KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Yea, I def be goin for that **** 2.
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
it's really good.
but yeah, i really don't recommend against waveshining marth more than once, whether or not it's guaranteed. imo there's always better stuff to do >_>
at least on FD lol
but yeah, i really don't recommend against waveshining marth more than once, whether or not it's guaranteed. imo there's always better stuff to do >_>
at least on FD lol
joeplicate
Smash Master
vs marth and doc, i just do an extra dash after the waveshine
so that's
drill
shine
wd
dash forward
jc upsmash
****
also i thought of a SUPER COOL TRICK today
on stages like battlefield, fOd, and dreamland, the top platform is high and just out of reach. usually i'd just try to hit up airs and hope that worked, but that's a really inconsistent follow up.
instead, if you hit them onto top platty and you don't have time to waveland on and shield, do a fullhop up and stall in your shine. wait for them to do something:
if they stand up, jump out and upair/bair
if they don't do anything, jump up and dair reset, or hit them with a fast bair
if they roll to the side, waveland onto the platform and UPSMASH!!
there's so much cool **** you can do. the only problem is if they don't do anything and you're too low in your shine, so they can do a getup attack if you try to double jump up and hit them out of the lying-down animation
i'm gonna try to work this trick so hard, it seems awesome lol
so that's
drill
shine
wd
dash forward
jc upsmash
****
also i thought of a SUPER COOL TRICK today
on stages like battlefield, fOd, and dreamland, the top platform is high and just out of reach. usually i'd just try to hit up airs and hope that worked, but that's a really inconsistent follow up.
instead, if you hit them onto top platty and you don't have time to waveland on and shield, do a fullhop up and stall in your shine. wait for them to do something:
if they stand up, jump out and upair/bair
if they don't do anything, jump up and dair reset, or hit them with a fast bair
if they roll to the side, waveland onto the platform and UPSMASH!!
there's so much cool **** you can do. the only problem is if they don't do anything and you're too low in your shine, so they can do a getup attack if you try to double jump up and hit them out of the lying-down animation
i'm gonna try to work this trick so hard, it seems awesome lol
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
haha some guy was talking about that a bunch of pages ago and everyone ignored him. and i thought to myself "wow, that sounds really cool! i'll be trying that out the next time i play friendlies with platforms."
i have yet to play friendlies outside of FD, so i haven't gotten to try it LOL
but yeah
people should talk about it so i remember to do it next time LOL
i have yet to play friendlies outside of FD, so i haven't gotten to try it LOL
but yeah
people should talk about it so i remember to do it next time LOL
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Waveshine usmash always works on Marth. Just make sure your WDs are long+fast enough, and that you dash JC usmash after the waveshines. If you were already moving towards Marth when you hit the dair/nair, you won't need to run and JC - just walk.
If they SDI the shine you'll have to run and JC everytime though.
If they SDI the shine you'll have to run and JC everytime though.
Silent Wolf
...
Tomacawk
Smash Master
that was me toph. Surprised you remembered, seems like nobody even read what I was saying.
I remember thaT!!
Otto, that peach player was really bad. gj ****** him on brinstar, though.
Winston
Smash Master
This reminds me though, why can't we just do this when they land on bottom platforms when we're standing on the ground below them? Fox has an extra 3 frames on his jump from the ground as opposed to his DJ, but it seems like it should still be doable.
Most Foxes (including the really good ones) seem to guess when the opponent is hit on a platform and I'm not sure that we need to.
If it's been in the metagame so long, how come no one does it? I've wattched probably half of the melee videos there are on youtube, and the only time of seen it was when lambchops was playing as fox in a friendly. You act like it's in the metagame, but no one actually does it..
Lol I hope you're kidding. Bladewise is one of my favorite peaches. So fun to watch. Too much dsmash on platforms though.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
I think there are better options if they land on a middle platform. There may be better options for the top platform, but not to the extent where a mixup chase like this is actually obsolete.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
You don't need to do this for bottom platforms. You can easily full hop fast fall bair/nair/uair and reach them in time.
If they land on the top platform, you may not be able to reach them in time with a waveland to grab or usmash. You can doublejump past them with a bair, but you land slowly and can't really follow it up. The height of the platform makes upairs (and therefore, combos into early deaths off the top) nearly impossible to hit before they can shield. By shine stalling under it, you control your jump height and can land really fast after your aerial; you can hit an upair; you can react to their decision (tech, get up attack, etc); and you can always waveland and get a grab if they tech and shield.
