Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Strong Badam]

LMAO JPOBS be trollin'

 

[Tomacawk]

I'm pretty sure ASAP bair refers to autocancel bair

 

[JPOBS]

As soon as possible ...

yea, Aerial stall and then punish as soon as possible. capitalize.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I'm pretty sure ASAP bair refers to autocancel bair

then why give it a confusing abbreviation that has no correlation to auto cancelling?

actually i guess it would have correlation since to auto cancel you gotta do the aerial asap.

that's what i thought he meant by asap atleast

 

[Strong Badam]

3 frame window for auto-cancel SH Bair
I AM SO USEFUL

 

[makoforce]

Eggm camps a lot.

I dont know any other fox mains that camps the most like Eggm.

most definately m2k if you classify him as a main

 

[Sinji]

most definately m2k if you classify him as a main

Eggm camped the whole set against Kage at Apex. it was so gay but thats how it goes.

M2k. i dont know. il watch some vids to confirm that.

 

[RaynEX]

Trahh:

-Peach has problems chasing you on platforms and can't effectively get you down. You have no real reason to throw yourself into her blender of moves unless you are losing. The majority of the time you got that great positioning, you threw it away by running off and completely missing your target. Time on platforms in this match-up is time you can use to scout openings and make sure you LAND HITS, because against Peach (good ones especially) it's really difficult to land them. FCs are a *****. My advice would be to be more patient, and stop SHing off platforms with badly placed nairs (which can be CCed), and bairs which miss completely. Pick the right moment to strike.

-I disagree with Foxlisk about your shield pressure game. Very early in the match your opponent blocked both your aerial AND shine before shield-grabbing. This continued throughout the set without fail. This tells you your opponent has the patience to wait until after the shine to grab. But you didn't use that predictability to your advantage. You can't afford to be grabbed vs. many of the top tiers as Fox. You should have taken notice and stopped wave-shining into her to for pressure (which is a bad thing to do in general). Start JCing moves out of your shine! Spotting these habits early in a match is absolutely CRUCIAL when trying to mow opponents down with shield pressure. See how they react to what you do then CHANGE IT. You need to work on that.

-On Yoshi's you waveland onto the side platforms from the edge too much. Remember, you don't have invincibility once you fall off them. When you're in a bad position and trying to get onto the stage, forget about attacking. There are times to attack, and there are times to recover. When you mix the two it doesn't always work in your favour. Wait till you get back into good positioning before you mount an offense. Imagine you're a wounded soldier lying on the ground, then you instantly rise...only to run directly into open cannon fire without a second thought. Not so smart, right?

-6:00: d.i. onto the platform PLEASE, or face being CGed by someone better.
-7:48: Nice waveshine combo, but don't pause once you grab. It gives your opponent more time to d.i.

-You press so many buttons, and in your case I don't think its a good thing. Most of the time you have no good reason to. You attack into open air, shine for no reason, and go for bairs that have no chance of hitting. Concentrate your effort into doing things only when you need to and not just because.

lol that Peach got ***** tho, good stuff

 

[Sinji]

A question. Can you waveshine combo Zelda?

 

[RaynEX]

A question. Can you waveshine combo Zelda?

Yes.

The more important question: What made you think you couldn't?

 

[Strong Badam]

Zelda has IIRC 35 frames of stun from fresh shine. +1 for electric hitlag, -2 for waiting for jump, -3 for jumpsquat, -10 for airdodge. you're +21.

 

[FoxLisk]

Trahh:

-I disagree with Foxlisk

a) listen to him he's better than me

b) im not sure what he actually disagreed on, i was probably just unclear. but still. his advice is probably better than mine.

raynEX:

what did I say that you acutally disagreed with? All I said was that he had the technical proficiency to good shield pressure and needed to space it better - is your disagreement in that he also needs to make better decisions? If so, I agree 100% and just failed to explain that properly, and if there's something else, please explain for my (and others') edification.

 

[unknown522]

lol Tristan is awesome.

 

[Sinji]

Yes.

The more important question: What made you think you couldn't?

I always thought Zelda was just different from the rest of the characters.

 

[RaynEX]

a) listen to him he's better than me

b) im not sure what he actually disagreed on, i was probably just unclear. but still. his advice is probably better than mine.

raynEX:

what did I say that you acutally disagreed with? All I said was that he had the technical proficiency to good shield pressure and needed to space it better - is your disagreement in that he also needs to make better decisions? If so, I agree 100% and just failed to explain that properly, and if there's something else, please explain for my (and others') edification.

I'll clarify.

your shield pressure game is solid technically

This was the only part of your post I disagreed with. I understand "solid technically" to be
proficiency in technical skill, move selection and overall consistency.

