Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Fortress | Sveet]

^wow that actually works... idk why...

just press down as soon as you leave the stage and you'll grab the edge. It doesn't work at the exact edge, but it does work as long as you have at least a tiny bit of stage. I'll post a gif soon...

edit:

 

[JPOBS]

yea thats why i was confused by your original comment cuz i knew you could do that and i thought it was common knowledge.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i guess some people knew about it, but i had never heard of it (and i guess many other people hadn't either)

 

[iamthemicrowave]

its called the darkrain

o wait thats just what i call it

 

[Tomacawk]

well doing it with falcon is easier, you just hold in
but that is huge information I didn't know that was an option
that's gunna save me at least 20 stocks this week alone

 

[FoxLisk]

Ah, rubyiris, glad to know someone else uses that trick. I'll have to try the shine turnaround usmash thing, too.

edit: while i'm here, anyone mind looking over some videos of mine and giving me some advice? These are tourney sets:

Here I get demolished by a marth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye7oaX9UjkY&feature=related
some things I notice: when i get scared I laser, which is a terrible idea with fox. I let him take the middle too often (although I don't know how to avoid that, which is one thing I'd like help on). I get dash attacked too much: i think this is because I'm worried about grabs, so if he runs in close enough that he could go for a grab, I dont want to shield. Also I try to punish a lot of whiffed aerials but he gets in a grab or, usually, an utilt, before I can get to him. I don't know if this is me not being quick enough or a function of what times I have the opportunity.

Any advice on other problems I have, or how to clear up these issues and what my options are in particular bad situations is very much appreciated, since i'm pretty weak at that matchup.


Here's three matches from the same tourney I played against a falcon. Two of them I win convincingly, so I feel kind of rude putting them up for advice, but there's still enough going wrong on my end that I'm sure you all will be able to help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncxmo9eZJ64&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/user/UsurperKingZant#p/u/22/qvQL3u3lgl4
http://www.youtube.com/user/UsurperKingZant#p/u/21/0ZobDoucq2U
Things I notice: too much jabbing. This rarely gets punished, but could by someone who CC'd more effectively. Too many dash attacks, too, punishable for the same reason. I think overall I'm pretty good at this matchup, so I need you guys to tear me down and explain why I'm not, because I'm not really improving as is.

Here's one of me against a jiggs. He loses badly because I'm a much stronger player than he is and I play my friend's jiggs like 5 hours a day, but again, I'm sure there's something stupid I'm doing that you could point out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX53R11c0Js

Thanks in advance! And... well, if you've read my posts on the falco boards, you know I like criticism accurate and vicious, so don't hold back.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yeah i didnt even hold in when i made that gif. only pressed downb on fox then down on marth when he left the stage

 

[Cosmo!]

yeah I realized you could get to the edge after getting shined during pound 4 and I wondered how many other people knew of it

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^ bzoo said you were talking about fast falling kels' shines at the last MAS. i dont think either of us understood what that meant until last night lol

 

[JPOBS]

Foxlisk:

the most immediate thing i noticed is that you dash attack way too much. It can be a good idea in certain instances where you can sneak under his Fair like at 3:19 and you can follow it up with a upsmash that probably would have killed him, but you nair'd instead. but in general, dash attack is a pretty terrible move and you should use it less and more situationally.

Also you should work on improvig your dash dancing and wd spacing a lot more. It seems like right now you're at a stage where you know fox's DD is good but you dont know why or apply it well enough. You often do lots of small DD's and then run in with a poorly spaced move.
Two examples are 4:33 and 4:49. In the first one you scared him with you DD into Spotdodging but didnt do naything about it, instead you unnecessarily DD'ed a little longer and threw a full jumped nair into his sheild and got grabbed. then at 4:49 you DD'ed to avoid his obvious fair onto the stage but then you dash attacked and got absolutely nothing for it.
again at 4:56 he whiffs a dash attack and you punish with a nair that he spotdodged cuz you were slow on the timing. Grabbing him at any of these instances would have resulted in his death. Theres lots more instances where the same sort of thing happened but yu get the picture.

Your dash dancing should be aimed primarily at makign your opponents miss space/time their moves, and you punishing them brutally for it. You make it a lot harder on yourself when you let your opponent get away with being bad.

