Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[DtJ Jungle]

Ok Rayn (sup dude been a while)

at like mid percents...sh fair l cancel shine...does it work better (since nair starts to hit them too far away and drill is sometimes hard to l cancel) than a nair shine?

 

[Milos]

junglefever sup

umm i dunno, fair does less stun, to both character and shield, has way more lag so i don't think it's very useful. at mid percents just use depreciated nair, like throw it out a little earlier so the hitbox has weakened by the time it hits them, it's really useful.

on like marth at around 70 percent you can do a semi depreciated nair shine usmash it's funny as hell.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Yeah I don't know why I asked, I've never even considered that. Rayn just wanted a question so I gave him one.

 

[Milos]

i remember in some shield pressure topic like a year ago someone asked if fair is useful for shield pressure....

like shine fair shine fair HAHAHA
i mean it's a valid idea, but think of how ****ing funny fox would look shine fairing someone's shield

 

[EWC]

If you need a weaker hit than nair, use the inside of bair instead.

 

[Da Shuffla]

So, waveshine>Dtilt preps Shiek for an Uair?

 

[Miggz]

At the right percentages, yeah.

But I'd simply hit the Sheik with a full jump nair to hit her off the stage.

 

[Milos]

yea get shiek off the edge as early as possible

waveshine down smash is fun too

 

[cykofox]

so can you guys help me with my game a little?

cons

-obvious upsmashes
-not enough lasers
-going head to toe with high priority aerial characters
-edgeguarding sucks(bair misses often)(can't time to hit fox's or falco's foward b)
-gets gimped way to easily by the likes of shiek, marth, pikachu, fox,
-bad spacing(like i do shine after nair even if it won't hit them)
-gets shield grabbed to much
-tech chasing is horrible(tech roll towards me surprises me)
-more techskill
-absolutely no mindgames
-recovery is predictable
-can't survival di knees
-can't tech falcon's stomp(messes up timing)
-approaching with nair
-not enough stage control camping
-needs better reaction time
-trying to shine them off the ledge when they are ledge camping
-gets combo'ed easily

 

[soap]

wow ur pretty bad.

u seem to know what u need to work on, there is a pro to balance all those cons

 

[Meneks]

To cykofox

-obvious upsmashes

Don't do as many upsmashes as you probably do now mix it up be creative GRAB instead

-not enough lasers

I personally don't laser that much but i suggest you watch pro videos and try to mimic when and where they use theyre lasers

-going head to toe with high priority aerial characters

Jigglypuff? I was told that when you play puff you spam lasers ALOT since puff is so incredibly gay.

-edgeguarding sucks(bair misses often)(can't time to hit fox's or falco's foward b)

Practice makes perfect try sitting with someone and ask them to forward b recover so you could get the timing right...This helps

-gets gimped way to easily by the likes of shiek, marth, pikachu, fox,

Try to play less predictable this will really help you not to get gimped early in a match

-gets shield grabbed to much

When someone is shielding I like to grab them before they grab me. Either that or apply better shielf pressure shine + nair stuff like that

-tech chasing is horrible(tech roll towards me surprises me)

This is a result of slow reaction timing, what you can do is create a different mindset acknowledge the fact that your opponent can roll towards you or away from you or even stay in place, try to be ready for any scenario...
One more thing usually people who are new to the game competitively they tech/roll away from the ledge. Results may vary ofcourse

-more techskill

This really isn't a bad thing it would just be good to have smarts as well.

-absolutely no mindgames

The more you play people the smarter you will get eventually try watching other people play matches and try to find a pattern in they're play style after a while you will be able to do this at a much faster rate(i e In an actual game) and you will be able to lure the prey into a trap.. Having more mindgames will help your upsmash problem aswell.

-recovery is predictable

Try switching it up.

-can't tech falcon's stomp(messes up timing)

Learn the timing and become more efficient

-approaching with nair

I like to approach with nair but people will catch on to you..there are other aerials that can be used such as dair.

-needs better reaction time

lol I kinda figured playing people more will eventually make you a better player..

-gets combo'ed easily

Instead of di'ing into your opponent DI away even if you are near the edge di'ing away will make you harder to combo.

