Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Doggalina]

Thanks for the advice, Miggz. I think I just need to play simpler against Foxes. The main reason why my Fox dittos are always so close, even against people who don't really play Fox, is that when I get grabbed, I'm pretty much guaranteed to eat an usmash, unless I escape that with some good DI. I just have to play calmer, I think.

 

[Toobz]

Hi all. I've run into a bit of a wall with fox. I have two problems. I'm not asking for solutions, because i know with enough practice I will be able to fix both problems. But I want to know how important each of the techs is.

The first thing I can't seem to do consistently is waveshine backwards. I am going to practice this one for sure, as it will add some good mindgames to my fox. How important is it though in general? Do you use it a lot?

The second is shorthopping out of the shine. I end up jump canceling my shine with the control stick, and its pretty tough for me to short hop out of it whenever I want. I have to actually THINK about doing it in order to do it (if that makes any sense). Is this tech important for anything besides flash? The shield pressure with Shine-nair-shine looks cool, but is it really effective?

Thanks.

 

[Milos]

short hopping out of shine is very useful, for pressure and approaching, and really anything.

waveshining backwards? there are several techs you could be referring to, please elaborate?

 

[Doggalina]

I have a problem waveshining backwards sometimes. I end up turning around in my shine and doing nothing. Just slow it down a little. It won't be as quick, but it'll work.

I never short hop out of shine, but I tend to be pretty conservative out of shine. I waveshine and follow up if I hit. If they shield, I either waveshine through them and turn around and grab (this looks sexy as hell) or I full jump away onto platforms.

Of course, having more options never hurt anybody.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

when you waveshien backwards just make sure you jc the shien first then move the control stick.

 

[RaynEX]

I apologize in advance for any typing errors you may find in this post. I just started writing and didn't bother to go back and check. lol

I don't get how you wave dash far enough to thunder combo fox + falco or drill shine marth any help (do I do the mew2king angle)

There are two things you need to remember when attempting to do a thunders combo.

Either A: Go far with your wavedash (i.e.: a perfect WD)

or B: wavedash out of your shine so fast it doesn't matter how far they go, because you'll hit them before they slide away.

The biggest problem for most people when doing thunders is the speed of the waveshine. You're probably just spending too much time in your shine, so when you wavedash out Fox is alot farther out of your reach. Speed up your waveshines, and make sure you angle your control stick 'almost' completely horizontal for that perfect, sexy *** WD.

Thanks for the advice, Miggz. I think I just need to play simpler against Foxes. The main reason why my Fox dittos are always so close, even against people who don't really play Fox, is that when I get grabbed, I'm pretty much guaranteed to eat an usmash, unless I escape that with some good DI. I just have to play calmer, I think.

Fox dittos are really random. Landing almost any solid hit can drastically change the tide of the battle. A grab, shine, usmash or tech chase opportunity will easily leave you with one less stock. Evaluate your Fox in dittos based on how Fox is played by the top level players.

Do you edge-guard opponent Fox with a high rate of success at any percent? Shines at low percent and shines/aerials at higher ones. A big aspect of this is move selection; you might try to bair or something when your opponent is at 20. While that may lead to a shine-spike anyways, I hope you understand what I mean.

Do you get 50% or Death combos on your opponent Fox from your grabs? If not, then pick it up son. Even if you aren't technical, its insanely easy to uthrow usmash, tech-chase do it again. You can get creative with it, but bottom line is - you need to do massive damage everytime you land a solid hit like a grab or shine. Even when you knock them down; you need to make them AFRAID to approach you. Afraid to whiff moves into your space and afraid when they get knocked down. This is what Fox dittos are like at higher play. It becomes really easy to read your opponent when it comes to teching, or even spacing this way - simply because they want to get away from you really badly. So much that they will probably forget about varying their d.i. or teching patterns.

Do you always find yourself getting grabbed first? Thrown off the stage easily? The problem here is, you're probably just approaching too much. Don't always make the first move, and you should be fine. Remember to d.i. down and away from nairs/utilts/usmashes after uthrow to avoid getting super combo'd.

