• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

SpaceFalcon

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
1,714
Location
604
Ive got a question.. i dont have melee yet but im about to get it again but i do have brawl and i was wondering what character in melee involves you having fast fingers? I know that prob didnt make sence but what character is in the game that the player has to have super fast fingers to use? Im thinking fox but im not sure if there are other character in the game that involves the player having to have very fast fingers.

Idk why but when i play a game i have to be going super fast with my fingers or else i dont do well. My fingers have constantly got to be moving. So is fox this character or do you think another character is actually faster?? Remember.. they have to be fast in melee and brawl so falco is out seeing as how he really isnt that fast anymore.

Thanks for your time and i look forward to a reply :)
Fox
Falco
Falcon

In that order; after that it's perhaps pichu/pikachu. Then everyone else is meshed into the same technical requirements.

hey guys I just got some new vids of my fox
any words of advice, lingering habits?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piE-AWYvrMo -Kongo (broken map)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=994stqVwZm0 -dl64
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM9tEk7twqk -yoshi's
To be honest, you just play like most fox's. You treat an opponent like a cpu. A lot of the time I knew when you were gonna charge in.

Play smarter opponents who will punish you for it, to break habits.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
i'd say the most technical characters in terms of finger movement and dexterity are as follows

Fox
falco
------
ICs
Samus
Pikachu
Peach
--------
everyone else

then theres the chars like mewtwo, yoshi and ness who can djc but i dont know how practical that is
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
i'd say the most technical characters in terms of finger movement and dexterity are as follows

Fox
falco
------
ICs
Samus
Pikachu
Peach
--------
everyone else

then theres the chars like mewtwo, yoshi and ness who can djc but i dont know how practical that is
Extremely practical!

m2 only has bursts of DjC. You dont do it as rapidly as ness or yoshi would.

the others require you to DjC more often and have frequent button pressing, but not as consistent as the ones mentioned above.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
ya i figured its practical in some ways but i really know nothing about those chars so i didnt know where to rank them
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
Actually at times Id place the ness/yoshis above pikachu and peach, but peach can float cancel like no other.

Then it just depends on what you are doing.
 

iamthemicrowave

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 7, 2006
Messages
3,735
Location
Purdue/Woodridge, IL
hey guys I just got some new vids of my fox
any words of advice, lingering habits?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piE-AWYvrMo -Kongo (broken map)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=994stqVwZm0 -dl64
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM9tEk7twqk -yoshi's
ok luke

things I liked:

upsmash OOS to punish get up attacks
Shine OOS when sheik is near the edge
some good bair edgeguarding in game 8

things I didn't like:

you sit in your shield too much

you go to regrab sheik when she is up-bing above the ledge. This is a bad idea cuz it gives sheik her jump back, and that negates any knockback from a poorly died fthrow. you should just downsmash everytime

you went for some dumb technical stuff but its whatever cuz its friendlies.


Honestly, it's hard to critique these vids because A. your opponent isn't that good compared to you. He has no concept of sheik's offstage game, and let you recover way too many times. You just ran over him and just killed yourself from dumb SDs. B. They are not tournament matches.

Show me some videos of you getting your *** whopped and I could be alot more helpful.
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
it's hard to get videos of me losing when I'm the best player in the universe
btw george I have vids of my peach now if you're interested =D
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
hey guys I just got some new vids of my fox
any words of advice, lingering habits?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piE-AWYvrMo -Kongo (broken map)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=994stqVwZm0 -dl64
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM9tEk7twqk -yoshi's
Sometimes I watch Fox players and think, what the hell? This was one of those times. :psycho:

If you slowed down a bit and paced yourself, you'd land alot more hits and take alot more stocks. You need to assess a situation and act accordingly, rather than rushing by it in haste and missing your chance to do something. In the match 2, during one of the first edge-guards, you pushed Sheik off the stage but punished her recovery with dair -> shine. What? Come again?

Same match, from the 3 min mark onwards. No offense, but it was all just a big mess. On the edge, be patient when you're recovering. Think about what you're doing. There is no point in stalling and almost killing yourself if your opponent is nowhere near the edge. Just press forward and stand up and get on with your life. Uthrow single laser 3:07? Random waveland to pointless dair 3:10? haha it just seems like you need to take a step back when you're watching yourself play and ask yourself "why did I do this and this and this".

