Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[SpaceFalcon]

Thanks. :]

 

[halcyon.days]

If I'm getting CG'd by either Fox or Marth, and I neutral DI straight up:

After I DI straight up, should I even try to bother dding in midair to get out of tumbling motion or what?

Like against Marth you can shine @ around 20%, but if I try to wiggle out of tumbling motion will it help me get my shine off faster? Or, since I'm already DIing straight up, should I just mash B as fast as I can so I go into firefox?

 

[RaynEX]

Firefox will get you killed. Tip can still get you at that percent because you won't be high enough. Wiggling should work in theory, but I'm not sure how effective it is. I'm pretty sure if you wiggle out, you'd get out of stun at about the same time you'd be able to shine anyways. At 20%ish the hitstun from the throw ends when you reach Marth's head. The hitstun increases if you d.i.

 

[Lovage]

does the hitstun increase the MORE you di? or just if you DI at all? if i do "pc chris di" and di slightly behind the marth's back will i have the same hitstun as slamming all the way behind him?

also, does DIing up after marth's uthrow actually do anything? what does it do?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

im 99.9% sure that di doesnt affect hitstun at all

 

[Tomacawk]

im 99.9% sure that di doesnt affect hitstun at all

I agree. Think about falcon's dair. at high percents it has massive hitstun, but you fly too high to combo. if you di too hard left/right, you may be at a knee-able height, and the hitstun will seem longer because you get closer to the ground, but you stay in hitstun the same time as you would have if you didn't di.

and I have been told that up DI on uthrows does nothing by ripple, but a double check would be nice.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I had a few sets recorded with this Falco guy who doesn't really play Falco but did so because he felt like it and I got *****

Can anyone tell me the numerous things I am doing wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=238A7184BFADB4E5

 

[halcyon.days]

I had a few sets recorded with this Falco guy who doesn't really play Falco but did so because he felt like it and I got *****

Can anyone tell me the numerous things I am doing wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=238A7184BFADB4E5

You should grab more and use downair a bit less.

And you should go for the firefox sweetspot, as opposed to just illusion-ing onto the stage.

I only had time to watch like 2 matches so :S

 

[Doggalina]

I was watching Tang vs. Lunin (the comeback), and I noticed that when Tang dair to grabbed Lunin, he had to space it or else Lunin would shine him. Was Tang technically doing something wrong (not fastfalling or something) or is this always necessary? How reliable is dair to grab?

 

[Milos]

very reliable as long as they dont SDI the dair, in which case they can space themselves and you'll miss the tailend of the dair, they'll receive less hitstun, and they can shine you.

so either tang was missing an l cancel or part of the dair, or lunin was SDI'ing, but those are some of the best players in cali, so im assuming it was SDI

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

dair->grab is not garaunteed unless they get the flip-over stun animation (which happens at specific% with weird spacing)
ive tested this alot im sure

 

[Miggz]

I had a few sets recorded with this Falco guy who doesn't really play Falco but did so because he felt like it and I got *****

Can anyone tell me the numerous things I am doing wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=238A7184BFADB4E5

I'll first talk about your first match on Dreamland. In my opinion, you need to react a little quicker. A perfect example happens around 00:22. After your spot dodge you could have shined Falco and he would have been off the level, ready for edge guarding. So spot dodge to shine is a valuable tool in that kind of predicament. Trying to jump out of your shield while Falco is pillaring you isn't a good idea. I've seen players like PC actually time a up smash out of their shield after Falco had JC his shine, but I've never tried that yet. I just roll out of the way when I am getting pillared in my shield. Good job in DI-ing the shine though. ^^

Oh and watch those techs. Around 00:44-45 you tech backwards twice in a row and you got punished for it. So remember to switch up your techs. I'm sure you understand why you died at around 00:57, so I'll simply say be careful when using your second jump that close to the stage. I also notice that almost every time you come back to life you forward smash on the top platform. It doesn't look intentional but I just couldn't help but point that one out.

Nice shine spike for the first kill. Very nice prediction on your part on Falco's third stock. Regarding your up throw, to up smash attempt...watch your enemy's DI. Don't simply up throw and up smash when you see your enemy drifting away from yah. When edge guarding I wouldn't recommend wavedashing back when you clearly have the pressure on. When you wavedash back like that you give your enemy unnecessary breathing room.

From the looks of it, you are trying to run off the platforms into neutral airs. Just keep practicing those. You messed those up quite a bit. Finally was your habit of using your second jump above the edge, and it got you killed.


Ok now for your second match. I picked the Battlefield one. You have to be more careful when using your side B/phantasm. Not only did become predictable but you put yourself in bad places both times. You don't have to rush to recover when you get knocked off. Just take your time and plan it out. Don't forget you can shorten it as well by pressing "B" when Fox makes the "woosh" sound. Also when edge guarding Falco's side B, be very careful. I wouldn't event attempt to shine spike him out of it. A simply jab, or down smash would suffice.

