Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[JPOBS]

whenever i see a fox doing "it" right, I always think "holy **** this character is stupid broken". The sheer helplessness of the other player just makes me feel all tingly inside.

no other character does that for me.

 

[Palpi]

I think Cyrain's fox is beautiful!!!!!!!!

(random)

 

[Druggedfox]

I think Cyrain's fox is beautiful!!!!!!!!

(random)

He's about to main falco, get your last looks while you can

 

[RaynEX]

idk i guess i just took it super negative lol. i've always appreciated the advice from you and the others that consistently give it, it's a big part of the foundation of my fox right now. just cuhz i quoted that alone doesn't mean i didn't read every other word in the post!

Keep practicing, you'll be beast in no time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weKgvlARW5s
help me raynex I suck and I need help

If it feels like I'm skipping things, its because JPOBS covered them already. Good **** Tristan.


0:16 - When you block one hit of dsmash and WD in to punish, shine is the only move that works. Anything else is too slow. The rule of thumb is to punish with WD oos Shine -> whatever

0:53 - Uthrow at 0, Sheik doesn't d.i., utilt is a true combo. Mix it up from there.

2:42 - All the Sheik had to do was drop through the platform and fair you for that stock. Don't ledge-hop dair unless you have good reason to. Focus on getting back onto the stage.

2:58 - Keep your distance and play it patient. You know frame data; the shino stall is impenetrable. I'd recommond staying "SH nair" distance away from the edge. You still didn't know if your opponent was capable of doing good ledge WDs and beating your ****, so play it safe until you figure out how competent they are at it. Luckily you only took a few hits and blocked his dsmash, but it could have been SO much worse for you if he grabbed.

3:07 - This is DREAMLAND, you are FOX, your opponent is INVINCIBLE. Use the platforms my young padawan. You have one of the biggest stages to work with, so please don't jump onto the tracks and face the freight train head on. Oh, and don't hang around the edge vs. an invincible Sheik.

btw that decision cost you the match.

GENERAL ADVICE:

You spent a decent amount of time distancing yourself from your opponent, which was good. Once you realize its the type of player that won't run into you, you should take more liberties in your approach. Push the fight to them and see how willing your opponent is to step out of their defensive boundairies. Come from above, or fake it to make him come to you. Chase him to one side of the stage to see how far he will DD before turning around. If you can pinpoint how he reacts to your approaches it will be much easier to hit him. I think its generally a good idea to take one big step forward via nair/dair or any other approach, to see exactly what you're up against. Then, base your subsequent decisions off those first moments in the match. If all else fails pour laser, bair, and uthrow -> uair (25-30%) over your problems and watch them disintegrate before you.

I think inexperience got the best of you this time. A few fixes to your match-up knowledge should make it much easier in the future. Keep at it StrongBad!

whenever i see a fox doing "it" right, I always think "holy **** this character is stupid broken". The sheer helplessness of the other player just makes me feel all tingly inside.

no other character does that for me.

David's Sheik, PP's Falco, Axe's Pikachu, Hax's Falcon and Taj's Mewtwo all make me think 'holy ****' at least once when I watch them play.

But over the years I've become a regular commuter on the David **** train so now its less amazing and more annoying -_-

 

[Ministry]

you and ryans fox, when you guys actually combo. that and armadas combo game on sheik.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Time on platforms in this match-up is time you can use to scout openings

could you give me an example or two of these openings? i can't seem to wait for a good opening because i guess i don't see them without applying pressure..i dunno.

 

[Brookman]

could you give me an example or two of these openings? i can't seem to wait for a good opening because i guess i don't see them without applying pressure..i dunno.

TBH, any position can be an opening at any time. It's something you're going to have to learn and figure out for yourself. Fox is really fast and if we're still talking about peach (???) she is really slow, even if the person using her has great reactions their first instinct will usually be to throw out a dash or down smash. m i rite?

@ StrongBad:

It seems that you basically have no concept of playstyle with fox. You've seen what most every body does and you figured "Hey, I can probably do that" but you have no real foundation. You're almost always giving sin enough room to breath, charge needles, have a picnic and masturbate. Your lasers (short hopping + b) are sloppy, and you like to roll and spot dodge. You down smashed (randomly??) frequently

I recommend you try spacing vs sheik with short hops (her dash attack is long and fast) and try to abuse down tilt while she's on the ground, since it out spaces her forward tilt it's definitely my go-to ground move. Get comfortable playing in people's faces - just stay away from the edge.