Also, you have GOT to stop illusioning at the stage every time. Its easy to needle and will get you ****ed. Firefox sweetspot from a bit higher up to force them to change their needle timing (from a higher point straight needles will whiff). If they catch on, then you can mix up between the two or simply go straight up to avoid the grounded Sheik altogether.

Keep playing, keep improving. Good stuff Toma.
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
all those dair shines were supposed to be dair waveshine usmash but I kept ****ing up the spacing. I'll just ledgehop uair/bair in the future, which will idiot-proof my fail spacing
a lot of my mistakes are from indecision--I run out of time so I have to improv something fast and I choose a bad move. Perhaps I just lack foresight.
On the positive side, I think my tech skill is finally getting concrete. That is, I'm not making many errors anymore. I HATE thinking correctly but being unable to execute so much :(
Thanks raynex, insightful as always
 

Kanelol

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
1,840
Location
Ohio yeeeee
Why do you Up Smash so much when you aren't even facing whoever

When you aren't even in range if you were facing them

:confused:


Nice Shine Bairs though
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
Why do you Up Smash so much when you aren't even facing whoever

When you aren't even in range if you were facing them

:confused:


Nice Shine Bairs though
one of my favorite things to do is shield near the ledge with my back to it. I usmash oos punish whatever they do. If they land behind me, the usmash hits them backwards and off the stage. If they land in front of me, the usmash hits them up. The shield serves as bait which nearly no characters can safely take.
The running usmash I missed near the ledge was simply poor spacing. I wouldn't have made it in time, anyway, usmash wasn't even a good option in that situation.
This game is so hard );
 

Kanelol

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
1,840
Location
Ohio yeeeee
btw i approve of all the u-throw u-airs


but you're gonna be in trouble when you start playing people that know how to SDI that ****. just mix it up a little bit from your grabs, yknow
 

GOD!

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Messages
778
Location
Rome, GA
Theres no point in mixing it up unless they SDI it first.

@Tomacawk.
You're pretty good and I was impressed by your matches.

You rush in really predictably like raynex said. And the sheik you were playing was kind of bad, especially at edgeguarding (she let you recover every time and it made me want to scream). Of course it looked like she was scared of you because of this and she started playing really defensive and immobile).

Also you used dair a lot to get a shine> grab or a shine>usmash. If she had known to SDI it you would have gotten grabbed probably.

She also didn't dthrow or tech chase, at all.

Also try and recover high sometimes. If you recover low, sheik can just grab on the stage, jump out and bair you in your firefox, and recover know problem.

But you ***** him pretty hard, and your multishines were sexy.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
i'd say the most technical characters in terms of finger movement and dexterity are as follows

Fox
falco
------
ICs
Samus
Pikachu
Peach
--------
everyone else

then theres the chars like mewtwo, yoshi and ness who can djc but i dont know how practical that is
For good characters it's like

Fox
----
Falco
----
Other good characters

The APM thread cited Fox as the most input-intensive character by a significant amount, followed by Falco. Everyone else hovered around the same range for the most part.
 

SPAWN

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 8, 2005
Messages
3,121
Location
CT
Slippi.gg
spaw#333
In the statistical summary the average is only like 14 apms away xD.
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
question:

say a fox upthrows me and I want to SDI out of the uair. I know various methods (quarter circle when you get hit; sheik dash-dance), but I was wondering if this would work. What if as soon as I get uthrowed I start spamming quarter circle back and forth? Like if fox is facing right, I start at top right, roll to bottom right, and then back and forth? Will that correctly input a quarter circle DI whenever I get hit, or do I need to actually time it?
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
question:

say a fox upthrows me and I want to SDI out of the uair. I know various methods (quarter circle when you get hit; sheik dash-dance), but I was wondering if this would work. What if as soon as I get uthrowed I start spamming quarter circle back and forth? Like if fox is facing right, I start at top right, roll to bottom right, and then back and forth? Will that correctly input a quarter circle DI whenever I get hit, or do I need to actually time it?
If you are rotating fast enough you will get multiple SDI inputs in almost all cases.

