Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[joeplicate]

so i tried messing around with that trick a little bit today



you have to be playing really, really fast for it to be any good. it's not a very useful way to tech-chase normally--you're better off just double jumping up and wavelanding onto the platform.

i think it would still be useful if your opponent is waiting to get up for a really long time, and then you could bait their roll/getup attack, or upair/dair if they're still lying down.

to do this in a reliable way, where you can cover every option, though, you have to be really fast and super focused on platform follow-ups. i still think it's possible, though.

but if you try to do it as a tech chase onto top platforms, they'll tech in place (which you can cover with upair) and shield, then the best you can do is dair their shield, or try to shield pressure it in some other way, which doesn't work very well.


oh wellz, i think it's still something really cool to mess around with.




and about the "scoops," where you push them off the platform in their shield and upsmash, i figure at low percents it's a good idea to walk off and shine them towards the edge of the stage. that way you can potentially get a shinespike, or at the least gain a positional advantage. (this would be better because you can't follow up on a grab/upsmash at the edge of a platform anyways, meaning there's no reason to do it unless it kills).


what do y'all think about the sheik matchup?
and plz don't say anything stupid >_>

 

[Brookman]

dash dance for ftilt. Shine out of shield if they try to up tilt on you. shield grab dash attack. laser. drill shine up smash. drill shine up throw.

edge hog always. learn to shine the first half of the up be. don't get gimped. don't get grabbed. platforms, platforms, platforms.

 

[JPOBS]

make her approach cuz she's not that good at it. if you are forced to approach, it'll be an uphil battle.

if you ever get her above you, pressure her with bairs/upairs make it hell to get back down cuz her downwards priority is garbage.

cc everything. di away. stuff brookman said.

 

[joeplicate]

could you explain why those things work, or why they are good?

i agree with always edgehogging sheik, but like "don't get grabbed" is kind of awful advice lol. i also disagree with using platforms because it severely limits your approach options.

from a platform (running around on side/top platforms), you can:
bair
nair
or dair into shine > more combos

so unless you wanna camp a lot, dair is like your only approach....

plus, if sheik catches you running around up there, you'll almost always get pushed to the edge (depending on percentage). her upair will lead to a combo, she can throw out slaps to spam/pressure, and bair catches jumps like crazy.

at that point, you're either with your back to the edge against sheik (bad), or grabbing the edge (also bad), or off the stage without a jump (REALLY BAD).


"dash dance for ftilt", "shine oos uptilt," "shield grab dash attacks" are all like common sense answers too. but you're not always in a position where these responses are guaranteed, either--you can't shine oos uptilt if you're not in your shield/not spaced right/if she's poking through a platform, dash attacks that go through you can't be shieldgrabbed, etc.

what are your real thoughts about the matchup, in terms of spacing, when you should pressure, when to go for a grab vs nair to follow up, and other things like that?

i feel that fox is really good at controlling space with a long dash dance, about 2 nairs lengths away, and if you have good shield pressure, then it's very effective at times, but you shouldn't make it your main focus. playing up-close with sheik isn't always what you want imo, but if you try to camp lasers/platforms then i feel you squander a big advantage that fox has with the threat of a constant approach.

why does sheik **** on fox so hard when he's in his shield right in front of her? can you counter spaced sh fairs on your shield?

what can fox do more on the defensive end? maybe have a perfect out of shield game, with drill > combo, or really fast bairs/nairs out. my main question!!

sorry for such a long post haha, but that's really the kind of discussion i'm trying to get started here, other than just "shoot lasers, don't mess up tech skill"


edit: jpobs, how would you explain making sheik approach? i feel like a good sheik basically won't approach at a bad time, unless they see a guaranteed grab/dash attack, or they'll just take space away from you with autocanceled fairs or safe ftilts or something

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Be careful on platforms, tho'.

>_> Sheik can go through 'em with tilts (utilt, spaced ftilt) and aerials (pretty much all of them).

Although you are Fox...

Smooth Criminal

 

[KirbyKaze]

ignore post

 

[unknown522]

make her approach cuz she's not that good at it. if you are forced to approach, it'll be an uphil battle.

if you ever get her above you, pressure her with bairs/upairs make it hell to get back down cuz her downwards priority is garbage.

cc everything. di away. stuff brookman said.

are you drunk?

 

[KirbyKaze]

are you drunk?

are you?

 

[unknown522]

naw yo. Sober all day.

