~Twitch~
Smash Master
yeah, my DI was pretty bad. :/
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Match 1:
0:17
Its clear that you understand why dashdancing is good, but you aren't applying it well. In this instance at 0:17, you dashdance, but run in blindly anyways and get grabbed.
0:43
This DDing was a bit better, but you still missed the nair. Here you were just dancing too far away from where he was. Proximity is really important when you're using Fox's DD to scout defensive play and sneak in attacks. If you aren't close enough, using DD to juke out opponents fails completely, because you end up running straight at them to cover the distance you created. Work on controlling the lengths of your dashes so you can slide closer towards Marth. When you choose to attack, landing the hit will be that much easier.
1:00
i don't think i need to explain why this random usmash was bad. What was running through your head at this point? It seemed like you were tired of getting out-turtled and grabbed.
1:12
More pressure at the edge. Marth doesn't have enough invincibility to scare Fox away. Stay out of range of ledge-hop fair and keep your shield ready. If Marth whiffs a ledge-hop move, or simply gets up (like Tai did), then thats a free something for you. As long as you're close enough to react to what he does, it's aaall good.
1:31
Got grabbed again because of some random decision you made. You wouldn't be losing much if you just slowed down and bit made slightly better choices. Throwing yourself off the stage and putting yourself on the edge vs. MARTH is not good at all.
2:48
Man, if you had shined instead of baired...
Honestly, you're not bad at all - but some of your choices could be slightly better. Correct application of DDing, one of Fox's most useful tool, is essential if you want to get better with him. Your Falco is cool.
Go to exactly 2:13 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDS29gYEsaM
You can grab them while they're bouncing from the shine knockdown. For some reason, one of the tiny bounces that occurs when your opponent gets hit is grab vulnerable. I'm not sure if the conditions will always be present for the grab to work, though. When you shine an opponent, is the way in which they fall mirrored in every other knockdown situation? If so, then the only thing you need to do is be fast oos(hine) and be close enough to reach them. Fox has plenty of other more reliable options, and in tournament you should never let an a gimmicks take priority solid, attainable damage.
Everyone had bad d.i. at some point. The key is learning that holding away after taking certain hits isn't always bad.
Lovage
Smash Hero
yah i was gonna say the same thing about rubyiris that baynex did
your dashdancing is like form without function
you know it's a good thing to do but you don't know exactly what you're trying to accomplish, so you're really sloppy with it and many of the times you decided to dash dance, you were in a really good position to attack and wasted your opportunity.
it feels like you dash dance a lot of times out of compulsion, not out of necessity
your dashdancing is like form without function
you know it's a good thing to do but you don't know exactly what you're trying to accomplish, so you're really sloppy with it and many of the times you decided to dash dance, you were in a really good position to attack and wasted your opportunity.
it feels like you dash dance a lot of times out of compulsion, not out of necessity
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
His combo DI is okay. His survival DI is what needs work. He was dying from bairs at pretty low percents.
_KuyaSombreo_
Smash Ace
When someone tries to KO someone with a Uair, but doesnt get it....
How can you tell if either the person smash DI's or the guy just messes up the Uair?
How can you tell if either the person smash DI's or the guy just messes up the Uair?
Fortress | Sveet
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technically, if the first hitbox hit the 2nd will hit if the person doesn't hold any direction. If they simply hold a direction they will get ASDI which will get them out if the uair wasn't spaced well at all. SDI will get them out if the uair was spaced well and you'll see the character move in the direction they SDI'd.
lord karn
Smash Master
Is there a guaranteed follow-up at 0 against spacies/falcon from upthrow? It seems like the best option is to wait for them to hit the ground and tech chase.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Probably. It's alot better now than what it used to be. A year ago I dash danced because I knew it was good, but I had no idea what I was doing with it. I have a better idea now, but I'm still learning.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
He said at 0.
Regrab might. Not sure.
Usmash doesn't work at 0.
Utilt does.
Uair doesn't.
Nair doesn't.
Shine does.
I personally like uthrow waveshine -> usmash missed tech on spacies or uthrow waveshine regrab on Falcon.
Lovage
Smash Hero
at 0 against falcon it's best to just let them fall and tech chase grab them. shine is ok but it doesn't lead to anything, a good falcon will DI the shine away, hit the ground (canceling all stun from the shine) and grab you. utilt isn't a good idea either because a good falcon will S/DI down and get their shield up to shield grab you or buffer roll away.
at like 30 or something you can do a mini-chaingrab on falcon, i don't know the specifics (daynex????) but its like 30-45 or something.
basically as soon as you can uthrow usmash, go for it, then tech chase to where they roll and then theres a million things you can do depending on how fast you were
you can start good punishments at super low percents if you're located under a platform. you're most likely gonna score more percent off a low percent uthrow if you have a platform that you can **** them on with a well placed uair, a drill reset, a waveland grab, a techchase bair, etc.
