Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[EC_Joey]

yo i wanted to try something out but i dont have the tech skill

LOL Jman your tech skill's so good.

 

[(*Jman*)]

you think i am i cant do half the **** in melee =(

i cant even double laser with fox LOL

but anyway i would deffff like for someone to try that and tell me if it works cause i really want to know >_>

 

[unknown522]

yeah, it's pretty hard to do.

If you hit their illusion with a n-air, then you can always get a shine afterwards. If you miss though, it may cost you a stock.

also, you can't double laser? I thought you just chose not to do it or something.

edit: I mis-read what you said the n-air. I thought you meant to go offstage with it. I'll try out your idea though.

 

[(*Jman*)]

na i really just cant do it the truth lol

also i think single lasers are a lot better

 

[unknown522]

damn, I learned something new today.

But yeah, I think single is better as well. Gives you more control to move around with. You're also in the air for less time.

 

[JPOBS]

you'll learn one day.

i wish you'd just tell me

 

[PB&J]

jman-ill be back in ny on monday..we will play at dj's..i think i leveled up after all the things u told me what to do..u be the judge though

 

[Kanelol]

Not completely sure on uair, but you can fastfall a FH bair and still have it auto cancel.

are you sure on that

cuz i FH non-FF bair

and i cant waveland afterwards

:[

 

[unknown522]

i wish you'd just tell me

sheik is good at approaching.

good speed + high range + low lag + priority = amazing

 

[(*Jman*)]

jman-ill be back in ny on monday..we will play at dj's..i think i leveled up after all the things u told me what to do..u be the judge though

i kinda dont remember what i said but ok i guess lol

does everyone know the rules on fox dittos?? well its kinda me and m2ks rules

 

[unknown522]

what rules?

 

[(*Jman*)]

nair beat dair if your above
bair beats nair
dair beats bair if your above
up smash beats all of the above

i use these rules all the time in fox dittos

i love fox dittos =)

 

[Metal Reeper]

sheik is good at approaching.

good speed + high range + low lag + priority = amazing

Correction: No lag =p

 

[omgwtfToph]

are you sure on that

cuz i FH non-FF bair

and i cant waveland afterwards

:[

there is a difference between an auto cancel and the move actually ending LOL

don't just call it "auto cancelling" every time a move ends plz

it doesn't work at 0% if you SDI it. If you don't, then it stops working at 71%.

SDI'ing sheik's jab up at 0% doesn't do anything lol. i dont think you read my post haha :P

edit: ah, raynex answered so it's cool i guess. weird, it doesn't always seem to work for me until about 20% or something. even if it visibly looks like i hit the SDI

 

[JPOBS]

sheik is good at approaching.

good speed + high range + low lag + priority = amazing

i agree with all that but..
vs fox tho?

idk, i feel like her defensive abilities (cc + good shield + good options oos) in addition to some stuff you mention (high range and priority) make the matchup harder if you're forced on the approach,

than it is to deal with her approaching.

 

[KirbyKaze]

sheik is good at approaching.

good speed + high range + low lag + priority = amazing

If by approach you mean box people in, corner them, and then trap them then yeah

If by approach you mean attack their space and try to hit them then no she sucks at it she doesn't cover enough ground with her range because everything she does is stationary because she has no aerial mobility and you **** your own spacing if you run into theirs

 

[JPOBS]

ya thats what i was thinking originally^

 

[PB&J]

nair beat dair if your above
bair beats nair
dair beats bair if your above
up smash beats all of the above

i use these rules all the time in fox dittos

i love fox dittos =)

this is why you are the best fox..we must fox ditto alot. and i want to play your shiek/marth

 

[unknown522]

nair beat dair if your above
bair beats nair
dair beats bair if your above
up smash beats all of the above

i use these rules all the time in fox dittos

i love fox dittos =)

lol, That's pretty funny.