Your in chicago you can play me lmao.. I'd be able to help the timing stuff more in person cause its kinda hard to explain using text

 

[Miggz]

Very well said, Meneks.

Oh and CykoFox, are you also able to record your matches?

 

[Ripple]

*cough cykoowesme$10still cough*

practice makes pefect

 

[cykofox]

lol yeah ripple next time i see you. i thought it was 5 bucks though cuz i gave you 10.

soap lol i beat you in a friendly 2 stocks at poe.

miggz - nah ill get somethings up next time i play kels.

meneks- i love you.

i made this list after yesterday's smashfest.

 

[Meneks]

lol.. I left alot of stuff out because i didnt think I could give credible advise on it in case you didnt notice...

 

[hubble]

I need to grab more, someone yell at me for not grabbing enough.

Plus I need general tech chasing tips, I feel like its limiting me way too much.
As of right now, I run up to them (when theyre on the ground) and light shield, then i react to what they do.

If they get up attack its super easy to punish it, but if they roll it feels like Im not at on advantage.

So yeah, some tech chasing tips please.

@Raynex: Sup man, I want to play you guys again. It feels like I get 10x better every time I play you

 

[Meneks]

I need to grab more, someone yell at me for not grabbing enough.

Plus I need general tech chasing tips, I feel like its limiting me way too much.
As of right now, I run up to them (when theyre on the ground) and light shield, then i react to what they do.

If they get up attack its super easy to punish it, but if they roll it feels like Im not at on advantage.

So yeah, some tech chasing tips please.

@Raynex: Sup man, I want to play you guys again. It feels like I get 10x better every time I play you

When theyre on the ground try to stay close but not close enough so that they can hit you if they dont roll.

if you keep a close distance youll be able to react and punish them no matter what they do

 

[Grmo]

I never laser unless they're ledgestalling me. I find it's best just to focus on getting more valuable hits. Running away and lasering is used for getting yourself out of tough situations, but I prefer to take a hint from Falcon players and just make people chase me without lasering (since, by shooting the laser, you're committing yourself to going through the jump).

The other problem with lasers is that you need distance, often meaning that you're setting both you and your opponent back to a neutral position where you're just playing defensively, which is a terrible thing to do if you've got some aggressive pressure on them (which is a lot if you're using Fox). I dunno, be smart with it.


On tech chasing: if they tech in place, regrab or something. If they don't tech, usmash. If they DI the throw, wavedash in the direction of their DI then chase with whatever. Some characters (Sheik comes to mind) have a bigger tech roll, so you just have to think about how you can land the next hit. If I feel like I'm not close enough, I'll use dtilt since it has some reach and lets me keep in control. Usmash at lower percents is amazing, but don't shoot them up mindlessly. You're gonna want to look for every opportunity to get them off the edge, which is why I sometimes like dsmash or fsmash if I think it'll get them off. Shining never fails either.

EDIT: don't lightsheild, since you'll get pushed away. The sheild is basically forcing them to roll unless they're stupid. Chances are they'll roll away. so just wavedash out of your sheild and go after them. Keep in mind smart players will mix stuff up, so it's (as usual) all about reacting. Of course, if they're not a smart player, you've got nothing to worry about.

comments are in orange

so can you guys help me with my game a little?

cons

-obvious upsmashes
-not enough lasers see my first paragraph.
-going head to toe with high priority aerial characters
-edgeguarding sucks(bair misses often)(can't time to hit fox's or falco's foward b)
-gets gimped way to easily by the likes of shiek, marth, pikachu, fox,
-bad spacing(like i do shine after nair even if it won't hit them)
-gets shield grabbed to much predictable approach. you're probably running at them and nairing constantly, and it's not hard to punish that.
-tech chasing is horrible(tech roll towards me surprises me) then be prepared for it. it's not as hard as it sounds; you've just gotta wrap your mind around the fact that you can do it easily.
-more techskill
-absolutely no mindgames see what i wrote after this
-recovery is predictable
-can't survival di knees
-can't tech falcon's stomp(messes up timing)
-approaching with nair
-not enough stage control camping unnecessary. don't limit yourself by thinking "i'm not doing enough of this". there are so many ways to control the stage, and Fox is at his best when he's not camping. besides, camping is boring as hell and not fun to fight against."
-needs better reaction time
-trying to shine them off the ledge when they are ledge camping
-gets combo'ed easily when being comboed, hold away