at like 30 or something you can do a mini-chaingrab on falcon, i don't know the specifics (daynex????) but its like 30-45 or something.
basically as soon as you can uthrow usmash, go for it, then tech chase to where they roll and then theres a million things you can do depending on how fast you were
you can start good punishments at super low percents if you're located under a platform. you're most likely gonna score more percent off a low percent uthrow if you have a platform that you can **** them on with a well placed uair, a drill reset, a waveland grab, a techchase bair, etc.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
lol wut?
upthrow upsmash definitely combos on spacies/falcon at zero =/
and so does regrab. if they di the throw then its kinda hard but still possible.
and ya waveshinging falcon from upthrow is like the worst possible otion to take its so easy to get out of and he can counter **** you by just grabbing.
upthrow upsmash definitely combos on spacies/falcon at zero =/
and so does regrab. if they di the throw then its kinda hard but still possible.
and ya waveshinging falcon from upthrow is like the worst possible otion to take its so easy to get out of and he can counter **** you by just grabbing.
lord karn
Smash Master
I figured techchasing was the best option in absence of a platform. When does uthrow upsmash start working guaranteed?
JPOBS
Smash Hero
it honestly depends on what you mean by garunteed.
you can combo upthrow upsmash at 0 on no DI or minimal DI, but if they manage to get the max away DI off the upthrow it will miss and they will tech but upsmash is huge so their DI has to be really good.
fun fact: at around 100% (and maybe a little lower), you can combo upthrow into a charged upsmashs if they DI it in any direction
edit:that was for spacies
falcon is wierd. upsmash will hit at under 15% but around 15-30% he can jump out but at later percents you can still upthrow->upsmash him. i dont really know the specifics i just have a feel for it
you can combo upthrow upsmash at 0 on no DI or minimal DI, but if they manage to get the max away DI off the upthrow it will miss and they will tech but upsmash is huge so their DI has to be really good.
fun fact: at around 100% (and maybe a little lower), you can combo upthrow into a charged upsmashs if they DI it in any direction
edit:that was for spacies
falcon is wierd. upsmash will hit at under 15% but around 15-30% he can jump out but at later percents you can still upthrow->upsmash him. i dont really know the specifics i just have a feel for it
lord karn
Smash Master
Well, if they can get out of it by DIing then I guess I consider that not guaranteed. I need to work on doing the charged usmash on spacies at around that percent. I always instinctively go for a bair.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
yea its not garunteed therorectically but its one of those things where, its not like you're relying on a bad strategy, your just expecting your opponent to not have perfect DI, which is very common even among top players.
when all else fails, you can watch their DI and if you think it'll miss just regrab them on reaction, fox is dumb like that.
and yea the bair is easier to survival DI but it can set up edgeguards when you need them, but depending on the map and where on the stage you got the grab, you might just wanna go for charged upsmashs, which are more ballin anyway.
when all else fails, you can watch their DI and if you think it'll miss just regrab them on reaction, fox is dumb like that.
and yea the bair is easier to survival DI but it can set up edgeguards when you need them, but depending on the map and where on the stage you got the grab, you might just wanna go for charged upsmashs, which are more ballin anyway.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yea, I know shine to grab is escapeable. I've had enough success with it to use as a mix-up, though.
Oh, and Uthrow never forces Falcon to tech. I'm pretty sure that uthrow without DI can be jumped out of at any percent.
Spacies, maybe. Falcon, no. He can tech before the upsmash hits.
I'm pretty sure Fox can uthrow regrab himself at zero. Falco hits the ground faster, so I don't know about that.
If you waveshine really fast and grab, it usually works if they aren't expecting it, because it's hard to react that quickly. Anyway, I'll take my chances of them rolling out occasionally over your blatantly missing that upsmash at zero every time due to them teching the uthrow.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
upthrow->waveshine->jab->grab is decent cuz the jab messes with their timing on stuff so it works out most of the time
but I dunno, i get upthrow->upsmash at 0 everytime, unless like pretty much everyone is doing it wrong or im just trippin. :/
yea you're probably right about the flaco regrab thing, i dont play it much from the fox perspective, falco dittos all day. i just know the chaingrab does start at 0 on fox and assumed the same for the bird.
but I dunno, i get upthrow->upsmash at 0 everytime, unless like pretty much everyone is doing it wrong or im just trippin. :/
yea you're probably right about the flaco regrab thing, i dont play it much from the fox perspective, falco dittos all day. i just know the chaingrab does start at 0 on fox and assumed the same for the bird.
unknown522
Some guy
jab sucks. Everyone spams CC nowadays.
Also, u-throw -> u-smash doesn't link on falcon if he DIs away at 0. It technically doesn't combo even if he doesn't DI, but he doesn't touch the ground and he can't jump in time.