If by approach you mean box people in, corner them, and then trap them then yeah

If by approach you mean attack their space and try to hit them then no she sucks at it she doesn't cover enough ground with her range because everything she does is stationary because she has no aerial mobility and you **** your own spacing if you run into theirs

well then, I guess that's why sheiks think that they can't approach and FD is such a bad stage.........

now I know

 

[joeplicate]

pbnj- i think roll backwards OOS is a really good option vs sheik fairing your shield, if she does it once more while you roll, then you're out scott-free


i really like sh upair vs sheik at low percent, but i never used to do it cause i didn't have the tech skill. it's never a true combo, apparently, but is it safe to say it will connect around 10% then? can she nair out at that percent, or jump out, and how does this change with DI?

also, another thing i'm really curious about is the amount of lag of dsmash on shield, and what your options are to cover it.

i feel like [wd oos shine > anything] works pretty well, but i only get it sporadically. is there more stun if more hits connect on your shield? when's it safe to counterattack, and when will you get downsmashed again? if it pushes you really far away, will different options like [wd oos > dtilt/dsmash] work?


also i'm gonna start bracketing smash moves lol, it makes for mad easy reading


<3 jesus
the reason for the season, ya dig?

 

[unknown522]

SDI'ing sheik's jab up at 0% doesn't do anything lol. i dont think you read my post haha :P

edit: ah, raynex answered so it's cool i guess. weird, it doesn't always seem to work for me until about 20% or something. even if it visibly looks like i hit the SDI

trust me, it works at 0%

 

[KirbyKaze]

well then, I guess that's why sheiks think that they can't approach and FD is such a bad stage.........

now I know

You're so wrong lololol.

Oh well.

General Fox players: high platforms are gay because they give Fox more zones that are safe or relatively safe for him because attacking people with aerials when you're Sheik is a fairly high investment because her jumps are high and all her moves are sex kicks minus Fair so she's stuck in them for a while. Food for thought.

 

[unknown522]

how am I wrong?

 

[KirbyKaze]

You don't see a problem with being completely stationary when you're attacking so we're going to disagree

No point discussing it further

edit:

If she *can* approach she's better at defense anyway for the same reason

She's stationary when she does stuff, doesn't cover ground well, etc. She still "beats moves" and all that other stuff you listed when she's on defense, only it's better because you commit less, and being non-committal is one of the best parts of being a ranged character, which you already know.

 

[unknown522]

even if her defense is better, that doesn't mean that she can't approach.

Many other characters are stationary, but that doesn't mean they can't approach.

*sigh* I guess sheik is bad. Whatever.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm not going to get into the "she can" vs "she can't" approach with you.

But if you agree her defense is better, I would think it would be a prudent decision to make her do something she's not as good at to win the matchup.

What stationary characters approach effectively? I'm curious. You've said Marth in person. Who else?

 

[unknown522]

yes, but her approach is not bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that is the point!!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Okay, let's say her approach is fine.

If her defense is still better than her approach, shouldn't you make her use her approach?

ie. If her defense = "mega fabulous" and her approach = "only fabulous", doesn't it make more sense to make her use "only fabulous" gameplay instead of "mega fabulous" gameplay?

 

[unknown522]

because fox can beat her defense by camping her back.

Her defense is better in general, but not in this matchup, because she can get out-camped, or approached/counter-gimped (I guess)

 

[KirbyKaze]

My question is, then, is it better (in general) to camp Sheik or not?

I'm trying to figure out if you think it's better for her to play offense or not in this matchup if given the choice between either.

I also would like to know your opinion on the following. If Fox approaches is it better to play offense or defense as Sheik?

 

[Brookman]

for the Q on sheik's style: It depends on what you feel DD grab is considered (O or D?)

don't play a single style just get your grabs and your percents and your edge guards. don't let them control tempo/pressure with their running speed (needles)

too bad sheik cant throw her needles straight up. **** would be RIDICS

 

[KirbyKaze]

DD grab isn't offense (IMO) because it's a tactic that depends on you not making the first move. You generally wait for something while doing it - some kind of cue for grabbing. Be it they hold up their shield, or sidestep, or Nair into your space or whatever.

You can use it to pressure, sure, but you're still not making the first move and that falls under zoning or just basic space control as far as I'm concerned because you're still not attacking their spot. And if you are, you're doing it in a very passive way.

I don't find needles good vs Fox onstage. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I don't find needles good vs Fox onstage. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

Do you mind sharing why, KK?