Hi all. I've run into a bit of a wall with fox. I have two problems. I'm not asking for solutions, because i know with enough practice I will be able to fix both problems. But I want to know how important each of the techs is.

The first thing I can't seem to do consistently is waveshine backwards. I am going to practice this one for sure, as it will add some good mindgames to my fox. How important is it though in general? Do you use it a lot?

The second is shorthopping out of the shine. I end up jump canceling my shine with the control stick, and its pretty tough for me to short hop out of it whenever I want. I have to actually THINK about doing it in order to do it (if that makes any sense). Is this tech important for anything besides flash? The shield pressure with Shine-nair-shine looks cool, but is it really effective?

Thanks.

Waveshining backwards is extremely important. I mean, you can always learn to turnaround in the shine THEN wd, but waveshining backwards will make your life easier.

Some general uses:

-If you overshoot dair or nair and hit them, or go through their shield and land behind them.

-If you land on top of your opponent with uair or dair and land with your back facing them.

-If you do an aerial into your opponent's shield, sometimes you can mix it up and WD backwards to avoid grabs. Keep in mind, shine doesn't have enough hitstun on their shield to keep you safe, but most people stay in shield too long anyways so you can get away with it.

-If you are pressuring a character that doesn't fall from the shine - near an edge. If you land a bair on them, then shine, you can wd backwards and hog or shine again (assuming they d.i. poorly and fall off the stage). Not extremely useful but still viable.

-Overall, techskill augments your game development and in-game capabilities.

JC shining is really useful too, though imo it isn't as universally applicable as waveshining backwards is. The problem is, nair shine is really the only tournament technique you can draw from it. Everything else is, as you said, for technical flash. Shine shdls etc etc. I do have one other purpose for it, besides nair shine though.

-On shields, you can SH out of shine and d.i. forward, going behind them. From here you can utilt or waveshine backwards then they drop their shield, maybe even turnaround grab/usmash.

I actually like how you brought up the JC shining though. I've actually never thought about its purposes, or how many/few of them there were. Now that I've talked about it, I realize it is only good for 1 or 2 things. But, like I said before, techskill augments your already developing playstyle. Better to learn your character inside and out, than to not bother at all.

I have a problem waveshining backwards sometimes. I end up turning around in my shine and doing nothing. Just slow it down a little. It won't be as quick, but it'll work.

I never short hop out of shine, but I tend to be pretty conservative out of shine. I waveshine and follow up if I hit. If they shield, I either waveshine through them and turn around and grab (this looks sexy as hell) or I full jump away onto platforms.

Of course, having more options never hurt anybody.

Better players would grab you after you waveshined their shield. WDing is extremely laggy, and your opponents should be able to grab you before you go through them. JungleFever answered your question about waveshining backwards already. Just angle the stick after the jump, and not before. If you angle the stick too early you'll turn around in your shine, so when you try to jump you won't be able to because you'll be in the "turn-around" animation of the shine.

 

[PCHU]

RaynEX, saw your vid.
Awesome stuff, looks like I still have farther to go.

As for combos, I do well, it's just that when it comes to opponents DIing backwards, I have trouble getting to them to keep the combo going.
I've gotten a few 0-deaths on my friend, but she doesn't really know advanced play at all.
But one thing, she counters so freakin' well.
Not to mention her game style is rather awkward.

How do I properly fight Roy?
Waveshines don't do much good, since Roy falls over a good majority of the time.
That takes out a few of my options, since even though I can waveshine, I don't know if it's the max distance.
As for aerial combos, I can work with those.
It's getting much easier to work my opponent from one end of the stage to the other.
But even so...

I need advice on basic strategy.
I have trouble approaching.
A lot of trouble.
But only if my opponent isn't moving.
With Fox, it's okay.
I have SHDL as pressure.
But with CF, I freaked.
I started wavedashing like crazy, SHFFLing, and maybe a moonwalk or two was done.
I cannot stand fighting a stubborn opponent; my best approaches are usually anticipating theirs, forming mine into a counter.

That's it.

 

[Toobz]

Ok I'll practice waveshining backwards. I'll also play with short-hopping out of shine, but I won't get serious with it until I've mastered backwards waveshining. Thanks for the tips RayneX, good sh*t. Fox boards are made of win because of helpful people like you.