 

[KirbyKaze]

you're an excellent actor then

 

[omgwtfToph]

I'm pretty bad at explaining my thoughts on the sheik matchup, but I really, really enjoy it. So I'll give it a shot >_>

I actually have no qualms about just running away and lasering and making the sheik do stuff. I hear a lot of talk like, it's bad to run away from Sheik too much cuz you get boxed in by the ledge, and you should always try to approach her, but I think the way you're supposed to camp Sheik is a mixture of running away and regaining center stage when she tries to come in. So it's kind of like fighting Peach. I basically don't like being "up close" with Sheik; even though I have CC at low percents (you can CC -> running usmash against Sheik's ftilt, btw), I am much more comfortable just playing at a distance where I'm not trying to out-tilt her.

So basically, I'll kind of stay about half a screen away from her and watch what she's doing. If she comes in and tries to put fairs near where I'm going to be, I'll try to look for a hole and nair my way in or something. Or I'll try to find a good time to full hop over her and use a bair. Kind of like finding a way through Falcon's nairs. I make getting a waveshine my priority in this matchup, and I'll typically waveshine to the ledge -> dsmash at anything besides low percents, which often leads to kills if it knocks them far enough away that they have to use their doublejump and up-B.

Basically, I think Sheik has better hitboxes, and a better tilt game, but Fox has better mobility and gets to set the pace in the matchup. I try to nullify Sheik's tilt game advantage by staying out of that range, and only attacking when I think it's really safe.

oh yeah, and I disagree with using the platforms for anything except to escape from, and to annoy Sheik

 

[unknown522]

I've probably said this a bunch of times before but:

IMO, the platforms are better for fox than for sheik. They sometimes let him escape combos (though they extend them sometimes. But it doesn't really matter, because he would be knocked down on the ground anyway.), and they let him get some extended combos sometimes. I also think that he generally moves better with the platforms than she does, since sometimes it's bad for her to be above him.

 

[JPOBS]

are you drunk?

did i say bad things?

 

[Sinji]

Can anybody give advice abt the ganon matchup?

 

[omgwtfToph]

hmm. Don't ever let ganon do his thing. Don't feel fear for a moment - you want to always be putting some kind of pressure on the ganon, be it positional pressure or just simple quick nairs. Ganon doesn't have a good cc game and he doesn't have a good oos game, so once you get the momentum you can keep it for a long time. Try to always see to it that he has to make some sort of tough decision.

a trick I like using against good ganons - baiting his fair or double jump fair with short hop -> waveland back. It's good stuff. He then has to decide whether he wants to jab, ftilt or try to get the **** out of there. Watch his habits after he lands with the fair.

Running away and lasering is good, but only to provoke some sort of reaction. You don't want to be boxed in by the ganon, ever.

 

[PB&J]

shiek shiek shiek

she can be really simple to fight or very difficult(frustrating)

its all about spacing up close like u said. her spaced fair game is really good on fox's shield ,but its not unbeatable..sometimes i just roll away(depending on my stage position)if im close to the ledge,ill wait for the perfect time to get oos without rolling.if u get a chance jump,full jump drill shine her oos when in she is pressuring u.

i feel like im way better at explainijng in person than typing actually because i feel pretty comfortable against any shiek out there(m2k,soft practice) not saying ill beat any shiek but i know alot of tricks that i see people dont usei feel like more people should d tilt shiek more..dtilt is now apart of my shield pressure game. druggedfox would fill u in on that if he were in here.

i feel like if u force her to do certain moves like dsmash or force her to jump u can control her like a puppet. i feel thats what im doing with all match ups..lookijng for certain moves they use/punish with and bait them to do it even more for i can punish them. lambchops told me "make people's good habbits become their bad habbits"

hope that make sense (im better in person i think at explaining)

edit: toph-after playing linguini and chaddd, i feel like ganon does have a good crouch cancel game..he does gay stuff with dtilt and wierd grabs when im behind him aka the butt grab..thats just from my experience though

 

[Brookman]

Everyone who plays against Cfalcon regularly needs to start trying to grab the first hit of his nair if he hits your shield with it.

I'm having mixed results, only cause im spamming it so hard.

 

[Kanelol]

Why can't you buffer grab

:[

 

[Brookman]

in shield> tap c^ then mash/press a

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

isn't that worse than just mashing A because you put your shield down earlier? the grab wont happen until you press A anyways.

 

[Brookman]

c stick buffers jump so you know you'll be leaving the shield as soon as the hit stun is over. It's just a suggestion.