Winston
Smash Master
it's not a "mixup chase". It's a method of reacting to all of their teching options on the platform. What part of it involves mixups?
Of course, but that usually covers 2-3 out of the 4 options. I'm saying, why can't we cover all of them? Is the 3 frames on his standing jump really the difference? If it's not clear, I'm talking about just standing under where they land on the platform and reacting.
If you're saying that full hop fastfall aerial allows you time to still get their techrolls, I think it gives you enough time to hit their close techroll, but not their far one. I've never seen a fox do an aerial on a platform and still have time to cover the techroll to the far side before.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
Aim for the middle of the platform. Drift towards the direction they tech--bair if they go behind you, nair if they go in front. you should be able to cover it all.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
if you shine below them on the platform and wait, you will slowly fall. The person on the timer is you. If they lay there they will get the chance to safely get up. To counter this, you might shine to show them it then immediately jump and hit them. To counter that, they might immediately get up attack or roll which will hit you instead.
Mixups.
Winston
Smash Master
It's such a low reward punish though. I usually see foxes go for uair/drill reset instead since it leads to more hits. (I mean at low percents).
Eh, I thought about the frame data again and it's probably a couple frames too slow to hit the tech in place with on reaction. So never mind
Oh, I misread what Joe was talkin about originally. I thought he meant shinestall at the same time that they tech so you can react. I see what you mean.
Doser
Smash Ace
This may be slightly off of the current discussion, but when you are doing a running up smash after a wave dash or what have you, are you supposed to jump cancel it or dash cancel it by crouching?
I've always done jc up smashes but was just curious if it mattered.
I've always done jc up smashes but was just curious if it mattered.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
JC usmashes will be faster and grant you more distance.
Winston
Smash Master
I don't think JCing is any faster, but the key thing is that you can't dash cancel by crouching during your initial dash. So when you're waveshine -> usmashing marth, you have to JC, not dash cancel.
PB&J
Smash Hero
replicate- its seems like we have similar tactics when it comes to platforms..find me at pound 5 and we must trade secrets(i have this automatic 0-69 percent combo on marth on any platform stage..ill show u)
Doser
Smash Ace
I've been trying out jcing up smash with the y button and c-stick, it doesn't seem that awkward because you just shift your hand down a bit.
Has anyone else tried jcing without the control stick?
Has anyone else tried jcing without the control stick?
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Yes, I always claw Y and c-stick up. I originally got this method from m2k (who does the same thing, except with X) and then a few months later from a Fox named Souten in Japan, who convinced me that it's way more consistent.
And it is. I like, never miss running jc usmashes anymore. I used to miss them a lot at the most random times (like, I'd be fully warmed up and still miss them on occasion).
Btw, pbnj what is your combo on marth?
And it is. I like, never miss running jc usmashes anymore. I used to miss them a lot at the most random times (like, I'd be fully warmed up and still miss them on occasion).
Btw, pbnj what is your combo on marth?
PB&J
Smash Hero
im bad at explaining combos ..ill have to show u,but it does have to do with nair grab and dair pivot grab..ill try posting a vid soon doing it..im going to be playing m2k this week so ill just do it on him(again) and post it
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
About the whole waveland platform tech chase thing. I should point out something that I believe many people know but maybe not.
If you have your opponent in upsmash or dsmash kill % and would rather take the risk of trying to kill them outright rather than aerial and go for the edgeguard this is useful.
If they land on a platform and roll in either direction, by just wavelanding towards them in general will push them off the platform (holding forward in shield can stop this, but again this is situational). You can easily upsmash/dsmash this, especially if they fall off the platform backwards (a lot of players if you push them off forwards will falling or dbj bair, the dbj tends to get hit by the smash though).
This is pretty handy and generally difficult to punish as long as you hit them or their shield, as even if you don't push them off the platform initially the shield stun will cause them to fall off the platform after the smash.
This is really just mix-up and not really something you can plan for. But it's something to keep in mind when the situation arises in a match.
I often abuse this push off platforms or edges of stages frequently as I'm just aware of it. You don't have to smash, you can run off platform (pushing them off in the process) and aerial, for luls you can run off (pushing them off) fastfall shine wavedash to stuff (unless they are a fast faller they will still be in the air after the wavedash).