Trahh's technical skill is displaced; his energy is being spent in all the wrong places. He can waveshine, great. But he did not JC out of his shine a single time. I'm sure we can agree that JCing OOS is at least a prerequisite for "technically solid shield pressure". He was waveshining into Peach's shield as if the shield was Link and every level was FD. All that nonsense can be easily shieldgrabbed. Hell, nair OOS would have beaten it.There is so much more to pressuring a shield than 'straight waveshining', and FH dairing, which were the only two types of "pressure" I noticed. I thought that when Trahh read "your shield pressure game is solid technically", he would take it as an indication that what he was doing was fine. Especially since you didn't touch upon the fact that he lacked a rudimentary "aerial -> shine -> JC -> repeat" game.

I want to let him know there is much more you can do to open up an opponent once they start blocking. Doubly so if he knows the times they want to shieldgrab. He seems to have the techskill, and his opponents are giving him ample opportunity - now he just needs to take advantage of both.

 

[KAOSTAR]

OH lol u guys mean Profit bairs....

Strongbad-Shine is electric? as in you recover from hitlag b4 them

 

[Brookman]

I'm pretty sure ASAP bair refers to autocancel bair

full jump, wait x frames, c stick back air (or A input.)

It can be used facing in either direction, read: situationally

it does indeed auto cancel, even with a late fast falll. The beauty in this comes in your ability to shine. ohly siht. Full jump ~ASAP down air also auto cancels, tho I'm not sure where the last hit comes out precisely. Lately, when I'm in really close to people I short hop up air (ASAP, lol) and it's been eating grabs in a funny way. *note, I'm not hitting their shield and I will aim to have the strong hitbox (the second) coming out as close to them/their shield as possible.

Using block for tight spacing is SO much better than wavedashing. Shield can be used to make a ghetto pivot, tho your options are more limited since you're now in your shield.

Try playing without wavedashing at all and rely on your dash/shield as much as possible.


I'm developing that airborn jc shine waveland a little by simply stalling in the air slightly. That way, gravity aids in closing the gap to the ground and the doublejumpairdodge to waveland is much smoother. Even if I don't go airborne, I'm able to account for the fact that I'm not going airborne at all and ground wavedash out or short hop. I'm ****ing around with grounded double shine sh nair, using anologue, of course.. .. Dunno how I ever thought short hopping with the anologue was challenging. Nair with Z is hella easy too. Although, messing up and throwing out a grab is not the greatest.

Referring back to the "retreat short hop nair vs. sheilds" I tried out both nair and bair in that situation and I had more luck with back air against shieks grab, the spacing is just naturally better although Nair mostly worked fine too. if you shffl ASAP you can usually get down/forward tilt out to beat the grab. If you're slick you can just shine the grab hit box though. Side step is always an option. could shffl the first back air into another retreating back air or a retreating nair. . stationary down air spacing...

Really pushing my fast falls, L cancels, and dash spacing beyond my comfortable zone is challenging and entertaining. Ideally, you are always playing 60 frames a second, right?

Going back to Webb's post, I got some time to think about tech skill johns since I hadn't played before today in a while, and it really comes down to deciding what the most important tricks that lead to the most efficient collecting of stocks. Even if the match comes down to 1 stock vs. 1 stock, as long as you can gain control and keep that control, whether in a neutral/combo/tech situation is what it comes down to and that goes so far into reading your opponent and then reading your opponents reads on your reads and so forth.


One thing I routinely **** up is JC up smash. I use control stick and c stick and I just haven't gotten that back yet at all. It's one of the most inconsistent things about my fox, and that reflects in my gameplay as I am less prone to use it. I'm trying to get my JC and pivot up smash into die hard mode. That and my drills

More down air, more shine, more down air, more shine, more down air, more shine. more lasers, more shine, more back air, more up smash. Never underestimate the dash attack.


I'm starting to like fox's throw vs. . . .everyone but fox/falco less and less. I'd rather do everything in my power to keep my opponent grounded until I can throw them off the stage for shining/edge hogging or onto a platform to make my up smash better (read: kill sooner). If there are no platforms you're on FD, which means you're probably doing it wrong (or in Japan)


Up/side B are the ****s
/end

 

[Tomacawk]

strongbad, fox can sh auto cancel bair??
I don't believe it man....no way. Falco can and the timing is fast enough, but fox falls so much faster

 

[Sinji]

I got everything down with falco shield pressure. I just nervous about his shine>grab. What should i do?

Any advice.

