ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I still think my theory has some merit.
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
Doser
Smash Ace
You're welcome
unknown522
Some guy
basically:
defensive fox > defensive sheik
defensive fox < offensive sheik
offensive fox < offensive sheik
offensive fox < defensive sheik
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
okay then i know we're going to disagree purely on principle lolol
conversation is over
conversation is over
unknown522
Some guy
fine, whatever.
Doser
Smash Ace
So overall you think fox loses in this matchup? I've generally heard it is even or slight in fox's favor.
unknown522
Some guy
that's not the only thing in the matchup.
also, I think it's even
also, I think it's even
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
i agree with even. i'm glad sheiks don't QQ about their character too much anymore like falcon players.
(i would QQ if i mained falcon too... lol)
(i would QQ if i mained falcon too... lol)
Doser
Smash Ace
When and what did they QQ about SHEIK? Jesus that's ridiculous.
This is way too straightforward xD
I think both characters have to play a combination of both defense and offense. And its just not gonna boil down to this simply.
That being said I still think Fox has a slight advantagh imo. He has more control of how the match up flows and therefore more freedom to play however he feels like.
unknown522
Some guy
sheik can change the pace as well, but kinda lazy to type some in-depth stuff
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
If you're good at reacting to tech in place, then I'd say Sheik can change the pace well. Lol.
Fortress | Sveet
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The problem is mobility. Sheik can approach and pressure with dash attack, grab, dash cancel ftilt and dash cancel utilt, but it can't compete with fox's defensive game. In her dash, sheik has few quick attack options, and all of them lose to fox's bair.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
i just wanna chime in and say:
When joe said "Roll OOS," it made me realize the difference between good rolls and stupid rolls.
Stupid rolls are just "rolls"
Good rolls are "rolls OOS."
LOL
When joe said "Roll OOS," it made me realize the difference between good rolls and stupid rolls.
Stupid rolls are just "rolls"
Good rolls are "rolls OOS."
LOL
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
yeah i think the same thing about shield grabs
Stupid ones are "shield grabs"
Smart ones are "grabs OOS"
Stupid ones are "shield grabs"
Smart ones are "grabs OOS"
joeplicate
Smash Master
haha i guess i said that because roll OOS is a way to get out a situation
the wording implies that it's a solution, instead of "rolling" which is either random or habitual
=P
also thanks for the feedback, raynex. i wasn't really talking about fox using downsmash on sheik's shield, lol. i'll keep trying to do [wd oos > shine] to punish.
i meant more like the amsah, just smacking the hell out of your shield with no remorse. i think that if you feel like they're abusing it, then rolling away is still a pretty good option. the problem is that i think fox just doesn't have a lot of options in this situation! what else could you do, wavedash out, and watch for the dash grab/dash attack? could they hold towards you during the short hop so they could follow and slap you again? maybe you should just drop your shield and CC a slap at low percents, so it sends you away, and then run.
just throwin out ideas here i guess
the wording implies that it's a solution, instead of "rolling" which is either random or habitual
=P
also thanks for the feedback, raynex. i wasn't really talking about fox using downsmash on sheik's shield, lol. i'll keep trying to do [wd oos > shine] to punish.
i meant more like the amsah, just smacking the hell out of your shield with no remorse. i think that if you feel like they're abusing it, then rolling away is still a pretty good option. the problem is that i think fox just doesn't have a lot of options in this situation! what else could you do, wavedash out, and watch for the dash grab/dash attack? could they hold towards you during the short hop so they could follow and slap you again? maybe you should just drop your shield and CC a slap at low percents, so it sends you away, and then run.
just throwin out ideas here i guess
Winston
Smash Master
That's a bit off
Autocancel means that the move does NOT end before you land, but there's no lag on landing if you land after a certain point during the aerial.
If you think about it, it makes sense. If you FH FF bair with Fox then you land with no lag, but if you FF FH bair with Fox and go offstage you can't do anything until after you are below ground level. This is even more obvious with Marth's nair. It has like a million years of lag, so it obviously doesn't complete before you land in a SH FF, but it autocancels.