This whole list tells me that you're not conscious enough of what you're doing. Think really carefully about what moves you do. It's good that you see what you're getting punished for. "predictable recovery" and "approaching with nair" can be fixed by trying things out that your opponents won't expect. For example, if you always aim your firefox for the ledge in an attempt to tech it, or if you aim your stuff for your opponents (who are perfectly capable of hitting you out of them; it's really easy, actually), then they'll know that they can hit you out of it. However, if you try to go past them completely and aim above them, they'll often miss. Think about what's the best option for you at any given time. As Raynex said, think and react.

As for the rest, it's just practice. You gain tech skill with playing time, and you gain reaction time over time as well. Remember to keep in the right mindset and stay conscious of what you're doing. The biggest difference between a good and a bad Fox player is their ability to think during matches. it'll take some time, so don't put too much pressure on yourself, but it's not too hard overall. just takes time. slow down at first to get a hold of it, then speed up gradually.

 

[Da Shuffla]

Stage ban advice? Which character/stage combinations should I avoid?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Peach and Mute City is AWFUL because there are no edges. Really though thats the only one that's bad for Fox. Ban what ever stage you aren't comfortable with.

 

[EC_Joey]

so can you guys help me with my game a little?

-edgeguarding sucks(bair misses often)(can't time to hit fox's or falco's foward b)

Regarding this specific area, when I play Fox vs. Falco/Fox, I mostly stay on the stage when edgeguarding. In some situations it's much better to grab the ledge when you're going for a shinespike or a bair, but I find that I can edgeguard just as well on the stage.

When you're trying to edgeguard against an illusion to the ledge, you can do a couple things if they don't sweetspot it exactly (meaning they illusion a little higher than a real sweetspot, and drop down a tiny bit to grab the ledge). I prefer to use a forward tilt that's tilted downwards. It sends them away and up a little. You can also use a downsmash, but there's more lag afterwards. If you're confident, you can even stand right on the edge and shine when they illusion into you, but the timing's tricky.

If you're determined to use a bair to edgeguard against an illusion, the main problem for most people is being able to drop down soon enough to come back up with the bair before they finish the illusion. A possible solution for getting the timing on this better is to drop down, shine, and then use the control stick to jump and the c-stick to bair. You have a bit of leeway when you shine because you stall there for a moment, letting you time the double jump to bair a bit better.

 

[Miggz]

A long time ago...I use to hate playing Peaches as Fox. Not anymore though. XD

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Playing Peach just sucks. I've never liked it. It's not that I can't hit her, it's that I cant kill her. I guess in general though my weakness is killing my opponent.

 

[EC_Joey]

Puff and Brinstar are another notorious character & counterpick that are bad for Fox and other fastfallers. Puff can rest so easily, she either pulls it off and gets the kill, or misses and gets 15%.

 

[soap]

soap lol i beat you in a friendly 2 stocks at poe.

.

when did we play?

do u have darker skin tone?

 

[cykofox]

when did we play?

do u have darker skin tone?

lol no. i have lighter skin and played you right after ihsb.

 

[RaynEX]

I have a question: Could you tell me about the Shiek matchup? It's the only matchup I am not entirely sure of. All I know is that I can drill shine combo pretty well. That's about it.

Sheik match-up? When I play KirbyKaze there are a bunch of key things I'm thinking about.

-Sheik MIGHT win if she gets 1 gimp on you. The win is in the bag if she gets 2. Bottom line, stay away from the edge and don't get gimped.

-Don't run into the edge-camp. Laser or pressure with bairs and cover with shines.

-Mix-up your d.i./techs out of dthrow on-stage so you don't feel helpless.

-Don't run into tilts. If you plan on attacking head on, shield. Run->shield->grab the tilt is sex.