My last bit of advice would be to just work on improving techskill more generally. just get smoother with moving around, includign wavelands and such. You got stuck in your shine a few times and a few times you triangle hopped a few waveshines/wavedashes and it was overall kinda static. Tech skill is somethign every fox can work on.

hope this helps.

 

[FoxLisk]

JPOBS:

thanks a lot! You're definitely right that I don't use my dash dances well. When I successfully bait a dodge or whiff, I tend to get flustered and not punish in time. I also of course need more tech skill. I was maining falco until a month or two ago so my fox has a long way to go in terms of smoothness. I'll definitely work on movement and especially capitalizing on dash dance opportunities.

 

[Kanelol]

How do I shine turnaround bair :<

 

[Incronaut]

how come sometimes when i try to waveshine from the ledge onto the stage it happens and other times i just airdodge into the side of the stage to my doom?

edit: nvm, i just wavedash too fast i think

 

[unknown522]

How do I shine turnaround bair :<

repeat the process to yourself.

how come sometimes when i try to waveshine from the ledge onto the stage it happens and other times i just airdodge into the side of the stage to my doom?

You're probably dropping too low from the ledge and because of that, pressing L/R too early after the jump.


Anyways, man CC is so gay. I was testing out percents where characters can CC attacks......It's all so much higher than I expected.

 

[battousai555]

Anyways, man CC is so gay. I was testing out percents where characters can CC attacks......It's all so much higher than I expected.

Would you mind sharing your findings? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would greatly appreciate it

 

[iamthemicrowave]

yeah CC is like so good in this game, also ccing hits on platforms is ****. *****es dont know what its about. cc can do so much dumb stuff

 

[GOD!]

I was noticing the same thing about CC. If mango couldn't use it his falco game wouldn't be nearly as good against other falcos and foxes. I was trying to figure out how to beat him.. and he just CC's overly aggressive players, get a shine, and almost always gets them off the stage immediately afterwards.

 

[RaynEX]

Ah, rubyiris, glad to know someone else uses that trick. I'll have to try the shine turnaround usmash thing, too.

edit: while i'm here, anyone mind looking over some videos of mine and giving me some advice? These are tourney sets:

Here I get demolished by a marth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye7oaX9UjkY&feature=related
some things I notice: when i get scared I laser, which is a terrible idea with fox. I let him take the middle too often (although I don't know how to avoid that, which is one thing I'd like help on). I get dash attacked too much: i think this is because I'm worried about grabs, so if he runs in close enough that he could go for a grab, I dont want to shield. Also I try to punish a lot of whiffed aerials but he gets in a grab or, usually, an utilt, before I can get to him. I don't know if this is me not being quick enough or a function of what times I have the opportunity.

Any advice on other problems I have, or how to clear up these issues and what my options are in particular bad situations is very much appreciated, since i'm pretty weak at that matchup.


Here's three matches from the same tourney I played against a falcon. Two of them I win convincingly, so I feel kind of rude putting them up for advice, but there's still enough going wrong on my end that I'm sure you all will be able to help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncxmo9eZJ64&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/user/UsurperKingZant#p/u/22/qvQL3u3lgl4
http://www.youtube.com/user/UsurperKingZant#p/u/21/0ZobDoucq2U
Things I notice: too much jabbing. This rarely gets punished, but could by someone who CC'd more effectively. Too many dash attacks, too, punishable for the same reason. I think overall I'm pretty good at this matchup, so I need you guys to tear me down and explain why I'm not, because I'm not really improving as is.

Here's one of me against a jiggs. He loses badly because I'm a much stronger player than he is and I play my friend's jiggs like 5 hours a day, but again, I'm sure there's something stupid I'm doing that you could point out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX53R11c0Js

Thanks in advance! And... well, if you've read my posts on the falco boards, you know I like criticism accurate and vicious, so don't hold back.

I'll edit this post with a critique. But first,

HUH

I just had to point that out. Yeah, lasering too much and at the wrong times can work against you. But as long as you are shooting at the right times you shouldn't be worried. Just remember that cornering yourself by running to the edge and doing lasers everytime is bad. ESPECIALLY on FD. No way out.

How do I shine turnaround bair :<

Type that again, but do it slowly. The answer is within your question, young one.

I was noticing the same thing about CC. If mango couldn't use it his falco game wouldn't be nearly as good against other falcos and foxes. I was trying to figure out how to beat him.. and he just CC's overly aggressive players, get a shine, and almost always gets them off the stage immediately afterwards.