 

[omgwtfToph]

lol wow

in fox dittos, when you have the other fox on the ledge, and assuming the other person isn't used to you doing this (so this is a trick i'd try in a tournament bracket against someone i don't play often), you can hang onto the ledge, wait for him to drill, smash DI (or just ASDI) the drill away from the ledge so that it doesn't combo into shine or grab, and then just dsmash (or fsmash??? idk. or grab, usmash, whatever) for an easy kill lol


edit: and yes, i know someone will bring up "but what if they side+B or just waveland up the ledge or just nair you?" etc.

well yeah it's not gonna work everytime but ... yeah lol, nothing works everytime. besides, ledgehop drill is like, the most common ledgehop aerial

 

[Brookman]

sounds reasonable.

 

[omgwtfToph]

it's good. and it's really gay when it happens to you. >_>; LOL

 

[Winston]

ledgehop drill suuucks... everyone is always trying to bait and **** it >.>

It's so rare that they actually aren't expecting it and it'll hit for real

 

[omgwtfToph]

idk, everybody does it >_>

i think the most underused ledgehop aerial, for how good it is, is ledgehop fair though. you don't have to space it for **** (just go as deep into the stage as possible - this also gives the advantage of being impossible to shieldgrab if the opponent is between where you're gonna land and the ledge), it's really hard (practically impossible) to shine OOS before they hit the ground i.e. between fair kicks, and it has a better hitbox than the drill

 

[RaynEX]

Unknown should be giving better Sheik advice. We've been playing KK for what, 3 years now?

Good pointers to help you get going in the right direction:

While Sheik is dthrow techchasing you, don't tech and SDI up. Good option and sometimes nets you free waveshines.

CC Ftilts into shine or usmash. CC dtilt is great if it works. If it doesn't you just trade CCs until %s get too high, which is dumb.

At 0, Uthrow (no d.i.) utilt is a true combo. Either guess for the DJ and follow with bair/nair and combo on the way down, or utilt/usmash to call the lack of DJ. If Sheik d.i.s either in front or behind you at low percents (under 20), dash SH nair will combo.

If you have the edge and force Sheik to teleport straight up, WD fastfall back onto the ledge instead of hitting her at any percent. It ALWAYS kills.

Running in and CC dtilting at low percents is good to keep her ground game in check. Mix in dash attacks when the percents start to rise for a few guaranteed hits afterward.

If she starts platform camping, laser her - don't chase her. Same goes for edge-camping.

If tries to put up a wall of fair/bair there are a few things you can do. Run under her and pressure from behind, walk directly up to her and trade usmash (at low percents) for a combo, WD directly under her and utilt, etc.

Learn to d.i. dash attacks away. (No one does it)

edit:

i prefer late aerial into shine reverse then into sh bair (fade away), just so many things it has over the dair/nair
1. autocancels (faster to punish or react if shine hit etc)

Fox's bair doesn't auto-cancel, Falco's does. Earliest possible bair during a SH always requires an l-cancel for Fox. The only things he has that auto-cancel in a jump are FH non-FFed Bair and Uair.

 

[Brookman]

I wish you were more active on here RAYNEX!!


I was just thinking to myself how fox has kinda been stagnating (barring the previous tournament of course, which was missing several of todays top players)

I need more activity in my area!!



http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=294092

anybody?

 

[unknown522]

Unknown should be giving better Sheik advice. We've been playing KK for what, 3 years now?

I think I should make a matchup thread or something. I have made write ups about this matchup so many times.

Kinda lazy to dig it up.

 

[Sinji]

lol wow

in fox dittos, when you have the other fox on the ledge, and assuming the other person isn't used to you doing this (so this is a trick i'd try in a tournament bracket against someone i don't play often), you can hang onto the ledge, wait for him to drill, smash DI (or just ASDI) the drill away from the ledge so that it doesn't combo into shine or grab, and then just dsmash (or fsmash??? idk. or grab, usmash, whatever) for an easy kill lol


edit: and yes, i know someone will bring up "but what if they side+B or just waveland up the ledge or just nair you?" etc.

well yeah it's not gonna work everytime but ... yeah lol, nothing works everytime. besides, ledgehop drill is like, the most common ledgehop aerial

sounds like a good strategy.

 

[omgwtfToph]

While Sheik is dthrow techchasing you, don't tech and SDI up. Good option and sometimes nets you free waveshines.

Would you happen to know the exact percent this works at? It doesn't work at 0%, for the record. You will visibly see Fox pop up, indicating that you SDI'd properly, but then Fox will just stand up as if he got jab reset normally anyway. It's lame.