Also, u-throw -> u-smash doesn't link on falcon if he DIs away at 0. It technically doesn't combo even if he doesn't DI, but he doesn't touch the ground and he can't jump in time.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
So it's one of those situations where he's not in stun but he can't do anything fast enough to avoid getting hit.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
i just tested it.
at 0 on no DI, if the falcon tries to jump out of the upthrow upsmash will hit. If he techs though he gets away.
Upthrow->upsmash offically combos on falcon (he cant tech) at 5%.
about the regrab vs falco, at 0 vs no DI, you can chain grab. but with any kind of di he hits the ground before you can get him.
upthrow ->upsmash combos on falco at 0 if his DI is anything but HARD away (cuz the hitbox is big enough to catch fair di)
at 0 on no DI, if the falcon tries to jump out of the upthrow upsmash will hit. If he techs though he gets away.
Upthrow->upsmash offically combos on falcon (he cant tech) at 5%.
about the regrab vs falco, at 0 vs no DI, you can chain grab. but with any kind of di he hits the ground before you can get him.
upthrow ->upsmash combos on falco at 0 if his DI is anything but HARD away (cuz the hitbox is big enough to catch fair di)
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Oh, sweet. Now we all know. Nice work.
Fox is broken!
Fox is broken!
unknown522
Some guy
told you...
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
i've been doing this since 2007 :3
I've recently replaced it with run past them shine turnaround usmash
JPOBS
Smash Hero
lol shuddup.
also, meh, i dont like doing things that basically fall into the mantra of
"if i leave myself open momentarily by feining attack, and he does nothing, and also doesnt have good reflexs to punish when he realizes im open for a split second, then this will work"
and run through -> fsmash falls into that category =/
Fortress | Sveet
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i use run through fsmash with marth against people like ganon when they jump in the air to counter an aerial approach. Because of how slow his moves are, you can run straight under him and be like "LOLOLOLOL" then fsmash him from behind. Doesn't really work on anyone else tho...
You should've shot more lasers.
I didn't even watch the match, but pro advice is pro
Tomacawk
Smash Master
Spacies @ 0, listed in order of usefulness starting with the most useful:
usmash
grab
shine
jab
dsmash
utilt
nothing and tech chase*
Falcon @ 0, listed in the same order:
shine jc usmash
shine wd
jab
nothing and tech chase*,#
*this can be the best or worst option, it depends on how good you are at tech chasing.
#falcon can jump out of the uthrow--if he does you should chase him through the air and nair or attack him if he whiffs an aerial while he lands
This is very true and not really talked about much. Uair on a platform at low percents leads to grab or usmash. drill reset leads to anything you want unless they SDI out. Nair/Bair lead to damage and put you in a very advantageous position to grab anything they buffer, or grab their shield, or attack again, etc.
Buffering is done by holding R or L and the cstick down (spotdodge), left or right (rollin the respective direction), or up (jump or short hop). A buffered role/spotdodge/jump will happen on the 2nd possible frame where doing that option is available, meaning if you are in hitstun/shieldstun and you're buffering, on the second frame that it is available you will perform the buffered action.
If you're whiffing grabs on people who are buffering spot dodges, then you're chasing them too slowly. You need to learn when you're there in time and when you aren't. When you're there, grab them. When you're not, do a very fast dd in front of them (out of shine range) and grab after whatever action they choose to do (until this starts working). It is imperative when tech chasing (for instance after a usmash at low percents) to foxtrot to them, rather then running, because you can dash in any direction out of a foxtrot without having to wavedash beforehand.
Alternatively, you can shffl a nair with the same timing as a grab and it will hit them if they buffer and it will hit them if you made it in time to grab but nair'd anyway.
edit-this is the prettiest post I think I've ever made...don't thank me, thank the beautiful herb
lord karn
Smash Master
All of this information is really useful.
keychain323
Smash Rookie
soo can u drillshine wavedash upsmash a marth if he doesnt di towards u?
Fortress | Sveet
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Fortress | Sveet
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i actually think fox can still do dash->jc usmash out of the waveshine and connect the usmash even if marth DIs away. I'm pretty sure tec0 was getting me with them because i always DI the shine away (marth can't ever grab the edge after a shine anyways... /wrists)
JPOBS
Smash Hero
what do you mean marth cant ever grab the ledge after a shine?
Fortress | Sveet
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F M
¯¯¯¯¯¯|
Fox goes blink
Marth goes WAAAAAAAAH and falls off the stage without grabbing the edge even if you hold in.
the only time it will work is if you're spaced so you fall off the stage at the very end of the knockback
¯¯¯¯¯¯|
Fox goes blink
Marth goes WAAAAAAAAH and falls off the stage without grabbing the edge even if you hold in.
the only time it will work is if you're spaced so you fall off the stage at the very end of the knockback
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
this always always always always happens to me, and it makes me rage.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
possibly. It depends on my fundage.
FluxWolf
Smash Lord
actually im pretty sure if you fast fall right after you leave the stage you will click to the edge... has nothing to do with spacing from the edge as long as you're falling off of it.