I don't see why you're singling out Mango. Alot of Falcos would be noticable easier to handle. Everybody holds down and spams that red button with Falco. Think Metaknight but with a directional input.

 

[FoxLisk]

@RaynEX

yeah i know. i laser pretty well when i'm deliberately camping a jiggs or peach or something, i just noticed a lot of times where I got scared and ran away and lasered, which results in me either getting cornered or just getting hit mid-laser, because my opponent's already on offense in those situations. i'm looking forward to your critique though.

 

[Kanelol]

Type that again, but do it slowly. The answer is within your question, young one.

Ok smart-***. I understand the concept, but there seems to be some kind of lag whenever I shine turnaround and try to JC. It seems like it just ignores my jump and goes with the regular (super laggy gay) shine cancel. Is there some sort of esoteric frame data I'm missing here regarding lag increasing from shine turnaround, or am I just not hitting my buttons hard enough?

 

[Milos]

you're getting messed up by hitlag

practice shine aerialing a comp with a level 9 handicap with you on a level 1 handicap, with damage ratio set to .5

 

[ChivalRuse]

It takes 1 frame to turn around in your shine iirc. Could be wrong, but it might be enough to extra waiting time + standard # of frames before you can jump to cause you to JC too early, such that you stay in the shine.

 

[RaynEX]

Ok smart-***. I understand the concept, but there seems to be some kind of lag whenever I shine turnaround and try to JC. It seems like it just ignores my jump and goes with the regular (super laggy gay) shine cancel. Is there some sort of esoteric frame data I'm missing here regarding lag increasing from shine turnaround, or am I just not hitting my buttons hard enough?

Sorry, didn't mean to offend you. I was only joking.

If you get stuck in your shine, its because you're trying to jump while you're turning around. (aka you're doing it too fast)

You can't jump out of your shine while you are in your turnaround animation. Its a very brief period of time, but it happens really fast and its hard to catch. The key here is to seperate the technique into steps in your head. Make sure you space out the

Shine -> turnaround -> JUMP -> Bair.

Most people turnaround and jump almost at the same time, which is what causes the shine stall thing. Once your fingers get used to getting the correct inputs, you can speed it up until it starts comboing. If you find that you can get the bair out but it isn't comboing, you're either jumping too slowly out of your shine or they d.i.ed awkwardly.

 

[EWC]

1. Shine.
2. Wait three frames for hitlag.
3. Turn around.
4. Wait three frames to finish turning.
5. Jump+ bair at the same time.

Of course you can't actually count frames, so this doesn't help much. So instead, practice the timing on a stationary ganon on the top platform of yohi's, with handicap + damage ration turned down. Start off slow, and keep doing each part faster until you reach the limit.

 

[Kanelol]

So much helpfulness

thx <3

 

[GOD!]

I don't see why you're singling out Mango. Alot of Falcos would be noticable easier to handle. Everybody holds down and spams that red button with Falco. Think Metaknight but with a directional input.

I'm singling out mango because he's completely effective with it. He also doesn't just hold down while you approach like some other falcos do, but he does hold down when they are already heading towards him in the air or have committed to an attack.

Lol. Falco is nothing like MK with directional input. And you know that.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

ahh i did not know about the shine turnaround thing, cuz i get stuck and cant jump and now i know why

another helpful post, brought to you by RAYNEX

 

[Roman.]

anyone else besides me just use the control stick the turnaround and jump?

 

[ZoSo]

I do.

 

[ChivalRuse]

That's easily the better method.

 

[RaynEX]

I'm singling out mango because he's completely effective with it. He also doesn't just hold down while you approach like some other falcos do, but he does hold down when they are already heading towards him in the air or have committed to an attack.

Lol. Falco is nothing like MK with directional input. And you know that.

Don't worry, I was just having a little fun. Haven't made a bad Mk joke in ages.

There are many players who have a brain AND know how to CC. Its a scary combination. I remember last time I played Mango in friendlies, he would DD under platforms when I was in kill percent and wait for my *run off platform and bair him* plan. He would CC my bair after making it seem like he was just running around in the open, then fsmash me. Too good.

ahh i did not know about the shine turnaround thing, cuz i get stuck and cant jump and now i know why

another helpful post, brought to you by RAYNEX

All day, every day.

anyone else besides me just use the control stick the turnaround and jump?

I use the control stick as well.