At 0, Uthrow (no d.i.) utilt is a true combo. Either guess for the DJ and follow with bair/nair and combo on the way down, or utilt/usmash to call the lack of DJ. If Sheik d.i.s either in front or behind you at low percents (under 20), dash SH nair will combo.

Do you know if uthrow sh uair is a true combo?

Fox's bair doesn't auto-cancel, Falco's does. Earliest possible bair during a SH always requires an l-cancel for Fox. The only things he has that auto-cancel in a jump are FH non-FFed Bair and Uair.

Not completely sure on uair, but you can fastfall a FH bair and still have it auto cancel.

 

[RaynEX]

I wish you were more active on here RAYNEX!!


I was just thinking to myself how fox has kinda been stagnating (barring the previous tournament of course, which was missing several of todays top players)

I need more activity in my area!!



http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=294092

anybody?

I'm trying to post in here more often. Conversation moves so fast in this thread that it's hard to keep up most times. After a few days pass I'm a bit reluctant to jump into a topic that's 10-15 posts deep. Ya dig?

I'll try to be in here as much as possible. Have to prepare for Pound and get into the smash mindset.

Would you happen to know the exact percent this works at? It doesn't work at 0%, for the record. You will visibly see Fox pop up, indicating that you SDI'd properly, but then Fox will just stand up as if he got jab reset normally anyway. It's lame.



Do you know if uthrow sh uair is a true combo?



Not completely sure on uair, but you can fastfall a FH bair and still have it auto cancel.

-I've got it to work at 10% on multiple occasions, so I usually start there. It would be a good good place to start at even if I'm a bit off, because by the time she gets an aerial -> grab -> dthrow, or needle -> grab > dthrow, you will probably be at 10% or so.

-SH uair is never a true combo on Sheik as far as I'm aware. Unknown uses it a bunch, but that's only because he's guessing for the no DJ on KK's part. As you already know, everything and the moon combos if you can somehow land one. I'd say it's Fox's best low percent combo option vs. Sheik if he can get it. Hard to d.i. left/right at that proximity and percent, always leads to at least two other moves, and the first hit can jump check Sheik - in which case single hit uair -> utilt will combo. If they d.i. left or right after the uthrow you'll have to try something else though.

-Yeah, you're right. Haha...I don't know what I was thinking. It was like 4am when I made the post...yeah that's my excuse. I spam autocancel bair to hell.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

i didn't know fhffbair auto cancels... lesson learned.

who needs shffl when you can fhffac??

 

[(*Jman*)]

up throw up smash when shiek at like 5% or less ***** cause they try to nair out then u can up smash again or up air or bair **** combo then u run and shoot some lasers

o yea 1 more thing when shiek players r at the ledge just grab her cause must of the time there gonna shield no1 does it

 

[Dark Hart]

up throw up smash when shiek at like 5% or less ***** cause they try to nair out then u can up smash again or up air or bair **** combo then u run and shoot some lasers

o yea 1 more thing when shiek players r at the ledge just grab her cause must of the time there gonna shield no1 does it

I lost pretty hard

 

[iamthemicrowave]

then u run and shoot some lasers

yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

 

[unknown522]

up throw up smash when shiek at like 5% or less ***** cause they try to nair out then u can up smash again or up air or bair **** combo then u run and shoot some lasers

o yea 1 more thing when shiek players r at the ledge just grab her cause must of the time there gonna shield no1 does it

I love you Jman.

But I already do this stuff.

did i say bad things?

you'll learn one day.

 

[(*Jman*)]

<3 u too =)

<3 all fox mains because they no how hard it is to play and win with fox

 

[unknown522]

Would you happen to know the exact percent this works at? It doesn't work at 0%, for the record. You will visibly see Fox pop up, indicating that you SDI'd properly, but then Fox will just stand up as if he got jab reset normally anyway. It's lame.

it doesn't work at 0% if you SDI it. If you don't, then it stops working at 71%.

Do you know if uthrow sh uair is a true combo?

no.

<3 u too =)

<3 all fox mains because they no how hard it is to play and win with fox

word. Also, good **** on winning DGDTJ!

 

[(*Jman*)]

yo i wanted to try something out but i dont have the tech skill a cube wii or melee to try it on lol

anyway you back throw then u nair to cover if they try to foward-b at you then u shine turn around in your shine grab ledge or bair.. covers mad **** i think i have not tryed it when i was trying to do it at that wc tourney i could not do it cause i suck lol