Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Grmo]

Think about your approaches. Don't just run in with several pre-computed, mechanical responses, because that will never work...even if you're playing Fox. It's incredibly important to be able to be conscious of what you're doing and come up with something new and situationally appropriate. You can plan all you want, but that method is ineffective. If you want to get better at thinking and reacting, pick up a low tier for a while.

 

[RaynEX]

How do you get around a Marth that does a lot of retreating aerials mixed up with jabs/fsmash? (think like, Mew2king style)

Like, retreating fh bair -> fair, and then I'll go in for a nair or grab, and they'll jab me. Would it be best to just run in and WD/DD out?

Do what PC Chris does and just run right up to them with a sliding shield. If they react with a jab/fsmash you wavedash out of shield and ****.

THIS.

Use platforms to bait and approach. You can find ways around his hitboxes by running off them and bairing or dropping through them and doing more stuff. If you're on FD, you have to start lasering. Jumping into his grab space isn't a good idea at all. Don't start throwing out nair and stuff until you're at close range.

Think about your approaches. Don't just run in with several pre-computed, mechanical responses, because that will never work...even if you're playing Fox. It's incredibly important to be able to be conscious of what you're doing and come up with something new and situationally appropriate. You can plan all you want, but that method is ineffective. If you want to get better at thinking and reacting, pick up a low tier for a while.

Thats like what I say except its alot more pretty.

 

[Grmo]

I like being pretty. I'm not a Peach main for nothing.

oh **** did I just say that in the Fox boards?

no one will listen to me now

actually the only reason I main Peach is because I can't move my hands fast without ending up in a lot of pain. My Fox is marginally better than all my other characters, so now I just serve as a vending machine for information.

 

[RaynEX]

*puts quarter in*

 

[KirbyKaze]

*steals raynex's quarters*

 

[EC_Joey]

actually the only reason I main Peach is because I can't move my hands fast without ending up in a lot of pain.

Got arthritis?

 

[Miggz]

Oh you no good thief! =P

 

[Grmo]

Got arthritis?

Nope. I wrecked some muscles playing guitar too much and there's still scar tissue. It's a lot better now than it was like, a month ago. I can actually play Fox now, but I don't in case I tear them while they're healing.

 

[RaynEX]

scar tissue is a ****ing awesome song. Chili's are one of my all-time favourite bands.

 

[Grmo]

I wasn't talking about the song D:

God Grainex, what a noob

Anyway back on topic. I need you to feed my existence as a vending machine by giving me more information. What's the best way to kill Sheik? (as in, vertical or edgeguarding).

 

[EC_Joey]

I don't think there's really a "best way" to kill Sheik, it's more what you feel comfortable doing.

Edgeguarding Sheik is a good way to take her down. After getting her off the stage with whatever move, edgehogging and forcing her to recover onto the stage leads to easy up smashes or uairs. Or you can shinespike like that guy Zelgadaise. I hear that guy's really good.

On the other hand, getting Sheik above you is good because she doesn't have many options when you're right below her. Upthrows, waveshine to up smash, uptilt, downtilt, etc. When she's falling, her choices are nair, air dodge, or bair, but those are easily punished if you can anticipate it, and you have her flying up in the air again. Or you can just keep uairing, but they usually catch on if you do too many and they airdodge out of the way.

Just do what comes most easily to you. Low % shinespikes are ****, because you need to rack up % before you can kill vertically.

 

[Grmo]

Yeah I guess, thanks. I usually just drillshined them and hungryboxed them with bair until they felt like recovering properly, in which case I was kind of screwed. Up kick is fun.

up kick attack

lol why does that sound so funny

 

[chize]

whenever i try uair after thunders, it never connects, i try to do it immediately, does it need to be timed differently? how should it be spaced? should i not fastfall?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

don't wait for them to get up, jab and immediately sh and start your uair. if the first hit hits the invincibility thats okay, its the 2nd hit that starts all your combos.

