Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[4 Aces]

falco's dthrow sucks

1. vs. falco's dthrow "chaingrab," i hold away and mash shine, this should work every time. you can also buffer roll back which might be useful as well. at higher percents (40%+) i prefer to hold away and dtilt.

thunders is easy

2. your opponent having good DI / SDI on the shine will make thunders slightly harder, but if you focus on having a fast, near full-length wavedash out of your shine you will hit the reset every time. that is until u play zhu cuz he SDI's out of the reset at 7% lol (thunders is way more reliable vs. fox than it is vs. falco)

but yea, even if they have really great DI on the shine, if you do your wavedash correctly you should have no problem hitting the reset (good DI combined with you hitting a max-range shine might make thunders impossible, i'm not sure)

how to grab combo vs. spacies

3. grab combos vs. spacies are actually pretty complex - knowing exactly how to follow-up on a grab takes mastery of each individual option as well as the experience to know which one to use and why.

proximity to platforms, stage position and your opponent's percent are all things you need to take under consideration before you decide which grab combo to do.

things i consider when i grab combo spacies:

a) if they're too low to uthrow -> usmash -> usmash, it's probably a better idea to chaingrab a few times if possible, this will only work on certain stages and only if you are consistent at the CG at low percents. i suck at chaingrabbing so i just uthrow -> usmash and tech chase them.

b) above 55-65 or whatever percent, it's pretty much always better to uthrow -> utilt -> bair (sometimes uair like vs. falcon) than uthrow -> usmash. more damage, puts them off stage, as well as letting you be more mobile after your punish (600 times better in teams btw)

c) platforms are everything - if you're directly below a platform and they will be able to tech before you do your uthrow -> bair, you should either consider bthrowing (good near an edge) or wait for them to tech and then bair them on the platform (extremely easy with fox's speed)

at low percents (<10,) if you grab and then IMMEDIATELY uthrow them onto a platform, it's pretty common for low/mid level players to miss the tech, giving you a free uair -> grab or usmash.

d) if they are at uthrow -> uair kill percent, do a ****ing uthrow uair.

e) bthrow can be pretty good at the edge, i wouldn't recommend it before 6-7%, but after that up until maybe 25-30%, it puts you in an extremely powerful position to gimmick your way into a low percent gimp. people react very differently when they're put into a position like that, so it becomes a battle of the kooks. (expect a success rate of under 20% for this technique because there's about 16 things they can do to avoid dying, but you never know you might guess right!

f) at high percents (90+) uthrowing a spacie on a flat surface (no platforms for them to land on) is very important. if you uthrow a spacie at kill percent, if they choose to DI to the left or right, you can land a charged usmash for a guaranteed kill. if they choose not to DI the uthrow (like a smart player,) you will have to react and go for a bair (or uair if it will kill.) despite the fact that it's common knowledge that DI'ing the uthrow at high percents is guaranteed death, you will be shocked at how many players still do this, basically throwing their stock away lol

hope this answered some of your questions

Thanks. Definitely gonna save this.

2. Yeah, you're right. I think my waveshines aren't consistently quick/long enough yet. At least not consistently. How much harder is it to do Thunder's Combo on characters other than Fox/Falco? It feels like I have an easier time doing Thunders against Fox/Falco as opposed to Idk...Game&Watch/Jigglypuff/Pichu/Kirby.

3. Haha yeah, I've caught quite a lot of people in the upthrow --> missed tech --> upair.

e) Why before the 25-30% threshold? Does it become harder to gimp after that percentile because they're sent too far away?

f) Actually wasn't too sure about that. Thanks for clearing it up.

Definitely gonna keep all of these things in mind. K, well looks like I just need practice and experience now.

 

[Lovage]

Thanks. Definitely gonna save this.

2. Yeah, you're right. I think my waveshines aren't consistently quick/long enough yet. At least not consistently. How much harder is it to do Thunder's Combo on characters other than Fox/Falco? It feels like I have an easier time doing Thunders against Fox/Falco as opposed to Idk...Game&Watch/Jigglypuff/Pichu/Kirby.

3. Haha yeah, I've caught quite a lot of people in the upthrow --> missed tech --> upair.

e) Why before the 25-30% threshold? Does it become harder to gimp after that percentile because they're sent too far away?

f) Actually wasn't too sure about that. Thanks for clearing it up.

Definitely gonna keep all of these things in mind. K, well looks like I just need practice and experience now.