 

[Strong Badam]

Strongbad-Shine is electric? as in you recover from hitlag b4 them

Yes. Hence the bluish graphic effect on the opponent when they're in hitstun.

strongbad, fox can sh auto cancel bair??
I don't believe it man....no way. Falco can and the timing is fast enough, but fox falls so much faster

Wowwwww. I thought I was in the Falco thread. wut's wrong with me -.-
No, he can't, his gravity attribute is too high to be airborne long enough.

 

[Brookman]

I got everything down with falco shield pressure. I just nervous about his shine>grab. What should i do?

Any advice.

jc shine, roll, sidestep

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yea, Ive seen the bluish whatever, I guess I just never really thought of electricity as being an element. Id only really thought about normal, flame, and dark flame. Fire attacks melt ice, Lightnight I guess have reduced hitstun for the user, and dark flame is useless...most of the time u get hit by attacks that you cannot see lol.

Im gonna try to get some fox vids up soon for some critiques. I gotta put some more work into my Fox.

 

[L__]

I got everything down with falco shield pressure. I just nervous about his shine>grab. What should i do?

Any advice.

jc shine oos is the most magical of all options in ever for all eternity because his moveset is broken

(in theory)

 

[Brookman]

(in theory)

 

[L__]

unfortunately we cannot play Fox to his full capabilities

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

There is so much more to pressuring a shield than 'straight waveshining', and FH dairing, which were the only two types of "pressure" I noticed.

did you really just simplify my 3 matches of shield pressure to 'only waveshining and FH dairs'?

i'm aware my shield pressuring is not great at all, but i know i do more than that lol.

ಠ_ಠ

 

[Lovage]

yeah using auto cancel aerials to bait stuff and then punish with shine/utilt/whatever is a really good thing to learn and will work on a lot of ppl

when u start playing super pros tho it's rarely gonna work and ur gonna get punished for it a lot. i consider it a very strong mid-level tactic, but something you're gonna have to shed once you start playing better people



edit: aaaaand u guys should stop creaming yourselves about jc shine oos LOL it's not that good imho

 

[Silent Wolf]

sup oscar

and toph

 

[unknown522]

edit: aaaaand u guys should stop creaming yourselves about jc shine oos LOL it's not that good imho

I love you!

 

[Sinji]

unfortunately we cannot play Fox to his full capabilities

Who said we couldn't use fox to his full capabilities.

that same attitude is the reason why fox ppl get low ranking in tourneys.

You gotta have faith in your character, or else the character will fail along with you.

Edit: Great match oscar putting peach in her place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-ECrf1juD0&feature=feedu

 

[JPOBS]

lovage, your vs ICs game makes me happy in the pants.

 

[Divinokage]

Haha, seems like he understands the spirit a little bit. =)

 

[RaynEX]

did you really just simplify my 3 matches of shield pressure to 'only waveshining and FH dairs'?

i'm aware my shield pressuring is not great at all, but i know i do more than that lol.

ಠ_ಠ

You did do more than waveshine and FH dair, but those are the two methods of pressure you used the most. Also, the other things you were doing weren't as good. All I'm saying is, when a Fox doesn't JC out of their shine once, you know there is room for improvement. You have potential Trahh.

It saddens me that all you pulled from my analysis was that one quote you disagreed with.

You're welcome?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

idk i guess i just took it super negative lol. i've always appreciated the advice from you and the others that consistently give it, it's a big part of the foundation of my fox right now. just cuhz i quoted that alone doesn't mean i didn't read every other word in the post!

 

[Strong Badam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weKgvlARW5s
help me raynex I suck and I need help

 

[JPOBS]

you look like someone who doesn't play fox very often.

-your approach was WAY to linear. this was the biggest issue. 99% of the time to ran straight at him an shffl nair. You also undershot this nair a lot and didn't take into account spacing at all. A better player would DD grab you to hell and back.
mix up your approach with running shines, platform drops, DD shenanigans, dairs and other things. running nair isn't the end all.

- you crouch canceled but didn't shine or do anything productive.

-don't spotdodge so much. You got away with it at first but then he just started to downsmash a lot more and you got hit by the later hits.

work on obvious tech skill weaknesses, move faster oos (especially on shielding a downsmash), punish harder, work it better, makes us faster, builds us stronger...

 

[Strong Badam]

i've been essentially maining fox for almost a year you hurted my feelings

 

[JPOBS]

lol sorry don't take it personally

 

[Druggedfox]

There are people who've been playing fox for like 8 years who still don't look like they play fox >_>

It's a legitimate issue a lot of fox mains have; everybody says fox is broken, but the vast majority of fox mains don't even truly understand what it is that makes fox so good. I haven't seen the matches, but that just reminded me of that thought which I had meant to bring up at some point for fox boards to discuss/think about.

 

[Divinokage]

Maybe because they are not broken.. anything can happen in tournament. Also, everyone knows the matchup as well.