approaches go
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
Grab is good too here and there. Bthrow/fthrow can be really good.
unknown522
Some guy
man, I remember when M2K beat wobbles at APEX 2010; I saw him standing at the edge and would just b-throw one of them. I was confused as to how that worked though.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
Yo Lovage. When you land your dairs and go for a double shine do you use A or C stick down for the Dair? If you use A do you let the control stick go to neutral between the fastfall and the shine? I've been trying both A and C stick. Both are pretty hard. Im trying to get those double shine>wavelands like you do. Trying to get more technical like this.
I know the above is considered unecessary techskill. But I was wondering what is good advanced tech skill to have? I am really looking to put work into my Fox. (Last part is aimed at anyone, thanks)
I know the above is considered unecessary techskill. But I was wondering what is good advanced tech skill to have? I am really looking to put work into my Fox. (Last part is aimed at anyone, thanks)
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
M2K's strategies are very strange. And they often kill in one hit. What a guy 
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
LOL KK
sick avatar
sick avatar
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If I could get the animated version of it as my avatar that would be even more ****. It's supposed to blink and wag its tail
![Эикельманн [РУС]](/data/avatars/l/153/153661.jpg?1415225120){kind=avatar}
Эикельманн [РУС]
Banned via Administration
how can those PUPILS even remotely blink?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Because of SWF not allowing us to have animated avatars, you'll never truly know.
Iron Dragon
Smash Lord
Hey Unknown, I wanna know why you let Javi off the hook with SDing Game 3 of your set and letting him reset the match.
Why do it?
Why do it?
OverDose
Smash Rookie
About the ICs matchup.
I'm seeing a lot of talk about platform camping, but when I try to do this, I usually end up getting punished pretty hard (ie juggle into oblivion). Of course, I have some theories as to why this happens: My main training opponents are Ganon, Falcon, Marth, Sheik, and Fox. Against the first 3, I can't imagine that plat camping is a good strategy, except maybe on DL. Second theory: I don't have the adequate movement game to traverse platforms well enough; I use waveland on/off, doublejumps, and runoffs to traverse plats mostly. Should I be SH/FJing to get from plat to plat? Third Theory: I don't really know when and why plat camping is the best option.
Anyone have any general pointers on this topic. I have a friend who plays ICs (though not his main), and I wanna try this technique against him.
I'm seeing a lot of talk about platform camping, but when I try to do this, I usually end up getting punished pretty hard (ie juggle into oblivion). Of course, I have some theories as to why this happens: My main training opponents are Ganon, Falcon, Marth, Sheik, and Fox. Against the first 3, I can't imagine that plat camping is a good strategy, except maybe on DL. Second theory: I don't have the adequate movement game to traverse platforms well enough; I use waveland on/off, doublejumps, and runoffs to traverse plats mostly. Should I be SH/FJing to get from plat to plat? Third Theory: I don't really know when and why plat camping is the best option.
Anyone have any general pointers on this topic. I have a friend who plays ICs (though not his main), and I wanna try this technique against him.