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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

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Lame? Well I already explained before that using different characters allows you to see what the other player is looking for with that character so it's pretty good that way. But at the same time, you will never master something if you don't practice it.
obviously you misinterpreted my point. i wasnt saying playing other characters in general is lame, but switching mains just cuz you cant do everything you need right off the bat is lame if you want to main fox

go post in the ganon boards

Strong Bad said:
I dunno. Switching to a slower but still technical player can help him learn more of the mental aspect of the game while his hands & muscle memory develop better tech skill. Would def suggest switching back to Fox as you feel that your Peach is getting faster thoguh.
Perhaps. i think if he was set on maining fox, the best way to improve as fox, technically and mentally would be to practice fox alone for a while. playing other characters once you have a pretty good grasp on fox later helps with match up knowledge, but for a while its best to stick with just fox for learning fox. also, fox still has effective things he can use that dont require much tech on both fast fallers and floaties. you could just try filling in your play style with other, more advanced things as you go along.

im not even sure if palpi is set on fox or anything, this just kinda led to this discussion haha
 

Divinokage

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obviously you misinterpreted my point. i wasnt saying playing other characters in general is lame, but switching mains just cuz you cant do everything you need right off the bat is lame if you want to main fox

go post in the ganon boards
Uhh.. That's exactly what I said but differently.. well the last part of my sentence lol.
 

Divinokage

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are you suggesting my whole point was summarized by that last sentence you said? lol

pretty sure my main point was that he should pretty much only play fox
Yes actually. However, for some people it doesn't work just playing one character, some people need to switch because that's just how they work. Everyone has to find their optimal way to gain as much experience as possible or learn tricks in the way they know how to do. I get it that it's important to learn the intricacies of a character by playing it a lot with different match-ups but I mean it's not the absolute truth for someone.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I think its dumb when people start losing and switch characters. 1) You give up instead of attempting to get better and learn the match-up. 2) It takes the focus off of your mistakes and puts it on your character. 3) It encourages habitual play. Instead of actually mixing up your play, you change characters and autopilot. There are short terms results because your opponent has to begin learning how you play that character, but your play has no added depth.
 

Divinokage

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Yes that's true but that isn't the issue right now. I'm only talking about the positive aspects of learning multiple chars, though it's only in rare cases good players that they will be playing multiple characters at the same level.
 

Thanos828

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I thought it was less of "switch because I'm bad at this matchup" and more of "I want to learn more of the matchup against this character, so I'm going to switch to the character I'm having trouble against just for kicks and see what they want to do against me in the matchup so I know what to expect".
 

Sinji

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In terms of approaching and Visa Versa against sheik, should I use lasers to force them to approach or take a rush down mindset in a match?

Also is nair>dsmash considered to be a finisher for fox to execute against spacies?
 

Palpi

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you just have to practice and then you will be consistent with fox. a lot of things with fox seem like theyd be impossible to be consistent at, but theyre not. they just take a ton of practice.

basically what im saying is, choosing to play a different character rather than one you want to just cuz you dont have the tech skill right away is kinda lame.
I agree that it is kind of lame. ;) I actually practice all of the time. I need practice more than other players I know...like if I don't play for a couple days, I am kind of ****ed without a proper warm up.

Also, I relate pretty much every mental aspect of the game...especially when theorycrafting (lol) to peach instead of fox. I just feel like using peach has opened up my mind to the game a little.

I've been playing fox for a while, probably going on 2 years. I am not saying that I should be perfectly consistent in 2 years though lol, I understand that no one is perfectly consistent.

I dunno. Switching to a slower but still technical player can help him learn more of the mental aspect of the game while his hands & muscle memory develop better tech skill. Would def suggest switching back to Fox as you feel that your Peach is getting faster thoguh.
Everyone keeps telling me just to use them both and have CP's. I mean it is good using a great fast faller and floaty at a competitive level. I have only used peach in tournament twice and I won when my fox couldn't.

But anyways, I feel like my peach has been getting a lot faster and smarter, and I will act upon your suggestion. I still enjoy playing fox, I am just stuck between characters, I guess.

Specifically, I feel more confident against spacies as peach rather than fox. I like to think of myself as very self aware and with a fast character as an opponent, playing peach lets me slow things down so I can play smarter.
 

Alch0ol

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I like your post sveet but I would like to point out that mango and m2k both switch/counterpick characters frequently in tournament. (Mango almost never plays fox vs fox and falco)

I think its alright to switch characters if your having a hard time with a specific match up.
 