-You have to do GOOD GOOD GOOD damage out of a grab. Go for uair. Mix it up and go for nair or do something silly that you think might work. At 0 try usmash, or nair (wait) then grab. If you mix it up you might get more damage off sometimes.

-When you knock Sheik off the stage either kill her or drillshine to a huge gay combo.

-If Sheik fair/bair/nairs your shield don't grab because jab, dsmash and all her tilts will come out first. Treat it like the ditto, and wait it out THEN counterattack. You can actually WD out of shield and grab spaced ftilts.

-CC tilts to shine/usmash

I HAVE A QUESTION

how are you getting to smashpocalypse (no johns) and how long do you want to stay at my house you bum

<3

I can't come. Money fail and school johns. : (

Ok Rayn (sup dude been a while)

at like mid percents...sh fair l cancel shine...does it work better (since nair starts to hit them too far away and drill is sometimes hard to l cancel) than a nair shine?

Yep, fair has less stun and nair is generally better anyways. Avoid the fair imo.

so can you guys help me with my game a little?

cons

-obvious upsmashes
-not enough lasers
-going head to toe with high priority aerial characters
-edgeguarding sucks(bair misses often)(can't time to hit fox's or falco's foward b)
-gets gimped way to easily by the likes of shiek, marth, pikachu, fox,
-bad spacing(like i do shine after nair even if it won't hit them)
-gets shield grabbed to much
-tech chasing is horrible(tech roll towards me surprises me)
-more techskill
-absolutely no mindgames
-recovery is predictable
-can't survival di knees
-can't tech falcon's stomp(messes up timing)
-approaching with nair
-not enough stage control camping
-needs better reaction time
-trying to shine them off the ledge when they are ledge camping
-gets combo'ed easily

Alot of the things you listed are things you'll improve on naturally. You just to acquire more experience.

-usmashing randomly? When you are at that point where you'd normally do it, wait. Then after a few seconds, when you think its the right time to usmash, wait some more. If you keep waiting like that you'll mindgame yourself and throw it out randomly. lol it works for me

-Laser more and DON'T laser in close proximity to your opponent. Camping is gay but is by no means easy. You have to know when and when not to do it. (and against what characters and how on different stages)

-Marth has a disjointed hitbox, Sheik's aerials are disjointed for the most part too. What I'd suggest is to just block them and use their cooldown time to your advantage. Don't challenge them in the air. If they are coming at you, weave around their aerial or just go underneath and hit them. Running into Marth's aerials for example will get you super combo-ed or grabbed.

-What I started doing to improve my edge-guarding was: watching my opponent. When you knock them off position yourself, and make sure you know where your character is. Then focus on your opponent. Its easy for you to call what they are going to do like this. Time the bair and intercept. Be patient, and react. Don't throw out bairs randomly assuming ****.

-If you're getting gimped it means you're approaching the ledge too much, and that your d.i. on their throws is bad. Don't d.i. Sheik's bthrow/Pika's fthrow away. You'll be so low, and its really easy to die that way. Only d.i. Marth's fthrow away (because he'll dtilt you if you don't). Try hugging the stage and double jump sweetspotting the edge to avoid gimps. Maybe airdodging up?

-Don't throw out nairs. Watch their movement and place them accordingly. If you miss, look at what THEY are doing and move in accordance. Don't shine if it isn't necessary. If you miss a nair, try buffer rolling away and reseting your position.

-L-cancel and shine to beat shieldgrabs. You know this.

-Reading d.i. helps alot when tech-chasing. Also pay attention to where your opponent is on the stage. If you are near an edge they might roll towards you to escape being near it, etc etc.

-Techskill is all about practice.

-Mindgames is all about PVP experience. It can't be taught.

-There are a ****load of things you can do to survive with Fox. Sweetspot illusion/firefox, double jump airdodge, double jump walljump airdodge/illusion/firefox, shortened illusion, squeezed sweetspot firefoxes, edge-cancelled illusions, wavelands etc.

-D.i. perpendicular to your trajectory on the knee. If you get kneed to the right hold Up and left (smash d.i preferably).

-Don't try to tech when the dair hits. You need to hit L or R BEFORE it hits. Thats the timing.