You have very nice shield pressure yourself. Keep it up! Yeah your second last recovery attempt was kind of silly. lol But you made up for it with your next edge guard. lol

Ok so as a whole, its mainly your edge game that needs work. So that includes bettering your edge guarding and learning smarter ways out when you are the one being edge guarded. Don't forget the basics. Shine spiking isn't everything. You need more jabs/down smashes to intercept side Bs. Down smash also works well on Up Bs as well. Be careful when double jumping near the edge.

That's all I got to say. Good job, man. Keep it up.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah, I have no reaction time.

And I don't really have any idea with recovering or edgeguarding with Fox. It's too hard.

There's a window you can hit Falco out of his late pillar and middle pillar if you time U-smash out of shield on it right after he shines on your shield. That's usually what I'm trying to do, but I suck and can't do it so maybe I should just shine out of shield

I do agree though, I need to be more conservative under pressure

My tech skill fails me on platforms. Just something to work on I suppose

I'll practice Nairing and Bairing off platforms more. I can't seem to do it

I should try shine grabbing on shields I think. Might be more useful than landing a shine and then nothing happening 'cuz I'm too busy doing spinny kicks.

Miggz advice is 222 gud :D

 

[RaynEX]

im 99.9% sure that di doesnt affect hitstun at all

I thought about this for a really long time. I couldn't figure out why Foxes could shine out of Marth's CG ONLY if they didn't d.i.

What could the possible difference be? My conclusion was hitstun. I mean, doesn't it make sense? What are other possible explanations? Maybe it only applies to throws or something? Who knows

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth needs Fox to be a certain height to regrab him, I think.

If Fox dies behind or away, his send is lower out of the throw because it was diagonal, rather than straight up as if it was purely vertical. Thus, Marth has to wait a bit before he can regrab, whereas in the other two his wait time is shorter. This gives Fox time to recover out of hitstun and toss up a shine.

If Fox doesn't DI, it additionally makes the send on the U-throw closer to Marth's body, where the grab hitbox is smaller and shorter. So that would also increase the "wait time" on Marth's regrabbing, or warrant a pivot grab to make use of the higher hitbox, which is what people do iirc.

But this is all theory.

 

[RaynEX]

So it DOES affect hitstun, is what you're saying. Just not in the way I was thinking.

 

[EC_Joey]

I thought about this for a really long time. I couldn't figure out why Foxes could shine out of Marth's CG ONLY if they didn't d.i.

What could the possible difference be? My conclusion was hitstun. I mean, doesn't it make sense? What are other possible explanations? Maybe it only applies to throws or something? Who knows

I CALL UPON THE UNHOLY POWERS OF MAGUS!!!

Seriously, I'd love to know the reason behind this.

 

[KirbyKaze]

So it DOES affect hitstun, is what you're saying. Just not in the way I was thinking.

Well, sort of. I'm saying you "reduce" hitstun by doing that, not because you're actual reducing stun time, but because Marth has to wait longer to be able to hit you with stuff because his larger, higher grab hitbox is located inconviently far away from him, and Fox is very close.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I thought about this for a really long time. I couldn't figure out why Foxes could shine out of Marth's CG ONLY if they didn't d.i.

What could the possible difference be? My conclusion was hitstun. I mean, doesn't it make sense? What are other possible explanations? Maybe it only applies to throws or something? Who knows

if you di you will reach marths grab range faster so they can grab you before the hitstun ends

 

[Doggalina]

It's like you survival DI the throw. You don't go as high.

 

[Silent Wolf]

im 99.9% sure that di doesnt affect hitstun at all

How can you even think that lol.
Smash DI reduces the hitstun by quite a lot.
If you smash Di the dair in any of falcos combo in which he double jumps to combo you ie when youre marth, link etc you have so much less hit stun that you can fall and hit him with an attack before he can do anything thus ruining his combo which could have potentially made ruined that stock. smash Diing the diar every time is really easy if you dont suck at reading falco combos. Smash DI effects hitstun a lot. regular di does not unless you get hit while regularly DIing and edge cancel or hit the ground or something.

 

[halcyon.days]

My timing for SDI sucks ***, even though in other things I have really good timing.

I should just go to like a BtT mode that has burners and test that, right?

So I know that you can shine @ around 20% when you're being CG'd by Marth, but what about Fox? If you don't DI he gets a usmash, if you DI he gets another grab?

