Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[unknown522]

yeah, it takes so long to knock a lot of characters over.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

pretty much what I mean by perfect is just holding straight down, because if you press down to late, you will ASDI down instead, so CCing won't work as long. Also if you're holding the control stick to the side slightly, then the CC won't be as strong.

CCing is ASDI down. Thats all it is.

 

[AnDaLe]

oh about CCing and ASDI, never do that against Falcon's knee near the edge of the stage even at 15%. U'll just go straight down to death. I do that a lot T.T

 

[EWC]

Crouch Canceling is actually to different things happening at the same time.

The main thing that people associate with CC is really just downward ASDI. This is what cancels your hitstun. It works because

1) ASDI happens at the same time as the first frame of knockback. This means that if the vertical part of the knockback is small enough, your ASDI will always make you hit the after the first frame.

2) If the hit is not strong enough to put you into the tumble animation, then landing will instantly end your hitstun. This is the same reason that you can shine people in the air an they have no stun when they land.

You can ASDI at any time, just by holding down on either the analog or c stick. This is why you can get a weak CC effect even when you are in lag. In particular, this kind of CC actually has nothing to do with crouching. Also note that ASDI down will have no effect if you get hit with a strong vertical knockback.

The other effect that is associated with crouch canceling is reduced knockback. This is just a result of getting hit while you are crouching. This can help you stay alive when you get hit by kill moves at high percents. It also makes downward ASDI work much longer, because the reduced knockback makes you less likely to tumble/ go too far on the first frame.

So, to summarize, a "weak CC" is just ASDI down, and can be done at any time. A "strong CC" is crouching for reduced knockback + ASDI down, and can only be down when you actually crouching.

One other thing: You know how sometimes you CC, but the hit pushes you away far enough that your counter attack misses? Well no more! If you put up your shield while sliding, it will stop all your momentum. So if you hold R while you CC, then instead of sliding away a little bit when you get hit, you will instantly put up your shield and stop in place. Then you can press a right away and grab, or you could do an upsmash if you're amazing. Protip: THIS IS REALLY GOOD.

 

[Tomacawk]

or you could do an upsmash if you're amazing. Protip: THIS IS REALLY GOOD.

mind=blown
i really need to practice usmash oos techskill

 

[EWC]

Yeah, I can't actually do CC->shield->upsmash on the spot yet, but I've I've been playing around with it a little bit. You can get the upsmash to hit a lot of the time, even if your opponent seems to be really far away from.

 

[JPOBS]

how can you hold R while you are CCing witout the sheild coming up?

 

[Roman.]

why wouldn't you just shield the move, not suffer the % and usmash oos?

 

[Tomacawk]

how can you hold R while you are CCing witout the sheild coming up?

The shield coming up makes usmash a possible punish after CCing, and shielding helps obtain that goal by stopping your momentum in exchange for a few jumping frames (which result from usmashing oos rather than just usmashing).
I'm not sure if you can hit R while CCing and not have a shield come up, assuming you've hit R after hitstun finishes.

why wouldn't you just shield the move, not suffer the % and usmash oos?

you can't shield if you're in the lag of doing something, like a whiffed nair
CCing also leaves you with less hit stun than shield stun would have left you with, making a usmash oos impossible but a CC usmash oos viable.

 

[EWC]

The idea is to use this if you're already in lag from something, so you can't put up your shield.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Wait ... so CC -> shield causes you to not slide away as far?

 

[EWC]

That is correct. The moment your shield goes up, you stop sliding.

 

[Silent Wolf]

youre shield only stops you from sliding out of the initial dash animation. from a full run or wd or being hit and ccing it doesnt cancel your momentum, but does allow you to grab easier. if you were to use z from a cc you would jab if you tried to do it fast.

 

[ChivalRuse]

if you were to use z from a cc you would jab if you tried to do it fast.

That's why you JC grab out of a CC. You don't just hit Z.

That being said, M2K says CC shield grab is superior to CC JC grab.

 

[Silent Wolf]

it is, its faster

 

[unknown522]

What SW said. It takes extra time to JC and grab

 

[SuperRad]

I haven't gotten a chance to play for a bit, but I've been thinking about the application of down smash.

It seems like waveshine->dsmash near the ledge could be good if you catch them with bad di, or against characters that are easier to edge guard.

Thoughts?

 

[unknown522]

It's used already....

like for gimping falcon/ganon/sheik. And for edgeguarding spacies. Etc.