The question is, was it in the right direction?

You need to time it so that you SDI the first hit of the uair in the correct direction(s). Do the same rolling thing, but try to do it as fast as possible on a smaller area. So try to quarter circle Di back and forth-between up and right/left if thats the method you want to use.
 

Kanelol

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
1,840
Location
Ohio yeeeee
Watching the FD match now. Sh lazer more. JC shines with short hops instead of full hops. Don't be afraid to follow your u-throws at low percents with a nair or something, if you're not confident in your ability to read the DI/tech.

Don't get so antsy on your edgeguards, like Bacon's second stock. He was dead to rights, and you let him back twice. Sure he only got ~50% on you, but it was enough for you to be dead in a few seconds due to serious kneeage when he came back.

FoD match was pretty **** good, don't have much to say. Maybe try recovering a little higher so the knees aren't obvious. And wall tech. Also, lazer recovery from the ledge, dat ain't falco.

These are all relatively small critiques, overall that was phenomenally good ****.
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
2,287
Location
vegas baby
Watching the FD match now. Sh lazer more. JC shines with short hops instead of full hops. Don't be afraid to follow your u-throws at low percents with a nair or something, if you're not confident in your ability to read the DI/tech.

Don't get so antsy on your edgeguards, like Bacon's second stock. He was dead to rights, and you let him back twice. Sure he only got ~50% on you, but it was enough for you to be dead in a few seconds due to serious kneeage when he came back.

FoD match was pretty **** good, don't have much to say. Maybe try recovering a little higher so the knees aren't obvious. And wall tech. Also, lazer recovery from the ledge, dat ain't falco.

These are all relatively small critiques, overall that was phenomenally good ****.
LOL laser recovery is sometimes just an old habit, kinda dumb. The edgeguards like the shine bair were more for fun, bacon constantly points out that i'm the one person he knows that doesn't fall for any of his falcon tricks, I watch him mindgame alot of people with his recovery, but I just bair his *** all day lol.

also I don't seem to laser much in this matchup unless i'm liking chasing him while he's di'ng a hit or something, I feel If im lasering him I'm giving falcon too much room to move around and set up something good. I dunno. I guess I just don't like giving falcon room to breath

Thanks for the critique =) Small critiques are good too. Quick read that gets out a noticeable flaw in my playstyle.

also anyone else is appreciated too.
 

GOD!

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Messages
778
Location
Rome, GA
I just watched the one on FD but:

-You could be more patient with your edgeguarding. There was a time when he was recovering up the wall on fd at low percent and you walked away from the edge to punish him once he landed. You were in a great position to shine/bair/dair/dsmash and end the stock early, but you let him on and gave him some percent. And if they're going to die , don't leave the edge to bair them (I know its a friendly, but still).
-Watching your position, you got pushed back to the edge a lot by falcon. Watch every time he approaches you; more often than not, you will run away to the edge. This is not where you want to be vs falcon, cause you can die by a low percent knee or something, and you can't really gimp him effectively here. If I were you, just try and control the center if the stage so you have room to move. He didn't really take advantage of this at all, and you didn't roll like a noob, so it worked out for you.

Hope this helps.
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
I'll try my best to read into every situation so you can better understand some of the mistakes you are making. Taking the quick choices you make and magnifying them to reveal their true importance and scope in the context of competitive play, would definitely help you improve. Hopefully you don't take this as me reading too much into the finer details. :laugh:


0:38: If you're mid combo and your opponent still has a double jump, or you're not sure if you can still combo (you throw out a nair here) - its best to relax and wait for them to do something. Most professional players (Ken comes to mind), are proficient at knowing when not to attack, then waiting for the right time and hitting them when they double jump or try to retaliate. Getting comboed sucks, and you know that once a true combo string has ended your opponent is looking to retaliate. To do something...anything. Since you knocked him off the side of the stage like that, waiting for that DJ and ftilting/fsmashing or even blocking would have spelled his doom. He had no where to go, but you threw the nair out without really understanding the situation. It almost cost you your stock.