 

[Meneks]

RaynEX, saw your vid.
Awesome stuff, looks like I still have farther to go.

As for combos, I do well, it's just that when it comes to opponents DIing backwards, I have trouble getting to them to keep the combo going.
I've gotten a few 0-deaths on my friend, but she doesn't really know advanced play at all.
But one thing, she counters so freakin' well.
Not to mention her game style is rather awkward.

How do I properly fight Roy?
Waveshines don't do much good, since Roy falls over a good majority of the time.
That takes out a few of my options, since even though I can waveshine, I don't know if it's the max distance.
As for aerial combos, I can work with those.
It's getting much easier to work my opponent from one end of the stage to the other.
But even so...

I need advice on basic strategy.
I have trouble approaching.
A lot of trouble.
But only if my opponent isn't moving.
With Fox, it's okay.
I have SHDL as pressure.
But with CF, I freaked.
I started wavedashing like crazy, SHFFLing, and maybe a moonwalk or two was done.
I cannot stand fighting a stubborn opponent; my best approaches are usually anticipating theirs, forming mine into a counter.

That's it.

I was actually able to thunders combo a roy before..

"I have trouble approaching."

If your having trouble wait for an opening DASHDANCE switch between loong and short dashdances.
If your opponent is shielding go for the grab, if your opponent is open go for an nair, if your open is open and they are waveshinable go for the drill shine combos.

 

[RaynEX]

How do I properly fight Roy?
Waveshines don't do much good, since Roy falls over a good majority of the time.
That takes out a few of my options, since even though I can waveshine, I don't know if it's the max distance.
As for aerial combos, I can work with those.
It's getting much easier to work my opponent from one end of the stage to the other.
But even so...

I need advice on basic strategy.
I have trouble approaching.
A lot of trouble.
But only if my opponent isn't moving.
With Fox, it's okay.
I have SHDL as pressure.
But with CF, I freaked.
I started wavedashing like crazy, SHFFLing, and maybe a moonwalk or two was done.
I cannot stand fighting a stubborn opponent; my best approaches are usually anticipating theirs, forming mine into a counter.

That's it.

It is possible to thunders Roy. But because the shine sends him pretty far, its easy for him to d.i. away and escape the range of your jab. Counter this by making your waveshines faster and your wavedashes longer.

Vs. Roy spam grab. Uthrow uair ***** him and combos into itself (uairX4 ). Roy is at that weight where uthrow anything will destroy him. After nair, try going straight into grab instead of shining. If you do land nair and shine, don't go for the jab. Instead, focus on trying to tech-chase opponent Roy and grab or usmash to continue the pressure. Its not always about smooth combos. Sometimes knocking them down is all you really need.

Basic strategy? Try these out:

-Dashdancing and looking for lag. If they aren't attacking or approaching, shoot lasers and gradually move in. When you get close enough, Try to fake with wavelands or WDs, or even just running straight past them. Then once you're inside their space grab or nair and pressure them for damage.

-Keep your back turning at mid->close range and land with fullhop bairs. To mix it up, when you get close try doing an empty full hop and wavelanding on the way down. Your opponent may try to do something, thinking you will bair. If they shield, then that is enough time for you to run in a apply pressure or grab.

-Try jumping in deep (or low) on your opponent, then double jumping out really late so they grab or do a move and whiff. After the double jump fastfall with aerial and punish.

-Run in and shield. If you block a move, shield grab! If not, nair out of shield, or WD out of shield (going forwards) and pour on the pressure. Man I'm using the word pressure alot.

-Falling uair? It can set up combos really well. You watched my vid, right?.

Ok I'll practice waveshining backwards. I'll also play with short-hopping out of shine, but I won't get serious with it until I've mastered backwards waveshining. Thanks for the tips RayneX, good sh*t. Fox boards are made of win because of helpful people like you.

Glad I could help. You were like the only support I had when I first started going to the U.S. tournies, besides my Canadian friends. I really appreciate how you had my back when people thought I was a passing fad.

I have toobz in my fridge right now actually. Yogurt ftw.