 

[Lovage]

i use the stick for everything except wavedashes on the ground. but i still use it for complex stuff thats similar to the speed of wavedash like running shield drop shine turnaround waveland.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

wtf is a shield drop, isai drop, all this noob talk

and dont tell me to check the sticky cuz IT AINT THERE

 

[FoxLisk]

shield drop: also known as shai dropping. Standing on the left side of a platform, dash right. When you want to fall through, angle your control stick down 45 degrees while hitting your shield. if done correctly, you'll fall through the platform out of your dash.

isai drop: when you land on a platform after performing any action besides a waveland and an aerial (correct me if there are more exceptions) your character kneels down like a ****** and can't fall through the platform until he stands up. this animation can be canceled by walking, however. so you immediately start a walk (not a dash) and then fall through. When done correctly, you dont even see the character start walking. Used mostly for lasering on platforms: you laser on and as you're hitting the grounds you hold forward and then immediately fall through with another laser.

noob talk: also known as mindgames -- not much of that going on here, this is actually a good thread.

 

[unknown522]

Would you mind sharing your findings? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would greatly appreciate it

CC is based on weight (which you probably know). The heavier you are, the higher percents you can CC stuff (It's not too big of a difference). So I was testing percents, mostly on marth with fox's moves. Assuming that they perfect CC:

N-air: Characters can CC it up to a rage of 70-80% (Marth at 75%)
B-air: 60-70 (Marth at 65%)
F-tilt: 110-120 (Marth at 114%)
F-smash: 50-60 (Marth at 53%)
U-tilt: 35-45 (Marth at 40%)
U-air: 25-35 (Marth at 33%)
U-smash: 15-30 (Marth at 23%)
D-air: They can only CC it if you get 1 hit.
D-tilt: 50-60 (Marth at 54)
D-smash: 85-100 (Marth at 91%)
Jab: 200.....something percent...
Side-B (air): Marth can CC it up to 130%
Side-B (ground): Marth can CC it up to 165%
Up-B: Marth can CC up to 54%
Shine: lol, shine. I find it hard to combo if they CC the shine...
Dash attack: Marth can CC it up to 106%

Jiggs can CC your u-smash and rest up to 18%.......

 

[battousai555]

CC is based on weight (which you probably know). The heavier you are, the higher percents you can CC stuff (It's not too big of a difference). So I was testing percents, mostly on marth with fox's moves. Assuming that they perfect CC:

N-air: Characters can CC it up to a rage of 70-80% (Marth at 75%)
B-air: 60-70 (Marth at 65%)
F-tilt: 110-120 (Marth at 114%)
F-smash: 50-60 (Marth at 53%)
U-tilt: 35-45 (Marth at 40%)
U-air: 25-35 (Marth at 33%)
U-smash: 15-30 (Marth at 23%)
D-air: They can only CC it if you get 1 hit.
D-tilt: 50-60 (Marth at 54)
D-smash: 85-100 (Marth at 91%)
Jab: 200.....something percent...
Side-B (air): Marth can CC it up to 130%
Side-B (ground): Marth can CC it up to 165%
Up-B: Marth can CC up to 54%
Shine: lol, shine. I find it hard to combo if they CC the shine...
Dash attack: Marth can CC it up to 106%

Jiggs can CC your u-smash and rest up to 18%.......

TY! Yeah, all of those percents are a LOT higher than I expected.

 

[JPOBS]

Lol i hate it when Peach perfect CC's my upsmash and i get dsmashed in the face lol

 

[RaynEX]

What's the difference between "perfect" CCing and just holding down until you get hit? Do you mean just timing the crouch perfectly? If that is what you mean...I didn't know that timing the CC made any difference.

 

[unknown522]

pretty much what I mean by perfect is just holding straight down, because if you press down to late, you will ASDI down instead, so CCing won't work as long. Also if you're holding the control stick to the side slightly, then the CC won't be as strong.

 

[JPOBS]

yea, technically you can "CC" out of anything, like just start holding down when you think you're going to be hit and you can input ASDI downwards even when you're in the middle of other animations and at low percents you're knockback wil be reduced and you can punish. Thats what most people know as a CC

A perfect crouch cancel is actually a LOT better. Its when you're literally sitting there crouching BEFORE you get hit. Its so ridiculous. i remeber one time i was messing with it and i was surviivng Fox's upsmas on yoshis as Doc at like 100% or something stupid like that :/