 

[KirbyKaze]

To kill Sheik just back air her off the stage and edgehog and then ledgehop back air on her until she gets to 90 and then U-smash her. If she DIs ridiculously and she can come back with her double jump + air-dodge or just double jump then hit her with an invincible back air and ff land on the stage so if she does get past it with invincibility you can shine / d-smash / back air again / etc.

 

[Bets]

I wasn't talking about the song D:

God Grainex, what a noob

Anyway back on topic. I need you to feed my existence as a vending machine by giving me more information. What's the best way to kill Sheik? (as in, vertical or edgeguarding).

if you can get a dair>shine in you can follow up with uthrow > uair or upsmash. I'm not sure if its the best way but to me it feels like the easiest way.

 

[Miggz]

Nope. I wrecked some muscles playing guitar too much and there's still scar tissue. It's a lot better now than it was like, a month ago. I can actually play Fox now, but I don't in case I tear them while they're healing.

I hope you feel better soon, buddy. ^^

 

[Doggalina]

I played against my first ever competent Falco today and got ***** (got 4 stocked a few times at first, but then was averaging about 2 stock). The main thing that shut me down was those god **** lasers. They completely **** my style of play (DD camp, slow the game down, space, punish). I tried to use platforms to the best of my ability, but I don't think I can win in that matchup without doing some damage on the main level (specifically with grabs. Getting grabs is what helped the most, but it was really hard to get inside to do that).

Some things that were hurting me:

• Dthrow techchasing. Jesus, I got ***** by this. I'd tech, and he'd immediately throw a laser at me and get on my *** again.
• Couldn't get grabs due to lasers.
• I was missing techs during combos. This is probably just a matter of focus and remembering the 20 frame no tech window after hitting L.

I also had trouble against Ganon (somewhat), Samus, and Sheik (on FD), but that was mostly just lack of experience. Once I play those matchups more, I think things will clear themselves up. Gotta get to more tourneys.

Upon reflection, the only matchups that I feel confident in are Marth, Fox (kinda), Peach (kinda), and Falcon (kinda) simply because I either have lots of experience against these characters and can therefore edgeguard them or I have played as these characters enough that I know their nuances.

tl;dr: I need more experience.

EDIT: My DI sucks, too (I don't survival DI as much as I should and I probably have bad DI in combos). Any tricks to learning how to DI other than just consciously doing it until it's subconscious? I may just make it my one big focus for a while until I really get it down.

 

[Tomacawk]

Falco's dthrow can't be teched. It's a pseudo chainthrow--just di down+away and you should get far enough away where he can't dsmash you or something, so I'm not sure what you're talking about on that.
getting grabs around lasers is hard, nair/dair->grab is the way to go in this matchup
it's a 60frame window from when you hit l/r to when you can try to tech again, not 20. and if you're l canceling by pushing the button all the way down then that counts as a tech attempt too, so be aware of that
I have no samuses to practice against so I can't help you there. I "know" how the ganon matchup goes, but every tournament I've ever been to I've been knocked out by a ganon, so I'll hold my tongue =P
and sheik just got explained 2-4 pages back, so you should read up there
you could try practicing SDI at onnett with the cars or the claptraps @ japes or i think even the cars @ mute city
you really have to force yourself to think about DI constantly until it's 2nd nature

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

tomacawk wtf are you smoking?

it sounds like this falco was just out of your league. don't fret this is a good thing. learning to beat better players is how you become a better player.

first thing i recommend is learning to platform waveland 100% all day every day with every character.

second be patient. a camper's main goal isnt to camp. their goal is to get you to make a mistake. take your time and give them some pressure. if you jump onto a platform wait there and see what they do. falco can't laser at middle platform level without jumping on the platform (or doing forwards high laser fast fall) so you know you are safe in your reaction zone. if he jumps to laser more, fall down and run under his platform. this puts him completely off balance. he has to either try to attack you (difficult through platform) or retreat over the top/run off to the middle.

good players will be guessing ahead based on what you did before so he might not be so apt to laser on the platforms the next time, so you have to keep being creative.

third thing, learn to space bairs. learn to combine your platform skills with your bair spacing. this will help when the lasers stop and he starts the actual battle.