Dark Hart

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I think its dumb when people start losing and switch characters. 1) You give up instead of attempting to get better and learn the match-up. 2) It takes the focus off of your mistakes and puts it on your character. 3) It encourages habitual play. Instead of actually mixing up your play, you change characters and autopilot. There are short terms results because your opponent has to begin learning how you play that character, but your play has no added depth.
lol okay suuuure

XD
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I like your post sveet but I would like to point out that mango and m2k both switch/counterpick characters frequently in tournament. (Mango almost never plays fox vs fox and falco)

I think its alright to switch characters if your having a hard time with a specific match up.
I'm not talking about the top 0.1% of players. I'm talking about the average player who goes to tournaments or plays at smashfests and talks about wanting to improve but never does. These people switch their characters all the time and use that to validate their johns to themselves.
 

Divinokage

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So it's not okay if I use Zelda instead of Peach for Ganon?

:(
If it's more comfortable for you then I don't see why you shouldn't do that. People think it's a cop-out but I mean sometimes depending on the player the match-up can be real hard so switching it up could be good at times.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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So it's not okay if I use Zelda instead of Peach for Ganon?

:(
No thats fine, If you actually plan to learn the match-up with zelda. Its the people who play half their games in every match-up with 1 character and when they lose a few they switch to their other character only because they are losing. It just lets those people john their way out of focusing, not autopiloting and improving.
 

KirbyKaze

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leffen just use all those things about lasers being awful and how falco can't start combos on fox you talk about all the time and you'll gg falco ez
 

Druggedfox

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Not in the mood to really write a lot now but...

You'll get 1-2 stocks better in that matchup if your DI/survival was better. Your DI on throws, in particular. You should learn to shorten, you'd recover far more often. Shine stall sometimes before DJing, it really is a good mixup.

There are also some edgeguarding sitautions where if you would run off and shine turn around stall, you could react to anything with a DJ bair and cover all his options.

Good punishment/neutral game in general though, it was pretty amusing to watch. I'm pretty unimpressed with calle w >_>

Might do a legit critique later, but that was just some quick/easy fix stuff that would easily let you **** instead of just winning.
 

leffen

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Haha yeah my DI is pretty damn horrible vs Falco... I defintely need to work on his stupid bthrow DI mixups.

I know about shortening and shinestalling among other things, but since this was my first real tournament I haven't had time to properly implement them =/
Honestly, I think that this set was pretty sloppy by both of us, I didn't really try to perform at my best because I knew that I had Calle W figured out when the match started.

Armada went falco on me in GF, which was even uglier. I literally didnt hit one edgeguard and just played retardedly all the time -.-
 

Druggedfox

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Mhhm, I understand how it is, don't worry about it =/

There was a lot of good stuff too though, and I think since those things are such easy fixes you'll get them down really quickly. Idk, calle w just like... threw out hitboxes a lot, and they got baited. He didn't really understand how to control fox's movement at all, among other things. I won't judge though, everyone has bad days, and I've seen better from him.

I remember armada's falco being pretty good, might have to watch that for fun =P

Lmao KK, I remember that... too good xD
 

Strong Badam

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i won a tourney going mostly fox. just a local tho.
my hands hurt...
 

FoxLisk

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leffen i dont have any worthwhile critique right now but i love your fox. stop playing yoshi in tournament and show *****es whats up with fox!
 

JPOBS

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As DF already said, if your DI on his back throw was better, you would be solidly 2-3 stocking him every game.

You gave him a LOT of stupid bthrow-> fsmash/ftilt/dair kills which should never happen. Just DI off the stage and try a tradional recovery. Way better than giving him free kills.

Uptilt/ftilt his side-Bs on reaction. He got away with hitting you and recovering onto the stage a lot. Sometimes you just jumped over them or shield them which is ok, but you missed the punish a lot and would run into his spotdodge->shine or uptilt. Just trust your reactions and kill him outright if he tries to side b onto the stage.

your ledgedashs are sex.
 

KirbyKaze

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Uh, sure. Because I think that fox wins a matchup 55-45 in ntsc, I must favor it over all other matchups, right?
Just up throw > up smash > up smash > up smash and exploit Falco's awful speed. It's ez bro.

Okay, I've had my fun. I just find it funny that so many Falcos say Fox ***** Falco, switch to Fox, and Falco turns out to be one of their weaker MUs and they can't apply any of the super broken anti-Falco strategies that make it such an ez pz MU for Fox.

Small tip: DIing behind Falco on throws gives you the best chance of escaping follows unless he d-throws (which you can react to very easily). It covers the b-throw and the u-throw.

I think chasing with grab would probably be more appropriate and give you much better follows than up smash at a lot of percents you're doing up smashes at.

I dunno if you just dislike the up tilt edgeguard to cover illusions or if you prefer the bair, but you miss a few easy up tilts going for some reactive bairs. Up tilt is way easier for a lot of heights.

For some reason you're missing a lot of techs. I dunno why.