While I'm on the topic, Ken is notorious for this kind of thing. Starting a combo, noticing gaps and breaks in strings, and tippering through DJs and aerials. He uses the pressure he created with his opening combo as a guide. Its a great habit to get into.

1:04: You should never miss an edge-guard like that. You had more than enough time to grab the edge and take that stock. Pinpointed dsmashes are okay, but if you miss there is huge lag. The window for punishment is alot bigger if you miss with dsmash than with many of your other edge-guard options, so use it sparingly (If spacies illusion quickly and you aren't positioned properly, etc). Falling off with shine, grabbing the edge, or even SH dair would have been good options in this situation. Falcon's upB can never truly sweetspot. Some part of his hand is always above the edge even if it doesn't look like it. Leave the laggy **** at home and go to work once you knock him off the stage.

-On your second stock, too many random nairs, too many missed usmashes. You looked almost confused in your execution and movement. At 1:29 for example, there was no need to nair right in his face AFTER he had recovered from his knee, because he'd obviously be dashing away. Against good players, any whiffed aerial is open to counter-attack and big damage. If you aren't sure of how to land a hit, then stick to what you know. Dash-dancing is good, FH auto-cancelled and SH bairs are good for spacing and putting up a wall, dash attack is good for overshooting vs. other dash-dancers. Play to Fox's strengths and use your execution to have a planned method of approach and defense, rather than just spamming usmash or running around aimlessly, missing opportunities left and right.

2:00 onward: So focused on landing a shine at this point. I guess your strategy here was "If at first I don't succeed, go for it 5 more times 1!!!11!!". Pace yourself; more thinking and less random button pressing. If you CCed him back with grab or your own jab, it would have left you in a much better position.

3:05: I think you know what happened here...this goes back to the first thing I said at 0:38. Combo ended, the shine -> bair was completely unnecessary - yet you went for it. You had good pressure going, but when the combo ended you just kept going and going. Good Falcons land a knockdown with dair like that, GGs buddy.

3:15: I have no idea how you missed this edge-guard. Why laser, when you could have run across the stage and simply ended the match? The shine spike was a good idea, but it seemed oddly placed. Random lasers for damage when he was already off the stage and at kill percent, then a missed shine. The shine spike was a good plan, but it was poorly executed. The lasers weren't needed in the slightest, and really only made it more difficult for you to catch up with him. If you want to get better and have a cleaner more professional looking Fox, you're going to have to get right to the point and get the job done.


Hope I didn't sound too mean! I watched your videos waay back when, and it seems like you've improved alot since then. Mostly, I just notice more technical consistency. You're mind work needs a boost if you want to improve your Fox. Hope I hepled.

I'll be sure to give some light commentary on match 2 as well. :)
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
2,287
Location
vegas baby
I'll try my best to read into every situation so you can better understand some of the mistakes you are making. Taking the quick choices you make and magnifying them to reveal their true importance and scope in the context of competitive play, would definitely help you improve. Hopefully you don't take this as me reading too much into the finer details. :laugh:


0:38: If you're mid combo and your opponent still has a double jump, or you're not sure if you can still combo (you throw out a nair here) - its best to relax and wait for them to do something. Most professional players (Ken comes to mind), are proficient at knowing when not to attack, then waiting for the right time and hitting them when they double jump or try to retaliate. Getting comboed sucks, and you know that once a true combo string has ended your opponent is looking to retaliate. To do something...anything. Since you knocked him off the side of the stage like that, waiting for that DJ and ftilting/fsmashing or even blocking would have spelled his doom. He had no where to go, but you threw the nair out without really understanding the situation. It almost cost you your stock.

While I'm on the topic, Ken is notorious for this kind of thing. Starting a combo, noticing gaps and breaks in strings, and tippering through DJs and aerials. He uses the pressure he created with his opening combo as a guide. Its a great habit to get into.

1:04: You should never miss an edge-guard like that. You had more than enough time to grab the edge and take that stock. Pinpointed dsmashes are okay, but if you miss there is huge lag. The window for punishment is alot bigger if you miss with dsmash than with many of your other edge-guard options, so use it sparingly (If spacies illusion quickly and you aren't positioned properly, etc). Falling off with shine, grabbing the edge, or even SH dair would have been good options in this situation. Falcon's upB can never truly sweetspot. Some part of his hand is always above the edge even if it doesn't look like it. Leave the laggy **** at home and go to work once you knock him off the stage.