 

[Grmo]

I'm against giving situational advice, since it programs people to just do things automatically, and it's stupid.

Anyway, as for learning to DI, just try it in friendlies. Let them combo you and try to DI stuff. It's friendlies after all, so you don't have to win. I mean, I play random in friendlies. I use Zelda and Mewtwo and crap like that. Be like me :D

Except with practicing DI not useless characters.

 

[ComboTurtle]

quick question, i do my reverse waveshines by turning around in my shine, i havent had any problems doing this, however i dont see any good foxes doing it like this, they just shine then wavedash and turn around after, that way is obviously slightly faster due to the fact u dont have to turn around in the shine, but what i was wondering is there any reason no one else turns around in their shine, it seems almost just as fast and a whole lot easier...

 

[Lovage]

raynex
zhu recorded like 3-4 pretty good sets of me today
when they're up you are going to critique

 

[SpaceFalcon]

I got two new MM's uploading tomorrow.. you better critique those to =^_o=

 

[RaynEX]

Will do.

I need to go to bed.

 

[Grmo]

quick question, i do my reverse waveshines by turning around in my shine, i havent had any problems doing this, however i dont see any good foxes doing it like this, they just shine then wavedash and turn around after, that way is obviously slightly faster due to the fact u dont have to turn around in the shine, but what i was wondering is there any reason no one else turns around in their shine, it seems almost just as fast and a whole lot easier...

It takes practice and a lot of tech skill to pull off, which naturally pushes people away from it. More importantly, I don't think there's a practical situation where you ever need to use it, because you've got better options. Not so say that you shouldn't use it; that's just why no one uses it. I like it because it's new and cool and no one uses it, so it's something that you can surprise people with.

 

[ComboTurtle]

It takes practice and a lot of tech skill to pull off, which naturally pushes people away from it. More importantly, I don't think there's a practical situation where you ever need to use it, because you've got better options. Not so say that you shouldn't use it; that's just why no one uses it. I like it because it's new and cool and no one uses it, so it's something that you can surprise people with.

i dont think its new.. i find it alot easier as you can do the shine and then sorta hold diagonal down and the way u wanna shine and then shift between a point on the control to do perfect wavedashes and walk or shine, idk i guess it just comes down to preference raynex or someone say something on it.

edit: and you cant really surprise anyone with it cause you really have the same options as if you hadnt turned around in your shine.

 

[Doggalina]

Tomacawk, it's a 40 frame window. The 20 frames is the tech window. 40 is the can't tech again window.

Whenever you press L, it enables you to tech in the 20 following frames, but it also prevents you completely from using L to tech again in the following 40 frames.

it sounds like this falco was just out of your league. don't fret this is a good thing. learning to beat better players is how you become a better player.

first thing i recommend is learning to platform waveland 100% all day every day with every character.

...(good advice)...

Yeah, I was getting overwhelmed by Ray Chun's Falco at your tourney. I actually am able to platform waveland really well with Fox, but I was so overwhelmed by Falco that I got single-minded and didn't think to use platforms.

 

[Tomacawk]

tomacawk wtf are you smoking?

marijuana. what was wrong with what I said besides the frames?

 

[RaynEX]

quick question, i do my reverse waveshines by turning around in my shine, i havent had any problems doing this, however i dont see any good foxes doing it like this, they just shine then wavedash and turn around after, that way is obviously slightly faster due to the fact u dont have to turn around in the shine, but what i was wondering is there any reason no one else turns around in their shine, it seems almost just as fast and a whole lot easier...