A lot of what happens here is, you get an opportuninty - usually a grab - to build some percent or take him off the stage and all you are able to do is throw and he gets away. I think I'm gonna prescribe a hefty dose of falco playing. It just appears that you have trouble controlling fox. I don't think you even tried to short hop a move beside his nair. Honestly, your last two stocks in that match didn't even have anything relevant

I'm gona look at this from the sheik's perspective.

So basically, the opening of the match the sheik player full jump needles and you run to the opposite side of the stage. the sheik comes down, there's a little exchange and it ends up with you spot dodging and shining the sheik to the edge (!!). The sheik player holds shield for a moment until he realizes you have run to the opposite side of the stage again.

I think, at this moment, the sheik player realizes he's going to win and he begins to slow encroach on your spacing with fair/f tilt/dash attack for the rest of the match. He stays overly cautious but is never really afraid/intimidated/pressured. Even after you take the first stock.

Basically, you defeated yourself. The sheik player does nothing outstanding and just kinda lets you auto-pilot into his edge guarding. I think the sheik player was pretty smart with his spacing, for the most part.


for all your ability to dash wave land cancel hop you don't have a good style for tournament play. At least not at the moment. If you really want to play in tournament you should really consider this statement. If you just want to have fun/play casually, then by all means.

As a close, more drill, more shine, more drill, more shine. etc. etc.

 

[linkoninja]

Heres a question. I'm not sure if it's a dumb one, but why is Fox considered a more-technical character than Falco? Waveshines are used by both, but I think Fox uses it more/has more practical uses for the move. Obviously both characters SHFFL a lot, and as far as shield pressure goes it seems about the same. Apart from Drill-Shines I don't see how Fox is more technical

 

[Brookman]

fox has a 3 frame jump while falco has a 5 or so. Fox has a faster/longer dash which makes that more difficult to control. I'd say that's the basis. His down air is multi-hit which i suppose contributes.

 

[Strong Badam]

Thanks for the advice guys! I'll try to take this information and apply it to my playstyle. I'm getting some Mew2King training next weekend so hopefully that'll help as well. I suppose I just don't respond well to tourney pressure in Singles quite yet (likely due to a lack of tournament experience) even though I'm generally fine in Doubles. I think I was more just intimidated by Sinister (he almost made it to Winner's Finals in a close 2-1 set with Jace) and I'm not all too good at the Sheik match-up so I just fell back on sh nair spam :V

 

[Sinji]

Fox is a faster character (obviously) so it requires more reflexes to perform with fox. So yea fox is more technical.

 

[unknown522]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weKgvlARW5s
help me raynex I suck and I need help

I know you're asking for raynex's help, but I watched the first 10 seconds so far, and I saw him dash attack you at 0%. Even when that hits and you don't CC it, you can punish it with a shine.

edit: Watched the whole set now and some points I'd like to make.

- Your opponent approaches badly a lot. You can shield grab him for a lot of his crap. Aerials, d-smashes (though you can't really grab that, but WD oos -> shine, or if he isn't spaced you can u-smash oos).

- You also sidestep too much, and look like you don't have much control over fox. It leads into you getting hit while you're DDing or throwing out aerials.

I think I was more just intimidated by Sinister (he almost made it to Winner's Finals in a close 2-1 set with Jace) and I'm not all too good at the Sheik match-up so I just fell back on sh nair spam :V

aww man. I feel bad for Jace when we played in R3 pools at Pound 4.

He's a nice guy though.

 

[FoxLisk]

strongbad: you appear to choose at random when to approach. it's pretty suboptimal. also you didnt 'fall back on sh nair spam.' you hardly sh naired at all. also you mostly sh naired when you were at the perfect spacing to get outprioritized. you fell back on usmash spam, which is just... not good shield pressure, for one thing, and also requires too much commitment to be solid as an approach unless it's an infrequent mixup.

 

[unknown522]

you and ryans fox, when you guys actually combo. that and armadas combo game on sheik.

my fox combos are pretty lol. They never get recorded though.

Dem Raynex combos though...mmmm.


edit: Yo Lovage, did you get on that super meat boy yet?

 

[Sinji]

I love comboing sheik. Nair>utilt>Nair

 

[KirbyKaze]

My Sheik is like really bad right now. She's hideously out of shape. Too many sweets lately.

 

[Brookman]

just go to yoshi's story, i hear that's bowsers best stage.

 

[JPOBS]

if its good for bowser then imagine what good chars can do!

 

[Sinji]

I learned that if a falco nairs on the top platform and lands on a different platform you can nair oos before the reach the other platform.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

orly? I nair/bair oos all the time when falco hits my shield early.