This genuinely interests me. I usually use ledge-canceled needles vs. Fox, at the very least to keep him honest and on his toes (aka MINDGRAINES!111!). I can usually follow it up with a JC grab if they're on the stage proper (and if they're close enough), but I do play against very scrubby Foxes, so I dunno if that has any practical application when Fox is around platforms.

I occasionally SH and throw one needle (maybe two; I like to have more than one needle in queue if I can manage it) if they're aggroing on a flat plane (like FD) or if I can predict an approach out of a DD. Kind of anti-zoning, kind of...not? Anyway, once again, if I can cover ground quickly enough I'd grab them while they're in hitstun; if not, I usually just begin slapping the piss out of them and hope to get 'em off the stage.

I dunno. I play bad Foxes, so maybe needles versus bad Foxes would work.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Brookman]

kk you ever throw needles at the ground just to have the extra hit boxes laying around??

 

[LumpyCPU...]

you *******s got me learning to do jc usmash with Y instead of up. lol it's more consistent but doesn't feel natural yet.

 

[Strong Badam]

I just fight as hard as I can and I never lose to Sheiks.

 

[Teczer0]

DD grab isn't offense (IMO) because it's a tactic that depends on you not making the first move. You generally wait for something while doing it - some kind of cue for grabbing. Be it they hold up their shield, or sidestep, or Nair into your space or whatever.

You can use it to pressure, sure, but you're still not making the first move and that falls under zoning or just basic space control as far as I'm concerned because you're still not attacking their spot. And if you are, you're doing it in a very passive way.

I don't find needles good vs Fox onstage. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

Needles vs fox onstage is really only good if the fox is playing very defensive imo. So I agree with you lol.

If they do play defensive I spend a good portion of time using needles to trap them on the ground.

 

[KirbyKaze]

kk you ever throw needles at the ground just to have the extra hit boxes laying around??

Not consciously. But I do know what you're talking about.

If you're actually aiming them to hit with them, a decent Fox can simply laser in a way so he can block/Shine them if you're fullscreen. And closer he can, well, hit you. He's fast. They're good for disrupting I suppose, but if he's playing incredibly defensively I'd rather just work to box him in.

I should probably consider trying to get more out of the extra hitlag though. Needles are fairly innocuous.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Needle hitboxes lying around = possibly the key to Sheik not getting ***** by ICs!

 

[RaynEX]

are you sure on that

cuz i FH non-FF bair

and i cant waveland afterwards

:[

Autocancel means the move ends before you land, not that you have enough time to waveland. Not every autocanceled aerial permits the time to perform another action before you hit the ground.

Most, like Fox's, only provide the benefit of a lagless aerial upon landing.
Marth's Fair and Mario/Doc's Bair, on the other hand, both autocancel and give you the time to do something else (waveland, aerial again, double jump, airdodge)

pbnj- i think roll backwards OOS is a really good option vs sheik fairing your shield, if she does it once more while you roll, then you're out scott-free


i really like sh upair vs sheik at low percent, but i never used to do it cause i didn't have the tech skill. it's never a true combo, apparently, but is it safe to say it will connect around 10% then? can she nair out at that percent, or jump out, and how does this change with DI?

also, another thing i'm really curious about is the amount of lag of dsmash on shield, and what your options are to cover it.

i feel like [wd oos shine > anything] works pretty well, but i only get it sporadically. is there more stun if more hits connect on your shield? when's it safe to counterattack, and when will you get downsmashed again? if it pushes you really far away, will different options like [wd oos > dtilt/dsmash] work?

Good Sheiks will autocancel Fair on your shield and wait. If they don't commit to another move they can just chase your roll for a grab. There isn't any real reason to pressure the opponent's shield after fair unless they are the grabby type. Most Sheiks condition them to stop that **** by way of fair -> ftilt/dtilt/dsmash.

Dsmash is hyper laggy on shield, don't use it.

WD oos Shine/Usmash both work to punish Sheik's dsmash. Learn it, love it.

Needle hitboxes lying around = possibly the key to Sheik not getting ***** by ICs!

You're *** is still getting grabbed regardless.