Just throwing this out there for the players looking for new things to try out.
If you have your opponent in upsmash or dsmash kill % and would rather take the risk of trying to kill them outright rather than aerial and go for the edgeguard this is useful.
If they land on a platform and roll in either direction, by just wavelanding towards them in general will push them off the platform (holding forward in shield can stop this, but again this is situational). You can easily upsmash/dsmash this, especially if they fall off the platform backwards (a lot of players if you push them off forwards will falling or dbj bair, the dbj tends to get hit by the smash though).
This is pretty handy and generally difficult to punish as long as you hit them or their shield, as even if you don't push them off the platform initially the shield stun will cause them to fall off the platform after the smash.
This is really just mix-up and not really something you can plan for. But it's something to keep in mind when the situation arises in a match.
I often abuse this push off platforms or edges of stages frequently as I'm just aware of it. You don't have to smash, you can run off platform (pushing them off in the process) and aerial, for luls you can run off (pushing them off) fastfall shine wavedash to stuff (unless they are a fast faller they will still be in the air after the wavedash).
Just throwing this out there for the players looking for new things to try out.
Doser
Smash Ace
Yea man I agree with the claw for the jc upsmash, it is so much easier to be consistent with, and it feels more natural to me.
Fortress | Sveet
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Since when did "double jump" get abreviated dbj?
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Usmash ***** lololol
unknown522
Some guy
go to midwest <_<
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
LMFAO
but yeah. partly because of FD only making it extremely viable, marths over here all play super-fundamental and they just dashdance to dtilt, and try to CC stuff all day. it's kind of annoying hahah
great info. I gotta try this **** out too.
Kanelol
Smash Lord
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
posted it a few pages back, but here
it's a matter of spacing yourself outside falco's cc shine
retreating bairs are good
come in when falco tries to laser and you're close
hit him before he lasers
once falco shields / doesn't have a laser out
thats when you go aggro
otherwise it's alot of full hopping
i also really like overshooting a dair with fox
just watch jman play any falco LOL youre set
it's a matter of spacing yourself outside falco's cc shine
retreating bairs are good
come in when falco tries to laser and you're close
hit him before he lasers
once falco shields / doesn't have a laser out
thats when you go aggro
otherwise it's alot of full hopping
i also really like overshooting a dair with fox
just watch jman play any falco LOL youre set
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
this is off topic.
if i hit someone's shield with late nair to shine to early dair, can i safely get behind them during my dair hits?
basically shffl over their shield while the dair hits are keeping them from moving.
if this works, would they be able to wd away? if so, i get nothing out of it. i'm picturing against marth, but idk if it matters.
sorry if i failed hard at explaining this.
if i hit someone's shield with late nair to shine to early dair, can i safely get behind them during my dair hits?
basically shffl over their shield while the dair hits are keeping them from moving.
if this works, would they be able to wd away? if so, i get nothing out of it. i'm picturing against marth, but idk if it matters.
sorry if i failed hard at explaining this.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
Sounds legit to me. But I'd be worried about a buffer roll.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
if the worst case scenario is them rolling, then YAAAAY!!!!
lol i only started doing this because i have trouble consistently doing early retreating shffl nairs in my shield pressure with fox. dair's are easier for me. idk why, i'm dumb?
lol i only started doing this because i have trouble consistently doing early retreating shffl nairs in my shield pressure with fox. dair's are easier for me. idk why, i'm dumb?
voorhese
Smash Master
i prefer late aerial into shine reverse then into sh bair (fade away), just so many things it has over the dair/nair
1. autocancels (faster to punish or react if shine hit etc)
2. ur already turned around so u can abuse ur ridiculous uptilt/zone bairs
and 3. if the bair where to hit them then it would send them further than if a nair/dair did...
i had a huge *** list on why its better, but i cant remember them all
the only disadvantage i can see is that it takes a split second longer to turn around (idk the frames but i would say somewhere like 1-3) so u can get shined oos easier or w.e naired by peach w.e
JPOBS
Smash Hero
lol for some reason i used to have a similar problem.
i used to endlessly shffl shine->dairs. but with nair i cud only do 2-3 before i acidentally full hop.
haha. now im more consistent with the nair pressauwh as well.
i dont know what it is but i feel you on that.