 

[Brookman]

I just up smash. No joke

 

[KAOSTAR]

was I the only one who didnt understand what Sinji was trying to say? Cuz I dont get what he means.

 

[PK Webb]

what sinji means i believe is see how dreamland has 3 platforms. well if falco is on the top platform and he is trying to get to one of the platforms below him if you are standing underneath that platform you can nair onto that platform b4 falco gets there

 

[Sinji]

^ yea that was what i was trying to say. the nair can lead to usmash or a utilt. Just trying to find more ways to stack it up (Dr.pp would say).

 

[PK Webb]

also went to a tourney yesterday and was able to keep my techskill up all day and i got 2nd in teams sent jman and alukard into losers (jman was using his secondaries) then in grand finals they beat us. and i got 3rd in singles almost taking two games off jmans fox but he ***** me both games last stock nervous johns lol

 

[Brookman]

Congrats Weebbbby

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yea good **** Webbz. and Isnt that why falco should just dair on his way to a platform. Its hard to beat from underneath.

 

[PK Webb]

kaostar i gotta agrre there but bair trades if u want to trade that is so if u want to challenge it bair is what i suggest

 

[Sinji]

Not in every case koastar. If you get the spacing and angling correct, the dair wont hit you.

 

[PK Webb]

vids plz because if this just doesnt sound right im not saying ur wrong but i really dont see nairs beating dairs too often in this situation

 

[KAOSTAR]

Sinji, yea but u beating falcos dair from underneath with a nair is very unlikely. As a counter I dont think its even possible to beat it, you would have to be more to the side of falco and if u are hitting his feet Id still be nervous he is bout to get an Ez mode auto combo. And if you hit him right after the dair, then its not even the same situation, effectively you just hit falco while he was standing there doing nothing. I dont recommend you even try it. Im saying you are wrong lol.

I completely agree with T Webb that bair is the best option to handle falco from underneath.

Edit: lol at ye old Koastar typo

 

[Sinji]

I agree when you said if you nair from the side it will work. thats why i stated that the angle and the spacing is important.

 

[KAOSTAR]

When you agreed with T webb, who "clarified" what you said, he clearly stipulated fox being underneath the platform.

From the side is probably a trade at best(hitting falcos feet), you have to come down on falco with your nair aka hit above hit hitbox in order for that to work. Being under a platform I recommend bair or running away and lasering/getting on the same level or above. Youre not gonna beat falcos dair from underneath with a nair under any circumstances.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Webb i challenge you to a text color match

edit- nvm mines a cooler color :D

 

[FoxLisk]

I completely agree with T Webb that bair is the best option to handle falco from underneath.

i think moving out of the way is better

 

[KAOSTAR]

Well, I meant if u are gonna try to get at him from underneath. If u have falco on BF high percent or something and he is at the edge of a side platform Ill prob take my chances with the bair to edgeguard. But yea "running away and lasering/getting on the same level or above" in most cases is the safest option.

 

[JPOBS]

why the hell is everyone typing in colors.

 

[Sinji]

I guess your right camping lasers is the best option.

 

[RaynEX]

i think moving out of the way is better

Agreed.

Platforms:

If the Falco likes to SH aerial unoccupied platforms, wait until he lands/misses and punish his lag with uair/bair depending on percent.

No platforms:

-DD grab was made for this ****. Missed dair = 40%+ grab combos

-Utilt has the potential to cleanly beat dairs coming from above, if timed correctly.

-Usmash isn't as reliable, but combos well off of traded hits so don't count it out. Utilt should be your primary choice if you ever plan on beating it clean. Less lag = not much risk if you miss.

 

[FoxLisk]

Kaostar: yes. I'm not actually disagreeing with you, just saying that you're stating a corner case. If falco is at high percent it's totally legit to try to trade a bair with a dair and kill him. And in those situations where you do want to challenge his dair from below, bair is your best bet. I just want to clarify for anyone new who might read this that, in general, you're better off getting out of the way.

RaynEX: utilt does in fact beat dair but it's pretty rough to time it in my experience. If the falco's on a platform above you and can drop through at any time I wouldn't rely on it. Trading usmash is good though, especially at high percents. If you can do it consistently then hell yes go for it but it seems like a risky strat to recommend in general.

Also since no one's mentioned it: if falco drops through platforms with aerials, just shield. He's likely to hit your shield high and let you shield grab. Tilt your shield up for extra points.

edit:

Sinji: No. Don't laser camp falco. He has better lasers. You just want to be at or above his level. If he's on a platform, wait for him to get down or interrupt his movement from platform to platform or get on another platform or the top platform. None of that requires lasering, it's just good positioning.