There are really only two points I can give you, on why not to do it:

A: Its alot slower than you think. Vs. Marth for example, you should be able to reverse waveshine grab and usmash if you DON'T turn around. If you do, I think it slows it down to the point where Marth can actually buffer roll or sidestep out of grabs sometimes. I know for a fact, that if you turn around while waveshining him backwards, you can't combo into the usmash anymore.

B: People tend to get stuck in their shine, because they try to wavedash while Fox is in his turning around animation. If this isn't a problem for you, ignore this point.

When I first started playing, and mastering all of Fox's techniques - I had this huge option pool to choose from. When it came down to how I should waveshine when not facing my enemy, waveshining backwards was the obvious choice. Its faster, looks cooler, and is easier to do. Even if you don't want to use it, I always suggest learning everything you can possibly do with your character. I'm pretty sure after practicing and making it one of those moves you can do effortlessly, you'll want to start using it too. BTW, I say its easier to do - because the timing is more lenient. On the turnaround shine, you have to wait till after he turns to wavedash and thats where everyone screws up. With reverse waveshining you skip all that.

It takes practice and a lot of tech skill to pull off, which naturally pushes people away from it. More importantly, I don't think there's a practical situation where you ever need to use it, because you've got better options. Not so say that you shouldn't use it; that's just why no one uses it. I like it because it's new and cool and no one uses it, so it's something that you can surprise people with.

It doesn't take much practice at all. If you can already waveshine, then you are 95% of the way there. Now just hit left or right on the c-stick while in your shine then wavedash. It is extremely practical in fact, about as practical as the reverse waveshine. Simply because they are fundamentally the exact same technique, but with minor differences. The small drop is speed is enough to justify not turning around anymore, imo. Learn the faster way, is my advice. Once you have both under your belt, just pick whichever you like best.

 

[Doggalina]

marijuana. what was wrong with what I said besides the frames?

I don't think anything was. You were right about not being able to tech it. In trying to tech it, I ended up DIing away.

 

[SpaceFalcon]

I got some new matches up! Really trying to improve for a tournament coming up bunch of **** monsters gonna be there.. their pretty decent matches all advice/critique appreciated, RayneX I'm looking at you >:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98mObybOozw&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3S_cJcoFAU&feature=channel_page

Here is me playing in December, so I've obviously got a little better. But never enough eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF3t...5602790C3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4

 

[soap]

the only time i turn around in the shine before wavedash is for the edgehog trick.

Ive been trying to do it out of a drillshine on people but the hitlag messes up my timing completely

 

[EC_Joey]

Jman beat Mango's Falco with his Fox in grand finals yesterday.

I saw it in person, but I want to watch those vids...

They split, so grand finals didn't really mean anything, but Jman went super-saiyan.

 

[FastFox]

K, so I'm probably going to be absent for a while. Issues with the computer.

Raynex, look after the forum, report any shinanigans to me.

thx gaiz

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Yeah I saw those vids, Jman is kinda nasty.

By kinda, I mean SSJ4

 

[EC_Joey]

Any tips on shining out of shield? Jman and Mango are both ridiculously good at it. I usually don't bother with it, which might have something to do with why I'm not good at dealing with shield pressure. It's just difficult for me to get my thumb from the Y button to the B button fast enough.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

use C stick to jump out
then immediately press Down and B. its tons faster.

 

[EC_Joey]

Wow, I can't believe I didn't think of that.

Thanks, I'll definitely be trying this next chance I get.

 

[RaynEX]

I got some new matches up! Really trying to improve for a tournament coming up bunch of **** monsters gonna be there.. their pretty decent matches all advice/critique appreciated, RayneX I'm looking at you >:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98mObybOozw&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3S_cJcoFAU&feature=channel_page

Here is me playing in December, so I've obviously got a little better. But never enough eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF3t...5602790C3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4

I'll check these after I'm done my hw.

K, so I'm probably going to be absent for a while. Issues with the computer.

Raynex, look after the forum, report any shinanigans to me.

thx gaiz

Will do. later man.