-On your second stock, too many random nairs, too many missed usmashes. You looked almost confused in your execution and movement. At 1:29 for example, there was no need to nair right in his face AFTER he had recovered from his knee, because he'd obviously be dashing away. Against good players, any whiffed aerial is open to counter-attack and big damage. If you aren't sure of how to land a hit, then stick to what you know. Dash-dancing is good, FH auto-cancelled and SH bairs are good for spacing and putting up a wall, dash attack is good for overshooting vs. other dash-dancers. Play to Fox's strengths and use your execution to have a planned method of approach and defense, rather than just spamming usmash or running around aimlessly, missing opportunities left and right.

2:00 onward: So focused on landing a shine at this point. I guess your strategy here was "If at first I don't succeed, go for it 5 more times 1!!!11!!". Pace yourself; more thinking and less random button pressing. If you CCed him back with grab or your own jab, it would have left you in a much better position.

3:05: I think you know what happened here...this goes back to the first thing I said at 0:38. Combo ended, the shine -> bair was completely unnecessary - yet you went for it. You had good pressure going, but when the combo ended you just kept going and going. Good Falcons land a knockdown with dair like that, GGs buddy.

3:15: I have no idea how you missed this edge-guard. Why laser, when you could have run across the stage and simply ended the match? The shine spike was a good idea, but it seemed oddly placed. Random lasers for damage when he was already off the stage and at kill percent, then a missed shine. The shine spike was a good plan, but it was poorly executed. The lasers weren't needed in the slightest, and really only made it more difficult for you to catch up with him. If you want to get better and have a cleaner more professional looking Fox, you're going to have to get right to the point and get the job done.


Hope I didn't sound too mean! I watched your videos waay back when, and it seems like you've improved alot since then. Mostly, I just notice more technical consistency. You're mind work needs a boost if you want to improve your Fox. Hope I hepled.

I'll be sure to give some light commentary on match 2 as well. :)
Definitely not offended at all, the more you critique/point on things in whatever way, helps me point out how those problems aren't just small minor things that don't matter. I don't notice those small things on my own usually. Looking back at 3:15, confused myself on that.

Awesome read tho. hopefully you get a chance on the next match. I honestly feel that first tip on waiting/knowing when to attack/finish a combo with pressure already applied is gonna help substantially.

Just picked up fox this year, so I realize I still have a lot to learn/apply.

Thanks rayneeeeeeeeeeeeee :)
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
ICs can be much more technical depending on your play style. Theres a guy around here that controls them both separately and does really weird mindgamie desyncs.

Fox is pretty simple and straight forward once you have the speed down...

Falco is good for learning faster rhythm when you're not consistant with fox's speed

Falcon is for when you can't handle a shine yet

Peach can get sorta technical, though its also sorta easy-mode with FCs...
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Samus looks like she could be an extreme either way. I don't think HugS's style would be really input intensive in terms of raw tech skill (though if precision is tech skill he'd be really high), whereas someone like IHSB or Phanna would have a really high demand because of movement funny business alone. Then again, this just draws the question of what is tech skill and I don't have an answer because nobody can agree on it anyway.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
i think of tech skill as the amount of buttons you have to press in precise and successive order to perform practical fuctions.

now whats practical or necessary is completely up for interpretation.
 

mastermoo420

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
726
Shine recoveries: Should you do them? By shine recovery, I just mean using shine ASAP (and not jump :p) when recovering so your momentum is canceled, and you can recover more often. In my head, this seems like a great idea considering the momentum is canceled, and it comes out in one frame, but I was just wondering if this was bad.
 

Kanelol

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
1,840
Location
Ohio yeeeee
Shining doesn't cancel momentum, but shine stalling is cool

I'll just throw a shine in before my double jump for lulz sometimes
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
anyone know why on yoshis when you firebird really low (like where you appear in the little bubble) you die die off the bottom despite having started your b-up?
 
Top Bottom