2. ya its easier vs spacies than most other chars

e) when they're above 30, even at the edge, i wouldn't risk going for a bthrow gimp that has a high chance of failing when i can do a guaranteed uthrow combo for like 40-60% that will probably leave them offstage anyways. this is just a case of choosing the better option (if i was behind 3 stocks i might still do bthrow but that's about it)

 

[Brookman]

oh hai

 

[ShroudedOne]

Woooow. Long time, no see, Brookman.

 

[omgwtfToph]

brookman don't ever leave us again <3

btw I got vids I need critique on as soon as they go up >.>

 

[Brookman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aayNPvD8YE&feature=g-all&fb_source=message < ME VS. PINE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubZRAAGOoFA&fb_source=message < ME VS. BANKS

 

[Van.]

how the **** do you sick, sick men get reverse waveshin-->upsmash on Marth

do you walk slightly after the WD, or dash and JC the usmash?

either way, you kids are ****ing insane

 

[rokimomi]

Keep holding the direction marth is in and hit up c stick during the turn around animation (sometime then, dunno the exact timing), its so easy it feels like cheating. Alot easier on peach and stuff, so I guess you may want to judge whether or not the upsmash will hit from where you end the waveshine of course. If he's further you may want to just dash attack or dash and grab after the waveshine just like any other waveshine combo on marth.

 

[EWC]

On marth it's easiest to just dash for a little bit after your waveshine. That way you don't even really have to pay attention to whether it's backwards or forwards. Or at least that's what I find.

If your wavedashes are long you can do it just by turning around and walking a bit too.

 

[4 Aces]

2. ya its easier vs spacies than most other chars

e) when they're above 30, even at the edge, i wouldn't risk going for a bthrow gimp that has a high chance of failing when i can do a guaranteed uthrow combo for like 40-60% that will probably leave them offstage anyways. this is just a case of choosing the better option (if i was behind 3 stocks i might still do bthrow but that's about it)

2. Well, I guess at least those match-ups hardly matter. lol

True true.

On marth it's easiest to just dash for a little bit after your waveshine. That way you don't even really have to pay attention to whether it's backwards or forwards. Or at least that's what I find.

If your wavedashes are long you can do it just by turning around and walking a bit too.

Part of my problem is that I do them too slowly; they always seem to shield my upsmash regardless of whether I forward waveshine or backward waveshine.

 

[EWC]

That's a problem that can only be fixed by practice. In the mean time stick to waveshine grab vs marth. Until you get really consistent with the other options (nair, upsmash, dtilt?), it's usually better simply by virtue of reliability.

With time the motions will come to be very natural. I really do think it's just matter of sheer repetitions to build muscle memory; If fear most the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times and all that.

Also a kinda gimmicky fix to not being able to move fluidly out waveshines that will sometimes let you get kills on marth when you'd want to upsmash is to waveshine dash attack. This is great because it's probably the easiest move to connect after a shine on marth, and at high percents it'll combo into upair for a kill if they don't DI the dash attack.

 

[DanteFox]

what's the best way to play against campy falcos? I got ***** last weekend at a tournament.

Basically what they would do is:

>laser laser laser

>I approach with aerials

>spot dodge, shine

>begin combos

>me: D:

>they do hungrybox-style spaced bairs. pain in the *** to approach from the front this way. If I roll, I can get *****.

wat do?

 

[Winston]

Falco's bair is pretty easy to beat if it's obvious when he's going to do it. Just wavedash back and then attack him during the lag. (I know the AC bair has no lag upon landing, but there's a window between when the hitbox is out and when he actually lands). I like running in and usmashing during this gap, it seems to work the best.

 

[unknown522]

^ yeah, u-smash that all dai!

 

[Binx]

what's the best way to play against campy falcos? I got ***** last weekend at a tournament.

Basically what they would do is:

>laser laser laser

>I approach with aerials

>spot dodge, shine

>begin combos

>me: D:

>they do hungrybox-style spaced bairs. pain in the *** to approach from the front this way. If I roll, I can get *****.

wat do?

If you power shield even one laser you can throw falco off really hard and do a ton of damage.

If you are really, really confident they will spot dodge an aerial you can shine immediately after your attack and catch them a lot of the time, or you can empty short hop and grab immediately, this sometimes catches them out of shields too if they didn't dodge.

For bairs you have plenty of options I like just wait until they try to commit to something more risky since bair can auto cancel, but it is possible to grab them as they land if they DI towards you while doing it, if they di away just walk a little closer and punish them if they do something risky, or keep taking more and more of the stage and cornering them if they keep retreating. If you time a fsmash correctly you can sometimes catch them with those as well although its much less safe vs good players. I personally like to play really platform focused with plenty of wavelands vs falcos who like to laser a lot and try to get a solid nair or bair while falling through or off a platform to start my combos.

