Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[trahhSTEEZY]

i don't get why that response is comical to people. none of you, yes none of you can powershield consistently. you hardly see top level doing it right. so again why is it wrong for him to wanna know alternatives? there's so many options all of you don't abuse regularly, don't see how this is any different.

 

[Dark Hart]

it's was just so rubyiris though

 

[Divinokage]

I would be able to PS consistently only if the reaction time focus was infinite.

 

[CloneHat]

Powershielding doesn't even work half the time because only a certain part of the shield can do it, and even if you do it, you've shot one laser back at Falco. Big deal. Standing and powershielding is not a good strategy, but moving forward and shielding isn't very safe vs. Falco either.

What I'm saying is that it's better to powershield than normal shield, but normal shielding isn't what to do when you're trapped. I think a SH laser is a fairly big commitment (a full up-down SH), and I use that time to get out of the corner/into attack position.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

what? moving forward and shielding is really effective! move forward, shield, fullhop OoS if he lasered (idc if powershield was successful) or react to his approach if it wasnt a laser.

 

[FluxWolf]

u dont even have to powershield the lasers but if u do its a plus... im thinking about run up shield in his face -> up smash oos!

another thing that comes to mind in this mu is platform camping/camping falco in general! (fox's movement speed too good)

 

[omgwtfToph]

i don't get why that response is comical to people. none of you, yes none of you can powershield consistently. you hardly see top level doing it right. so again why is it wrong for him to wanna know alternatives? there's so many options all of you don't abuse regularly, don't see how this is any different.

you only need to powershield 1 laser to create a big opening; and even if you aren't sure if a given PS will work you can just run up and shield the laser and get ready to wavedash out, then just do something else assuming you don't hit the powershield (i.e. wavedash back instead of forward or whatever)

anyway there's a lot more Fox can do besides "just powershield" lol. I'm just playing devil's advocate

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

idk it's just very rare to see foxes make an opening or anything off of a PS'd laser (maybe im wrong idk). assuming the falco is decent he should react to getting hit to a laser smart (instead of how alot of falcos get all confused and stand there after getting PS'd)

i mean yeah you could run up and shield him, but it seems easier for the falco to react off that over you. especially if you shield too late for the PS and get hit.

but yeah i get your motives

 

[FluxWolf]

lasers have like no hit stun, for instance u could JUMP into a laser and if it hit u, u could still throw out a nair before u hit the ground. dont think of lasers as anything more than the falco trying to be annoying to create an opening out of you. its pretty ez pz to exploit a dumb laser spam falco (the ones who just laser u because they CAN and not for a good reason loll)

 

[rokimomi]

Shot in the dark but I don't think Jman was in any trouble either. Fox good at edge so Stryc never really wanted to approach and Jman was fine with the situation instead of trying his hardest to get in and potentially get interrupted by a rouge laser to death (what I would've done, ^_^).

As for solutions, try wavedash out of shield? Less time in the air as fox for falco to adjust laser timings compared to fullhopping oos.

 

[Strong Badam]

run up shield is amazing with almost every character

 

[Meneks]

lasers have like no hit stun, for instance u could JUMP into a laser and if it hit u, u could still throw out a nair before u hit the ground. dont think of lasers as anything more than the falco trying to be annoying to create an opening out of you. its pretty ez pz to exploit a dumb laser spam falco (the ones who just laser u because they CAN and not for a good reason loll)

Lasers barely have hitstun?

I think that depends more on the falco.


If you're playing a spammy falco, that "barely stuns" thought turns into you trying to walk through a scene in star wars.

 

[JPOBS]

I'm of the opinion that jman wanted to stay near the edge, and didn't really feel threatened at all. He was looking for a gimp so he was biding his time until stric got bored/lazy and he could punish.

He wasn't very locked down, I mean, he successfully took control of the middle of the map by going onto the right platform, then after a mini combo, he willingly went back to the edge on the other side.