In general it honestly looks like you're just missing small stuff here and there and he's arbitrarily killing you for it.
 

ShroudedOne

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Fox, Falco, Puff, Falcon, Peach. Those five all do really well with him, though I don't know the order.
 

Sinji

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I think the order is this. I may be wrong.

1. Fox- both foxes with easy shine gimps
2.Puff- Fox can uthrow and jiggz can rest after, or jiggs can bthrow> fox upsmash. Puff can also pound and fox upair after.
3.Falco- What I learned from the Dr.pp and lozr team, Lozr would uair peach at a high percent (130%for example) and due to falco's altitude when he jumps he can upair peach whereas if fox jumps he would miss the upair. Also falco can full hop dair> fox upsmash.
4.Peach- Peach can float camp and keep her stocks. Peach's dmash can combo into foxes bair.
5.Falcon- Fox can uthrow then falcon can knee. Falcon can dthrow then fox upsmash.
 

4 Aces

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Just up throw > up smash > up smash > up smash and exploit Falco's awful speed. It's ez bro.

Okay, I've had my fun. I just find it funny that so many Falcos say Fox ***** Falco, switch to Fox, and Falco turns out to be one of their weaker MUs and they can't apply any of the super broken anti-Falco strategies that make it such an ez pz MU for Fox.

Small tip: DIing behind Falco on throws gives you the best chance of escaping follows unless he d-throws (which you can react to very easily). It covers the b-throw and the u-throw.

I think chasing with grab would probably be more appropriate and give you much better follows than up smash at a lot of percents you're doing up smashes at.

I dunno if you just dislike the up tilt edgeguard to cover illusions or if you prefer the bair, but you miss a few easy up tilts going for some reactive bairs. Up tilt is way easier for a lot of heights.

For some reason you're missing a lot of techs. I dunno why.

In general it honestly looks like you're just missing small stuff here and there and he's arbitrarily killing you for it.
I thought you're supposed to DI away from backthrow and upthrow? Or is that for forwardthrow?

Also, how do you get away from Falco's downthrow spams/"chaingrab?" I just hold away until I break out, but I figure I'm doing it wrong, because I'm taking like, 35%-40% before getting away. :/

Two questions:
1. How close to the opponent do you have to be when you shine them to Thunder's Combo a character? I'm finding that even if I stand really close to them when I waveshine, I still miss the jab, and I can only really do it when I nair into --> waveshine. Does it matter if my opponent DIs the shine hit away from/towards you?

2. What can I do out of grabs against spacies? I feel like grab --> upsmash is good, but at the same time I think I can do better if I followed up with something else. Against one of my friends, I've done grab till around 20%-25%, and then uptilt x5 --> bair (this guy doesn't like to DI T-T). Idk if this is the right call. :/

So far from testing, you can chaingrab till around 30%-40% before uptilting to a turnaround regrab (assuming that there was no DI at all). Against level 9's, after the uptilt, they DI away, so you can chase and regrab...lolcomputers (I play lvl9's sometimes when I get bored)

Unfortunately, I don't have a real person to test against, so I can't get quality practice in. I've noticed that in vids, some will upthrow and if Falco/Fox DI's away, you can chase nair --> regrab. Not sure what range of percents that'd work at. And what if they DI behind instead?
 

Strong Badam

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Yeah there was a Falco at a tourney yesterday dthrow CGing a bunch of Foxes... in Grand Finals against me I just shined him every time.
 

Lovage

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grab combos vs. spacies

I thought you're supposed to DI away from backthrow and upthrow? Or is that for forwardthrow?

Also, how do you get away from Falco's downthrow spams/"chaingrab?" I just hold away until I break out, but I figure I'm doing it wrong, because I'm taking like, 35%-40% before getting away. :/

Two questions:
1. How close to the opponent do you have to be when you shine them to Thunder's Combo a character? I'm finding that even if I stand really close to them when I waveshine, I still miss the jab, and I can only really do it when I nair into --> waveshine. Does it matter if my opponent DIs the shine hit away from/towards you?

2. What can I do out of grabs against spacies? I feel like grab --> upsmash is good, but at the same time I think I can do better if I followed up with something else. Against one of my friends, I've done grab till around 20%-25%, and then uptilt x5 --> bair (this guy doesn't like to DI T-T). Idk if this is the right call. :/

So far from testing, you can chaingrab till around 30%-40% before uptilting to a turnaround regrab (assuming that there was no DI at all). Against level 9's, after the uptilt, they DI away, so you can chase and regrab...lolcomputers

Unfortunately, I don't have a real person to test against, so I can't get quality practice in. I've noticed that in vids, some will upthrow and if Falco/Fox DI's away, you can chase nair --> regrab. Not sure what range of percents that'd work at. And what if they DI behind instead?
falco's dthrow sucks