 

[EC_Joey]

I need advice on basic strategy.
I have trouble approaching.
A lot of trouble.
But only if my opponent isn't moving.

This doesn't make sense to me. You have trouble approaching if your opponent isn't moving? I would think it'd be easier to space moves on a stationary target, not harder.

 

[Toobz]

Glad I could help. You were like the only support I had when I first started going to the U.S. tournies, besides my Canadian friends. I really appreciate how you had my back when people thought I was a passing fad.

I have toobz in my fridge right now actually. Yogurt ftw.

LMao! Word, man. I actually have another quick question. I've been told that I use bair too much and it is the reason I get grabbed so much by marth. Apparently it's "too slow" and should not be used against a shield. I may just be partial to bair, but I don't think that its THAT much slower than nair when l-canceled. Maybe I just have trouble l-canceling it sometimes? Would you use bair on a shielding opponent knowing that if l-canceled you can shine before they could grab you? Is that even true?

Sorry for such a sh*tty confusing post, but I'm too lazy to edit it.

 

[Milos]

bair closer to the ground the shine will come out faster and you might be able to shield poke them

 

[Miggz]

Not to mention you have to space your bairs. Attack with the tip of your foot. ^^

Do you use C stick for your aerials?

If not, I recommend it. ^^

 

[Toobz]

Yeah I do c-stick them. I try and space them, but looking back I think I just use them at the wrong times. When I'm falling from the sky after getting hit up there, my opponent is dashdancing etc below me. He gets under me somehow and shields as I come down with bair. Then he shield grabs -> raep, or dashdances just out of range -> raep. Maybe I shouldn't bair when I'm falling back to the stage? If so, what would be a good way to recover from that situation? I feel pressured to attack when he is below me, thats why I use bair as I'm falling.

 

[Miggz]

Woah, that is such a common Fox habit. I use to do that when I first picked up Fox. But instead of coming down with a bair, I simply land and dash away or do a quick up tilt. There is a chance the up tilt will hit the Marth who is coming at you. So, it if does connect just juggle him. ^^

 

[Milos]

or land and shine because you can either get away from them and shoot lasers, or if it connects follow up with u throw uair or anything since it's a shine lol

 

[RaynEX]

LMao! Word, man. I actually have another quick question. I've been told that I use bair too much and it is the reason I get grabbed so much by marth. Apparently it's "too slow" and should not be used against a shield. I may just be partial to bair, but I don't think that its THAT much slower than nair when l-canceled. Maybe I just have trouble l-canceling it sometimes? Would you use bair on a shielding opponent knowing that if l-canceled you can shine before they could grab you? Is that even true?

Sorry for such a sh*tty confusing post, but I'm too lazy to edit it.

Bair doesn't give any more/less shield stun than nair does.

Bair isn't too slow, either. If you bair and lcancel it with the right timing (like any of Fox's other aerials), you can shine before grabs come out. So yes, you can shine before they grab you.

I don't space my bairs on Marth. I always aim for the strong hit close to his body. If you space it on their shield, your shine will miss and they will grab you with that gay grab range. I'd say to space bair vs. Sheik or Jiggs. Characters that can't super grab you if shine misses.

 

[Miggz]

Oh yes, true that!

As a Marth main I should have remembered the gay grab range.

You know how gay his range is? Ok so I was Marth an I moved a Sheik(in training mode) far enough that I couldn't grab her. But I stood there and I kept grabbing...and about three tries later I did this weird "get over here" grab, scorpion style. I was like yeah, Marth is too funny. lol

*Don't kill me fellow Fox players for ranting bout another character, I'm still one of you*

 

[Toobz]

This one guy i play with pwns the hell out of me with marth. Its just stupid. I beat him in one match the last time I played with him, out about 20+. That pivot grab is nasty.

 

[Tomacawk]

i can't waveshine backwards when i have hitstun on my shine, so what I do is turn in my shine then WD forwards
i can do it fast enough to catch sheik with a usmash, so it works for me. don't forget there are always alternatives (can't SHDL? try using up on the control stick, etc)

 

[halcyon.days]

This one guy i play with pwns the hell out of me with marth. Its just stupid. I beat him in one match the last time I played with him, out about 20+. That pivot grab is nasty.