 

[PK Webb]

U could run in then sheild and shine oos

 

[Silent Wolf]

what's the best way to play against campy falcos? I got ***** last weekend at a tournament.

Basically what they would do is:

>laser laser laser

>I approach with aerials

>spot dodge, shine

>begin combos

>me: D:

>they do hungrybox-style spaced bairs. pain in the *** to approach from the front this way. If I roll, I can get *****.

wat do?

what i do vs campy falcos is try to choose a small, 3 platformed stage like battlefield or yoshis and play off the platforms. if done right it can work great, but if not falco will **** you lol. falco also ***** on those stages so make sure you play safe.

you dont only wanna play off the platforms though, and usually dont wanna attack too much from them since coming from above is risky. playing the platforms safely helps with mixups and gets falco to expect a lot more out of your movements. it can also make him go into the air more which makes him more vulnerable. it prob wont be too effective at first since there are a lot of ways to get put into a bad position on them, but once you get good at it it *****.

also getting good at power shielding always helps. it easier to do when you dash into your shield.

also if theyre really campy and just laser over and over under a platform or something and you know theyre just waiting, maybe shine a laser back/shoot some lasers in between, then land and shine

another thing you should do is use sh shine as a mixup in your approach to knock him down/follow up. it ***** falco.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

gah idk i get hit way more than i should

me vs peach

i play a bit reckless but it's all the fox i have at the moment. if you guys wouldn't mind pointing out some habits that'd be ****, tyty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxYnD_ehD34&list=UUSjgETlqKC5S3F8xvIPfg-g&feature=plcp

 

[Brookman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aayNPvD8YE&feature=g-all&fb_source=message < ME VS. PINE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubZRAAGOoFA&fb_source=message < ME VS. BANKS

If anybody wants to throw some input my way I'd appreciate it.


Try being less obvious than crush

YYou need to stop jumping into marios down airs

 

[crush]

If anybody wants to throw some input my way I'd appreciate it.

YYou need to stop jumping into marios down airs or you'll end up quitting smashboards, and eventually smash.

 

[Palpi]

gah idk i get hit way more than i should

me vs peach

i play a bit reckless but it's all the fox i have at the moment. if you guys wouldn't mind pointing out some habits that'd be ****, tyty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxYnD_ehD34&list=UUSjgETlqKC5S3F8xvIPfg-g&feature=plcp

You definitely were reckless. You should not have lost a game. All he did was run and dash attack and run and full hop nair or retreating full hop bair. You didn't really exploit this as well as you could have. You seemed on auto-pilot.

 

[FoxLisk]

what's the best way to play against campy falcos? I got ***** last weekend at a tournament.

Basically what they would do is:

>laser laser laser

>I approach with aerials

>spot dodge, shine

>begin combos

>me: D:

>they do hungrybox-style spaced bairs. pain in the *** to approach from the front this way. If I roll, I can get *****.

wat do?

i mean if they always spot dodge > shine your approach, just fake an approach. do everything you normally do before approaching (i dunno what this is for you; maybe you DD twice and then aerial or something) and then just dont actually approach. undershoot an empty sh, or just run in and grab, or something. if they're REALLY predictable about when they spot dodge, it's fun to run up cold and charge an usmash.

 

[Thanos828]

what i do vs campy falcos is try to choose a small, 3 platformed stage like battlefield or yoshis and play off the platforms. if done right it can work great, but if not falco will **** you lol. falco also ***** on those stages so make sure you play safe.

Idk about battlefield, but I always thought Falcos don't like Yoshis vs. Fox.

 

[Sinji]

Silent Wolf... You gotta tell me where you get those fox avatars. You got a link?

lol Brookman and crush.

gah idk i get hit way more than i should

me vs peach

i play a bit reckless but it's all the fox i have at the moment. if you guys wouldn't mind pointing out some habits that'd be ****, tyty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxYnD_ehD34&list=UUSjgETlqKC5S3F8xvIPfg-g&feature=plcp