Seems to me like jman was just biding his time and wasn't even close to "trapped"

 

[EWC]

He screwed up his techchase and went too deep with a nair threw himself offstage. I am hard-pressed to believe that was on purpose. He was definitely not feeling locked down at the beginning of the clip (6:13 to when he gets a grab), but afterwards (after he drops the combo) I think he was. He coulda taken the platform again when Stric ran back to the middle of the stage but he didn't and then stric pushed harder and he responded poorly and almost lost a stock.

 

[FluxWolf]

Lasers barely have hitstun?

I think that depends more on the falco.


If you're playing a spammy falco, that "barely stuns" thought turns into you trying to walk through a scene in star wars.

LOLZ kinda tru

 

[Sinji]

u dont even have to powershield the lasers but if u do its a plus... im thinking about run up shield in his face -> up smash oos!

another thing that comes to mind in this mu is platform camping/camping falco in general! (fox's movement speed too good)

Yea. Iv'e been running up and shield>usmash oos against falco but its only good in the middle of the stage. It is a great tactic for sure, but due to falco's easy grab gimps, I would highly recommend using this as a mix up rather than a normal approach.

run up shield is amazing with almost every character

Yea. For real. This is a brawl tactic used because they don't have JC grab in the game lol, Its safe and effective.

 

[JPOBS]

He screwed up his techchase and went too deep with a nair threw himself offstage. I am hard-pressed to believe that was on purpose. He was definitely not feeling locked down at the beginning of the clip (6:13 to when he gets a grab), but afterwards (after he drops the combo) I think he was. He coulda taken the platform again when Stric ran back to the middle of the stage but he didn't and then stric pushed harder and he responded poorly and almost lost a stock.

yea, I meant that he willingly chose to pursue towards the edge of the stage instead of trying to maintain centre control, because again, he seemed desperate to push stric offstage and go for a gimp.
after the upsmash, there was no way you could have continued the combo given stric's DI

idk, **** happens.

 

[EWC]

Yeah but I think he'd have been better off maintaining stage control. Idk I would usually either dash dance to bait a roll or full hop nair to cover the jump. It looked like Jman was just really desperate for a quick kill like you say and went for a super deep nair that had no chance of hitting. I guess that's not really the same as "dropping the combo" since there wasn't any true combo to be had but that's what I meant; He should have kept stage control instead of pushing. That probably wouldn't given him the gimp he was looking for.

 

[LLDL]

"How do we defeat him?! There must be a weakness"

 

[Bones0]

That ain't Falco.

 

[unknown522]

lasers have like no hit stun, for instance u could JUMP into a laser and if it hit u, u could still throw out a nair before u hit the ground. dont think of lasers as anything more than the falco trying to be annoying to create an opening out of you. its pretty ez pz to exploit a dumb laser spam falco (the ones who just laser u because they CAN and not for a good reason loll)

but but but, falco can legitimately combo into half of his moveset if a laser hits (granted that he's close enough obv). If you're close enough to n-air falco then he should be close enough to hit you with something as well right?

 

[Bones0]

Dude, this post is like Falcon's jab (or a Sheik WDing really fast).

 

[FluxWolf]

but but but, falco can legitimately combo into half of his moveset if a laser hits (granted that he's close enough obv). If you're close enough to n-air falco then he should be close enough to hit you with something as well right?

Yeahh, I did have a response to this but it just went around in circles of the options each char had... So maybe its just factual that Falco has more stage control than Fox in the mu?

I feel like Fox needs platforms to stay mobile/in the game, and its best for him to just run around/poke until he sees an opening or mistake... we all know how when Fox gets in how hard it is to keep him off u/keep ur stock as he has a lot of easy combos in the match up.

Who would u guys say has the better edge/gimp advantage in that mu? I know they both have a lot of options for it.