Play patiently, force him to come to you since you have LAZERS.

Honestly, Fox vs Marth (and vice versa) is probably one of my favourite match ups.

Speaking of which... when can a Marth get out of uthrow -> uair? I ask because it'd be good to know from a fox perspective, but also since I play Marth a lot as well

 

[EC_Joey]

If the Marth knows how to smash DI your uair, he can get out of it at almost any %. If you're talking about when Marth can DI out of range of your double jump uair, I'd imagine by the time he has enough % to do that, he should already have been killed by an uair/upsmash.

 

[Toobz]

Play patiently, force him to come to you since you have LAZERS.

Honestly, Fox vs Marth (and vice versa) is probably one of my favourite match ups.

Speaking of which... when can a Marth get out of uthrow -> uair? I ask because it'd be good to know from a fox perspective, but also since I play Marth a lot as well

Yeah this marth smash DIs 80% of my uairs. I think its just a matter of him being a lot better than me all around. I'll catch up to him eventually.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

well DI only, its around 90%, give or take some based on fox's skill. M2K used to be able to hit them well into kill range no matter what your DI, but i've never seen any other tournament fox be that consistant. Basically if you DI you should be fairly safe.

edit:: also its a LOT easier to SDI out of uair if you DI away then SDI back.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

If you start noticing he is DI'ing your uair...bair. its ****.

 

[idea]

Oh yes, true that!

As a Marth main I should have remembered the gay grab range.

You know how gay his range is? Ok so I was Marth an I moved a Sheik(in training mode) far enough that I couldn't grab her. But I stood there and I kept grabbing...and about three tries later I did this weird "get over here" grab, scorpion style. I was like yeah, Marth is too funny. lol

*Don't kill me fellow Fox players for ranting bout another character, I'm still one of you*

i wonder if his grab moves him ever so slightly forward?

 

[NES n00b]

i wonder if his grab moves him ever so slightly forward?

Or it could be that the hitbox of sheik doesn't stand still so she moves ever so slightly foward.

 

[EC_Joey]

Or it could be he was playing on Dream Land 64 and the tree started blowing.

 

[thumbswayup]

Or it could be you're the righteous man and I'm the shepherd and it's the world that's evil and selfish.

 

[MegaMarthMan]

How are you supposed to know that you did a perfect wave shine. I think I can do it well.

 

[Tee ay eye]

How do you get around a Marth that does a lot of retreating aerials mixed up with jabs/fsmash? (think like, Mew2king style)

Like, retreating fh bair -> fair, and then I'll go in for a nair or grab, and they'll jab me. Would it be best to just run in and WD/DD out?

 

[EC_Joey]

Do what PC Chris does and just run right up to them with a sliding shield. If they react with a jab/fsmash you wavedash out of shield and ****.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Well, ****, first of all, what do you do against a Marth who covers his aerials with jabs, let alone retreating? I've never really played anyone who did this (except Taj, but I have several other problems to worry about facing him >__>) so I've never really addressed it.

 

[EC_Joey]

What do you approach him with when he's doing retreating aerials and jabs?

 

[Tee ay eye]

Nairs, grabs, shines.

 

[EC_Joey]

Don't throw out a nair or a grab hoping that it'll hit him as he's getting back to the ground. Force him to do something. If he's jabbing after he lands, shield it and punish. If you're close enough when he jabs your shield you can up smash out of shield. If you're finding it too difficult to approach him just lasercamp and punish his approaches.

 

[Doggalina]

Better players would grab you after you waveshined their shield. WDing is extremely laggy, and your opponents should be able to grab you before you go through them.

Yeah, I only do that when I feel really bold. I usually just full jump onto a platform and play my platform game if they shield.

 

[Miggz]

Or it could be he was playing on Dream Land 64 and the tree started blowing.

Nah, I was on FD. XD

I'll have to record it and show you guys. Its so weird. lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If you start noticing he is DI'ing your uair...bair. its ****.

and when that gets perfect DIed cause they were already DIing that way and they can grab the ledge with their jump, you'll be wishing you tried the uair.