Trahh- In terms of laser spacing, don't laser when approaching. That is an easy dsmash for peach to utilizes. Try double lasering more against peach more. Their were a lot instances where you could have double lasered due to the air gap between you and peach. You could raked up more damage. You were doing good in your platform camping but you should have done more with your camping by empty drop> grab when peach was in a bad position, of use an aerial when dropping. when approaching with aerials while peach is floating, nair when peach is floating and continue the combo with utlit>upair or two uptilts if its possible. Keep in mind that this at low percents. At mid percents chain your nairs into a upair or upsmash depending on the DI. Don't drill when she is floating because she can get a free dsmash. Also mix up your follow ups when using nair>shining approach like when peach is at a low percent and you see her crouching, nair shine>then wave dash back wards to avoid her dsmash. When at the edge, you can drop>shine turnaround>bair to gain a little hitbox when peach is trying to edge guard you. Also power shield> buffer upsmash when peach hits your shield with a fair. In terms of recovering, shorten your illusion more and recover high with up b. Peach has a hard time reaching fox or even finishing him off when he recovers high or shortens his illusion respectively. Tech Jump her dsmash when recovering from below. Use more falling uairs when you are close to peach. it can start a utilit or upair combo. Good job none the less.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Idk about battlefield, but I always thought Falcos don't like Yoshis vs. Fox.

i woudlnt actually counter bf, just cuz i dont like how it limits my recovery, but it works the same way as yoshis in the way i was describing.

really? maybe it just depends on the falco. whenever i play sion in tourney we go pretty much all yoshis lol. for that match up i feel the stage choice depends on preference and playstyle since none of them are solid CPs

@ sinji - never haha. i keep all the good fox ones to myself =)

 

[omgwtfToph]

To add to the vs. falco discussion - on FD where you don't have the convenience of platforms to work with, one of the best tips I ever got in that matchup was to realize that there really isn't anything falco can do to your full jump bair. If you're getting sidestep shined, you're probably overextending and committing too hastily - like, you're trying to full jump nair in when it's not actually safe. Whereas, if you sit outside Falco's horizontal range and bair his face, he can't really do anything to punish that. I think Fox's bair is a better spacing tool than even Falco's bair, you just have to work it to your advantage. Basically, take the last point you posted (about how painful it is to approach vs. Falco's bair) and turn that against them; use your own bair.

Then once you get a hit, you can go crazy.

 

[Silent Wolf]

To add to the vs. falco discussion - on FD where you don't have the convenience of platforms to work with, one of the best tips I ever got in that matchup was to realize that there really isn't anything falco can do to your full jump bair. If you're getting sidestep shined, you're probably overextending and committing too hastily - like, you're trying to full jump nair in when it's not actually safe. Whereas, if you sit outside Falco's horizontal range and bair his face, he can't really do anything to punish that. I think Fox's bair is a better spacing tool than even Falco's bair, you just have to work it to your advantage. Basically, take the last point you posted (about how painful it is to approach vs. Falco's bair) and turn that against them; use your own bair.

Then once you get a hit, you can go crazy.

full jump bair is good as a mix up. use it too much and falco might catch you with a laser before you land. that might happen anyway haha.

example: fox thinks falco is coming in with a sh nair or something, so fox full jumps in preparation for a bair. falco begins to fade back a bit then lasers rather than nairing, thus setting up a grab combo.

i mainly said this cuz you said "there really isn't anything falco can do to your full jump bair"

 

[omgwtfToph]

oh, I meant that more in the situation not where Fox is on the defensive, but where Falco is on the defensive. You can like, full jump bair and clip Falco with the outside of it so that even if he sidesteps, shine won't connect; and Falco can't laser in that situation.

 

[leffen]

why aren't people waveshining oos, powershielding lasers and ledgedashing without shine guys.

we be mad scrubby.

once we catch up in tech skill fox will annihilate falco imho.

 

[Thanos828]

i woudlnt actually counter bf, just cuz i dont like how it limits my recovery, but it works the same way as yoshis in the way i was describing.

really? maybe it just depends on the falco. whenever i play sion in tourney we go pretty much all yoshis lol. for that match up i feel the stage choice depends on preference and playstyle since none of them are solid CPs

@ sinji - never haha. i keep all the good fox ones to myself =)

For battlefield I would agree with you because Falco can use his lasers to make you recover low which usually ends up in getting battlefielded/spiked, and the platform width and height are all almost ideal for Falco's combos (Plus it matters more to Fox in recovering low than it does to Falco)

Most Falcos I've talked to dislike Yoshis because of how easy Fox can **** from pretty much any platform. The stage is small which not only hinders laser control but lets Fox get early kills/gimps, as well as harboring a low ceiling (which in retrospect can also benefit Falco because of those silly shine UpB kills). The small size makes it harder for Falco to edgeguard Fox too, coupled with Randall and the other silly stuff.