 

[voorhese]

hey all ,just figured i would share that on falcon/ganon if they are close to the edge; shine turn around wavedash off stage -> fastfall -> shine

is a shine spike (also works if ur back is facing the edge already)

ive used this for some time now, but havent had the chance to use it in tourney or anything, have fun tinkering with it (i dont know the ins and outs yet)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

uhhh isn't that really basic?

also, it can be beat by holding in in most situations as well as fast falling after the first shine like this:

 

[voorhese]

well if you do it close enough to the stage, the people i had try it can do it in time, i think when i waveshine off the stage i touch thim with fox again, so they cant grab stage, cuz i follow them pretty fast

just putting that out there because it seemed "basic" to me, but never see anyone do it


** also that gif is with marth not falcon, i didnt say marth

 

[Milos]

watch any combo video with fox in it.... you'll see your technique used

it is indeed useful, all sveet is saying is that it can be prevented if they make it so they grab the ledge first, fox cant follow up

 

[Tomacawk]

voorhese, falcon will grab the ledge before you can shine him. what happens if you wd down there is your shine whiffs, you jump out, and falcon ledge hop aerials you for free.

 

[voorhese]

idk man, i havent seen anyone use it in combo video, maybe something similar

 

[ArcNatural]

idk man, i havent seen anyone use it in combo video, maybe something similar

Watch one of Silent Wolf's combo videos. He does this in his pokemon stadium shine, jump waveland on platform drill shine turn around wavedash out shinespike combo on Falcon.

But I'll also point out that the turn around doesn't really need to be used in this situation. You can just waveshine and drop off going forward and achieve the same scenario.

 

[voorhese]

Watch one of Silent Wolf's combo videos. He does this in his pokemon stadium shine, jump waveland on platform drill shine turn around wavedash out shinespike combo on Falcon.

But I'll also point out that the turn around doesn't really need to be used in this situation. You can just waveshine and drop off going forward and achieve the same scenario.

yah i actually remember the silent wolf one now, but thats the only time ive seen it

also i always get stuck on edge if i dont have back facing edge

 

[Milos]

it's used a lot by alex19 in that combo video mango+alex+lucky=**** x2

that's a very good video you should watch it if you havent

matter of fact ima go watch it again lol

 

[voorhese]

it's used a lot by alex19 in that combo video mango+alex+lucky=**** x2

that's a very good video you should watch it if you havent

matter of fact ima go watch it again lol

i watch it like everyday, he does something like it, but i think if u do it close enough to the stage edge they cant grab stage is what i mean

 

[Rubyiris]

I've seen it done in pretty much every fox combo video by a high-level player.

Hell, Zelgadis and Chillin were doing this back in the stone age.

Also, even if you go as fast as you possibly can, they grab the ledge before you can follow up. If you're getting a follow up that close to the ledge, your opponent IS NOT doing it right.

 

[voorhese]

well thats why i was saying to tinker with it, cuz good old johnticello is full of BK's and i cant try it on CPU

 

[JPOBS]

lol in friendlies i go for it all the time in the off chance they dont hold in, because it actually doesnt work at all lol they grab the ledge.

its ok to do on yoshis and battlefield cuz you can just jump and waveland onto the platform overhead after you attempt it

on FD/dreamland though you're gonna get wrecked cuz they're just gonna ledge hop an aerial and kill you lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

hey jason, go back up and look at that gif i posted. Look how close *marth* is to the edge when he gets shined. You can simply press down after you slide off the stage to fast fall and grab the edge no matter what. In the gif i did NOT hold in on the marth, i simply pressed down after he fell off.

I just tested it with falcon, and it works and has more leeway than marth. I'm pretty sure it works for every character that doesnt fall from shine.

 

[Lovage]

hey all ,just figured i would share that on falcon/ganon if they are close to the edge; shine turn around wavedash off stage -> fastfall -> shine

is a shine spike (also works if ur back is facing the edge already)

ive used this for some time now, but havent had the chance to use it in tourney or anything, have fun tinkering with it (i dont know the ins and outs yet)

OLD

works on sheik too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5YoZV3NG3o#t=6m17s

 

[voorhese]

im not claiming it as something i discovered, i was just wondering why no one seemed to use it, and if it really worked

and now i know it doesnt if they see it coming

edit: ****it i broke my 1337 posts

 

[SuperRad]

i saw lovage do it twice at pound 4 vs sheik players (in the above and vs drewphen)

 

[KAOSTAR]

youre shield only stops you from sliding out of the initial dash animation. from a full run or wd or being hit and ccing it doesnt cancel your momentum, but does allow you to grab easier. if you were to use z from a cc you would jab if you tried to do it fast.

Cant you try to dash out of the CC?

If you get hit you CC and during the sliding back part, but you have control, dash and shield.

I would think it be harder, but during shine shinnanigans or something into a grab.(I guess if you were a marth in that case.)

 

[Silent Wolf]

dash as an alternative to shielding? if a fox nair waveshines a marth, which is what im assuming you mean, you can just shield grab him if he tries to go for a waveshine that would go far enough to combo into grab.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I just meant, you have backwards momentum from an attack you CC. to stop from sliding, you dash and then immediately shield to stop your momentum, since the shield would only stop it out of a dash.

I thought maybe it would also keep you from sliding back.

 

[Silent Wolf]

oic. yeah it seems like that could be useful

 

[unknown522]

OLD

works on sheik too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5YoZV3NG3o#t=6m17s

yeah, raynex did it vs KK in one of those matches in his "advice needed" thread