If a move truly ends before you hit the ground, you can always waveland or jump or aerial. I don't think there's a special term for a move just ending before you land, though.
So one of the two will always work, no matter how many hits of the dsmash connect?
and do you mean usmash oos or wd oos into usmash?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Sheik's D-smash and you! How to punish it on block:
1st hit of Sheik D-smash only - WD oos almost anything you want
D-smash stops hitting shield at 2nd hit - WD oos Shine is easiest and probably best/most consistent
D-smash stops hitting shield at 3rd hit - Shield grab, aerial OOS, U-smash OOS
This assumes hard shielding
For the shield grab you need to hold into Sheik when she's D-smashing and shield DI a teensy weensy bit
Usually you can shield grab it though, or U-smash / aerial OOS
1st hit of Sheik D-smash only - WD oos almost anything you want
D-smash stops hitting shield at 2nd hit - WD oos Shine is easiest and probably best/most consistent
D-smash stops hitting shield at 3rd hit - Shield grab, aerial OOS, U-smash OOS
This assumes hard shielding
For the shield grab you need to hold into Sheik when she's D-smashing and shield DI a teensy weensy bit
Usually you can shield grab it though, or U-smash / aerial OOS
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
just do stuff with fox, and then you win.
why are yall making it more difficult than it has to be?
why are yall making it more difficult than it has to be?
Could be wrong, but I think he meant WD OoS then waveshine upsmash sheik.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
good point. my view has changed considerably.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Wavedash out of shield -> up-smash/grab is quite hard to do framewise against Sheik's/Peach's d-smash. Wavedash out of shield -> waveshine is easy to do consistently.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
and leads directly to the aforementioned anyway.
i dont see a reason to NOT always just do the wd shine oos and then w/e you want.
but in my experience, when all 3 hits hit your shield, the timing for the waveshine stricker cuz by that point their dsmash is almost done so its hard to reach them before they shield. in this case i just sh dair->shine etc
joeplicate
Smash Master
thanks, that was actually exactly the kind of thing i was looking for
i haven't played a human since you posted it! :0
Silent Wolf
...
its just a back throw isnt it?
if you do a nair after, they can shine stall until its about done and side b to the ledge. it just turns into a regular edge guard. you could sh nair on the stage near the ledge and be ready to dsmash the ledge if they side B. then if they up b just get on the ledge, then bair -> follow up. if they di the backthrow in you can combo a shine or aerial tho.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
The info on Sheik's dsmash was great David. Thanks for teaching us how to punish each individual hit. That's going to go a long away against the Sheik players that think it's free to throw out.
That's a REALLY good point. I never thought about it like that. We're sharing this definition from now on.
its kinda like iasa frames for aerials
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
some aerials also have iasa frames though...
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
Gooood question
Lovage
Smash Hero
cuz you might mess up and in some spots it's better to stop waveshining and air combo him
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
because air combos do more damage more quickly and don't have as dumb interactions with sdi and nonsense
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
waveshining only seems right to me because it's automatic.
it's not great in terms of percentage but it's still free and guaranteed.
i just grab or Usmash because i don't trust myself to waveshine 20 times in a row.
it's not great in terms of percentage but it's still free and guaranteed.
i just grab or Usmash because i don't trust myself to waveshine 20 times in a row.
Winston
Smash Master
It's probably still underused somewhat though. If you're like not too far from the edge and you can get there in 1-2 waveshines, then setting up a usmash by the edge is pretty sweet at some percents since he can't DI away to escape.
Silent Wolf
...
i think waveshining him across the stage is way more worth it if you can react accordingly to smash DI. you can just start a combo at the other end of the stage. or if hes above like 60 just dmsash edge guard. if he ends up in the right position you can shine him down. waveshines, then drill, then grab/turn around grab *****. i always waveshine falcon sheik and peach across.