 

[Miggz]

Silent Wolf to the rescue. ^^

 

[Silent Wolf]

Being able to smash DI every hit is almost the same as being able to combo perfectly, the two go hand in hand. The concepts are ideally the same. Being able to prepare for what you see as the best options while at the same time being ready to react to all other options that would put you in a relatively bad position. Just play vs players that know what they're doing.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Also, it's obvious why Not DIing makes it more possible to shine out of Marth's grab.
You're at a high enough percent (which can tend to be quite low if the Marth doesn't have the right timing) going straight up puts you the furthest from marth's grasp leaving you the small amount of extra time needed to be able to shine before his grab gets you. If you DI to the side you aren't out of his grasp for a long enough time to get the shine out and he just re-grabs you. If you go up you're able to shine before his grab is sure. DIing up doesn't help at all either, it's the same as not DIing. Wiggling makes no different at these percents either, the Fox has to go through a certain animation before being able to tumble and brake free, and at this percent he gets grabbed before you can do anything, only shine will work, jumping gets you grab. If something else works the marth needs practice or to warm up or something. being in that sure thrown animation on allows certain DI, no smash Di to alter hit stun, no wiggling

 

[Milos]

come back silent wolf you're never here anymore

and your fox is tight

 

[Silent Wolf]

Yeah I'll start posting more, I still play. I have a bunch of things that aren't in videos and I don't think will be until I release them this summer so that should be tight. I want to make a video with platforms lol.

 

[Milos]

yea dude

can you still house me for genesis? pwetty pwease?

i asked you on facebook back in like december lolol

 

[Silent Wolf]

Isn't Genesis in California?

 

[Milos]

yea but it's nor nor norcal

near washington i believe

 

[Silent Wolf]

Would you be driving there from WA or something? if you flew to WA and stayed a few days then flew to Genesis thatd be fine :o

 

[Milos]

im down for it! we'll be in touch. go on aim sometime scrub

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

How can you even think that lol.
Smash DI reduces the hitstun by quite a lot.
If you smash Di the dair in any of falcos combo in which he double jumps to combo you ie when youre marth, link etc you have so much less hit stun that you can fall and hit him with an attack before he can do anything thus ruining his combo which could have potentially made ruined that stock. smash Diing the diar every time is really easy if you dont suck at reading falco combos. Smash DI effects hitstun a lot. regular di does not unless you get hit while regularly DIing and edge cancel or hit the ground or something.

if you mean sdi to somehow reach the ground faster to hitstun cancel faster then its true, but its still not the (smash) di in itself that affects it.

im still 99.9% sure on this. ask magus or m2k.

 

[ArcNatural]

if you mean sdi to somehow reach the ground faster to hitstun cancel faster then its true, but its still not the (smash) di in itself that affects it.

im still 99.9% sure on this. ask magus or m2k.

I'm pretty sure he is talking about the % in which Marth can recover but you can still hit them with uptilt or SH shine if they missed the DI (ie Marth is still in the air). While I'm not sure if this is because of hitstun or simply being further away allowing Marth's range to beat out Falco's options to catch you if you get the smash DI out. But I'm pretty sure this is what SW is talking about.

I think that Smash DI just gives the illusion of recovering faster because it decreases your travel time by a decent amount of frames while still keeping the same stun (IE you stay closer to the spot you were actually hit, rather than pushed further away). So if you Smash DI say Falco's dair up you will obviously be able to fair out of it higher than you would normally. And this gives the appearance of getting out of hitstun faster.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I'm pretty sure he is talking about the % in which Marth can recover but you can still hit them with uptilt or SH shine if they missed the DI (ie Marth is still in the air). While I'm not sure if this is because of hitstun or simply being further away allowing Marth's range to beat out Falco's options to catch you if you get the smash DI out. But I'm pretty sure this is what SW is talking about.

I think that Smash DI just gives the illusion of recovering faster because it decreases your travel time by a decent amount of frames while still keeping the same stun (IE you stay closer to the spot you were actually hit, rather than pushed further away). So if you Smash DI say Falco's dair up you will obviously be able to fair out of it higher than you would normally. And this gives the appearance of getting out of hitstun faster.

=O nice. thats prolly the case

 

[Silent Wolf]

if you mean sdi to somehow reach the ground faster to hitstun cancel faster then its true, but its still not the (smash) di in itself that affects it.

im still 99.9% sure on this. ask magus or m2k.

That's definitely not what I'm trying to say. Read my post again.

You could smash DI up and be able to pun ish Falco or other characters at low percents because it IS the smash DI in itself that determines the amount of hitstun..I'm not saying smash DI down to get to the ground first or anything.

 

[Lovage]

washington is pretty close to norcal, if only oregon would GTFO
otto did you try that platform-shine stuff shane was doing?

 

[SpaceFalcon]

WA is even closer to BC

get *****

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I'm not close to anyone

 

[Silent Wolf]

washington is pretty close to norcal, if only oregon would GTFO
otto did you try that platform-shine stuff shane was doing?

I invented it (Or was the first to be able to do it consistently, although I've known about it for a long time)and he told people he did as a joke, so yes. It's easiest with Falco on Battlefield, try it. You can either jump and instantly start multi-shining or shine grab. Convince whoever's housing you for Genesis to house me and Shane