1. vs. falco's dthrow "chaingrab," i hold away and mash shine, this should work every time. you can also buffer roll back which might be useful as well. at higher percents (40%+) i prefer to hold away and dtilt.

thunders is easy


2. your opponent having good DI / SDI on the shine will make thunders slightly harder, but if you focus on having a fast, near full-length wavedash out of your shine you will hit the reset every time. that is until u play zhu cuz he SDI's out of the reset at 7% lol (thunders is way more reliable vs. fox than it is vs. falco)

but yea, even if they have really great DI on the shine, if you do your wavedash correctly you should have no problem hitting the reset (good DI combined with you hitting a max-range shine might make thunders impossible, i'm not sure)

how to grab combo vs. spacies

3. grab combos vs. spacies are actually pretty complex - knowing exactly how to follow-up on a grab takes mastery of each individual option as well as the experience to know which one to use and why.

proximity to platforms, stage position and your opponent's percent are all things you need to take under consideration before you decide which grab combo to do.

things i consider when i grab combo spacies:

a) if they're too low to uthrow -> usmash -> usmash, it's probably a better idea to chaingrab a few times if possible, this will only work on certain stages and only if you are consistent at the CG at low percents. i suck at chaingrabbing so i just uthrow -> usmash and tech chase them.

b) above 55-65 or whatever percent, it's pretty much always better to uthrow -> utilt -> bair (sometimes uair like vs. falcon) than uthrow -> usmash. more damage, puts them off stage, as well as letting you be more mobile after your punish (600 times better in teams btw)

c) platforms are everything - if you're directly below a platform and they will be able to tech before you do your uthrow -> bair, you should either consider bthrowing (good near an edge) or wait for them to tech and then bair them on the platform (extremely easy with fox's speed)

at low percents (<10,) if you grab and then IMMEDIATELY uthrow them onto a platform, it's pretty common for low/mid level players to miss the tech, giving you a free uair -> grab or usmash.

d) if they are at uthrow -> uair kill percent, do a ****ing uthrow uair.

e) bthrow can be pretty good at the edge, i wouldn't recommend it before 6-7%, but after that up until maybe 25-30%, it puts you in an extremely powerful position to gimmick your way into a low percent gimp. people react very differently when they're put into a position like that, so it becomes a battle of the kooks. (expect a success rate of under 20% for this technique because there's about 16 things they can do to avoid dying, but you never know you might guess right!

f) at high percents (90+) uthrowing a spacie on a flat surface (no platforms for them to land on) is very important. if you uthrow a spacie at kill percent, if they choose to DI to the left or right, you can land a charged usmash for a guaranteed kill. if they choose not to DI the uthrow (like a smart player,) you will have to react and go for a bair (or uair if it will kill.) despite the fact that it's common knowledge that DI'ing the uthrow at high percents is guaranteed death, you will be shocked at how many players still do this, basically throwing their stock away lol

hope this answered some of your questions
 

ShroudedOne

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Wow, Lovage. That was insanely useful. I am definitely saving this one. Thanks a ton. :)

(I DI uthrows all the time, so gotta break that habit)
 

Wenbobular

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@ Leffen - CalleW kinda refuses to sweetspot his sideb, whether it's shortening or even trying to get the correct height (it's pretty far above the ledge)
Just downward angle forward tilt and be ready if he techs

I think everyone else mentioned DI and shortening illusion to recover so whatever
Good to see someone ledgedash in tournament
 

PB&J

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What Silent Wolf said about just practicing fox- you are right,i remember watching fox mains back in 07,Silent Wolf,PC, and Shiz. I always thought "My fox can never be that technical" I started practicing more,playing more people. always had that " My techskill is messing up mentality in tounries,but i felt the smarter i got at the game the more precise my techskill. The more you play is the less you mess up most of the time. the more i thought of follow ups really helped me too.So stick with Fox if you really want to main him.I play alot of characters,but only because i like them,but im going to play mainly fox @ Apex ,maybe Falco in pools a little.

NOW Leffen- I think alot people (Top people arent good against falco so dont let falco get to you,i think the more you play him ,you will figure it out) Druggedfox and some others already covered alot,watching vids helps alot too in certain situations vs falco. I try to mix up doubleshines against falco for he cant shine me out of shield as much. If your going to Apex im sure you can learn the matchup there or i can help or others can
 

Palpi

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@ Leffen - CalleW kinda refuses to sweetspot his sideb, whether it's shortening or even trying to get the correct height (it's pretty far above the ledge)
Just downward angle forward tilt and be ready if he techs

I think everyone else mentioned DI and shortening illusion to recover so whatever
Good to see someone ledgedash in tournament
I ledgedash in tournament. :DDDDDDDDDDDDDD
 
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