I guess the platforms are somewhat ideal for combing with Falco, but all in all the cons outweigh the pros IMO

 

[omgwtfToph]

why aren't people waveshining oos, powershielding lasers and ledgedashing without shine guys.

we be mad scrubby.

once we catch up in tech skill fox will annihilate falco imho.

For what it's worth I don't think waveshine oos is THAT game-changing against space animals, but I completely agree on the other 2 things.

 

[Brookman]

I see...


*Crawls back into hovel*

 

[leffen]

For what it's worth I don't think waveshine oos is THAT game-changing against space animals, but I completely agree on the other 2 things.

waveshine oos makes it pretty much impossible for anyone to pressure your shield.

but its true, falcos pressure has so big holes that fox other broken options oos (nair,bair, usmash and wd) suffice.

waveshine oos is more gamechanging vs fox and sheiks shield pressure

 

[Sinji]

Someone critique for Brookman. I don''t know the Mario matchup that much lol.

 

[Silent Wolf]

For battlefield I would agree with you because Falco can use his lasers to make you recover low which usually ends up in getting battlefielded/spiked, and the platform width and height are all almost ideal for Falco's combos (Plus it matters more to Fox in recovering low than it does to Falco)

Most Falcos I've talked to dislike Yoshis because of how easy Fox can **** from pretty much any platform. The stage is small which not only hinders laser control but lets Fox get early kills/gimps, as well as harboring a low ceiling (which in retrospect can also benefit Falco because of those silly shine UpB kills). The small size makes it harder for Falco to edgeguard Fox too, coupled with Randall and the other silly stuff.

I guess the platforms are somewhat ideal for combing with Falco, but all in all the cons outweigh the pros IMO

falco also has his cons in terms of recovery on bf. he cant tech shines and also has the same problems fox does beyond that. i think bf is pretty even, i myself just dont like it as much as other stages.

which falcos have you talked to about this? what do you mean by "fox can **** from pretty much any platform?" fox can do most of the same platform combos on all stages with them. unless by "from" you mean from above, which imo isnt actually that good unless used very sparingly and not at first chance. stuff similar to sh nair over them from a platform comes to mind for that situation.

the lasers can make it easier to back fox into a corner or into a risky jump on the platforms/double jump (bad zoning) since the stage is smaller. once hes cornered he has a lot less flexibility.

like i said before, i think it comes down to preference which usually comes from play style.

 

[Winston]

How is Sheik getting hit by shine oos regularly ...? What kind of pressure are they doing, unspaced jabs?

 

[leffen]

I don't really like BF all that much either, recovery problems etc really suck for fox much more than they do for falco .

It also feels like falco can move much better since his double jump is better adjusted to the high top platform.


@Winston: you can shine her max spaced jab everytime since she has to retreat her arm.
Also, if fair is even a little staled or done not frame perfectly then you can shine before she can jab.
If she gets the jab, you'll be on the ground and holding down so you can easily cc it to a dtilt or smth.

Perfectly spaced retreating fair is pretty safe on your shield, but if you dash/walk into shield she won't be able to space it out of your shine range, esp since you'll most likely get shield DI on the fair since you'll be holding forward.
Shine is also fast enough that it will catch their tomahawk grab (you actually cannot humanly react to them fairing or not).
Shine will beat full needles->grab
If sheik spaces a bair low it will also catch them since her leg is stretched out in her landing animation, same with nair. High nairs/bairs can be punished with other options.

Also- sheik has to approach in the matchup because of your laser, so she will have to use approaching aerials if you're playing the matchup correctly.

 

[Lovage]

waveshine oos makes it pretty much impossible for anyone to pressure your shield.

dunno about that

the whole reason falco's pressure is good is because good players mix up their timings constantly, making the timing of your shine much more difficult. against regular falcos, yeah, they do the same thing every fking time and you can shine out of it, but top falcos constantly cover up the holes in their pressure with doubleshine, shinegrab and fading back after the dair.

it's the mixup that makes falco's (fox's too) pressure good, it's pretty ****ty if you did it the same way every time.

 

[Winston]

I got the impression sheiks mostly used spaced fair on shield

 

[leffen]

Its more the fact that they have a very hard time getting on to your shield overall, they have to do a VERY late dair/nair for you not to be able to shine it oos which is pretty damn hard to get since you don't just sit in your shield waiting for them to approach.


and I dunno why you are speaking to me like I dont know ****, I mained falco myself and I often play vs top falcos with fox (and I use waveshine oos very successfully myself). I obviously know that its not that better than most other options when they are already sitting on your shield


edit: Winston did you read my post at all?