Edit: a while back when I was having a lot of trouble with this mu, PC was helping me out and showed me to this vid... it helped me a lot to watch so check it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTq1H3Dm3_g

 

[FrootLoop]

my feeling is that falco is better at not getting gimped and fox is better at gimping

 

[FluxWolf]

Mind = blown

Explain yourself frootylooop!

 

[Bones0]

Unless I'm missing something, you have to be really dumb to get gimped by Falco as Fox...

 

[PK Webb]

Well with lasering a fox till they r below the stage I can see fox gettin gimped pretty ez but not easier than falco

 

[omgwtfToph]

Unless I'm missing something, you have to be really dumb to get gimped by Falco as Fox...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UjTOzTiM2M&feature=related#t=6m54s

oic

 

[Bones0]

Getting hard read twice because you did the same thing in the same situation is pretty dumb (relatively). He grabbed the ledge for ****'s sake.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

it's easy to theory talk like that, but you aren't in real (genesis specifically) crew battles to really dictate how difficult it is to maintain smart choices.

rewatched a few matches from that, **** is so hype.

LOL pink shinobi though.

 

[Bones0]

Well my overall point was Falco gimps on Fox are a lot less common, which I think is evident when the only example given is a double hard-read that would have been avoided had M2K done almost anything at all different. Obviously they will still happen.

 

[PK Webb]

is learning up cancel usmash with c stick more viable then jc usmash with the a button to cover techrolls?

 

[omgwtfToph]

clawing usmash with the c-stick is awesome imo :D

 

[JPOBS]

A button upsmashes will always breifly charge iirc.

c stick wont. So that brief charge could make the difference between a upsmash and getting spotdodged->death combo'd

 

[Meneks]

is learning up cancel usmash with c stick more viable then jc usmash with the a button to cover techrolls?

Depends on the situations, meaning where your fingers are located at certain positions.


You could be in a position to do an A button Usmash with your fingers, and if you did a jc usmash it might not come out as fast as you'd think.

Sometimes I'll even hold press down on the control stick while dashing and do a usmash(same as jc usmash), just because my finger positioning is in specific placing and would be better to use a different combination of buttons to get the same effect.

 

[Bones0]

Depends on the situations, meaning where your fingers are located at certain positions.


You could be in a position to do an A button Usmash with your fingers, and if you did a jc usmash it might not come out as fast as you'd think.

Sometimes I'll even hold press down on the control stick while dashing and do a usmash(same as jc usmash), just because my finger positioning is in specific placing and would be better to use a different combination of buttons to get the same effect.

That's dash cancelling, and it's significantly slower than jump cancelling.

I use tap jump and c-stick for all my usmashes except for shine usmashes (because going from B to c-stick up SUCKS).

 

[Meneks]

That's dash cancelling, and it's significantly slower than jump cancelling.

I use tap jump and c-stick for all my usmashes except for shine usmashes (because going from B to c-stick up SUCKS).

Yes its slower, but in certain situations it might be the fastest option for your fingers if you happen to be playing a while and your hands are moist and want to decrease your chances of ****ing up (It happens lol)

 

[Dark Hart]

A button upsmashes will always breifly charge iirc.

c stick wont. So that brief charge could make the difference between a upsmash and getting spotdodged->death combo'd

Quoted for emphasis since I feel dumb fr not realizing this

 

[Bing]

my feeling is that falco is better at not getting gimped and fox is better at gimping

Fox and Falco are both great with spikes.. but uhh... Fox has the better recovery... by far... so umm.. hi

 

[FrootLoop]

falco's dj back to stage with a dair is a real threat against throw -> run off aerial. Fox's dair hitbox and knockback are rather sissy in comparison.
I think falco's gimps take more of a read on fox's double jump direction, and it's kind of tough to force fox below the stage if they re-firefox as soon as they take the laser and they have the option to illusion/shorten illusion after each laser. Runoff dj rising dair can cover lots of firefox angles in some situations though.
Fox's extra length can sometimes hurt him since they have more time to react if you pick a very vertical direction.