-Don't approach? : p

-Camping is all about being evasive. Its all about watching your opponent, again. Watch how they are coming at you and determine the best route of escape, then spam laser.

-Reaction time is improved through experience. You need to be in tight situations more (where your reaction speed will come into play), for you to be able to use and improve it more.

-Never, ever approach someone who is ledge-camping.

-Hold away or down/away while being comboed. Don't survival d.i. into them.

 

[Meneks]

In more in depth tips with Grmo and RaynEX...good job

 

[Lovage]

i wish i had raynex's hair

 

[RaynEX]

Everyone does.

 

[PCHU]

Everyone does.

I actually have an afro.
But I hate it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5JeKORupto&feature=channel_page

I finally got a chance to fight someone.
It's my cousin, and he plays a rather campy Marth.
And sadly enough, his tv's colors are distorted, so the video quality is horrid.
BUT!
I hope you find the actual fight.....entertaining?
It was the best one I could find out of many.

So, that's what you guys asked for.
An actual person to fight, and I got it.

 

[Miggz]

Well both you and your cousin play very campy. I guess you two kind of rubbed off each other. lol I know it isn't the case but the match look rehearsed. Only cause of the odd movement. lol

Nice aerial to waveshines/waveshines though. Although both of you guys were campy, there were a few times where you rushed in and you paid for it, i.e. short hop dair into Marth's up tilt. Now lucky for you, your cousin isn't the greatest edge guarder, cause you were hanging onto the ledge a little too long. Don't get into that habit. When you plan to hang on the ledge for a while let go of it, and re-grab it over and over to restock your invulnerable frames.

Another thing is recovery. You used your Up B in a very unsafe spot. A better Marth would have swatted you out of the air. When using your Fire Fox, you don't want to use it too close to the stage (unless you are doing an edge Fire Fox stall) because the charge up time is too long. So just use better judgment with recovery.

Its just little things, really. I will say that you have some nice tech skill going and you are patient, although I'm not sure how you have played if you had a better Marth applying pressure to you. =P


Oh and you're only 15? Yeah I think of you keep this up you'll be just fine. XD

 

[RaynEX]

Campy? The Marth looked like he had never played before; he just stood there the whole time. lol

not moving does not = campy

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Edit:

WOW thought it was someone else.


It looks like you are trying way too hard to be flashy. Work on those Dair L cancels.

You look like you are well on your way though. Just don't try so hard to be flashy and such.

 

[Miggz]

Campy? The Marth looked like he had never played before; he just stood there the whole time. lol

not moving does not = campy

LOL!

True that, bro. Yeah perhaps I should have been a bit more honest about the Marth.

PCHU, if your cousin wants to better his Marth (not sure if he wants to take the game serious) you can post some of those matches in the Marth forums for help. If you wish.

 

[EC_Joey]

PCHU if you don't go to tournaments and play as many people as you can all the tech skill in the world won't make up for real match experience.

 

[Miggz]

PCHU if you don't go to tournaments and play as many people as you can all the tech skill in the world won't make up for real match experience.

This is indeed true. Tournaments do give you much more experiences then friendlies every will.

However, that doesn't mean he should stop playing/training. ^^;

 

[EC_Joey]

This is indeed true. Tournaments do give you much more experiences then friendlies every will.

However, that doesn't mean he should stop playing/training. ^^;

I wasn't saying that he should stop playing/training. It's just that I feel he's going about it all wrong. He said it himself that "I finally got a chance to fight someone."

Practicing tech skill is important, but not being able to properly implement what you can do, recognize when you should do something (or not do something, which is just as important), is a severe problem.

You can't teach someone how to watch your opponent and predict his next move or reaction by reading a guide in a thread. Some people say tech skill is the foundation for competitive play, but I disagree with this. I feel that tech skill augments competitive play. It is knowledge of the game and capabilities of the characters, their movesets, and how characters interact that is the real foundation.

 

[Meneks]

I wasn't saying that he should stop playing/training. It's just that I feel he's going about it all wrong. He said it himself that "I finally got a chance to fight someone."

Practicing tech skill is important, but not being able to properly implement what you can do, recognize when you should do something (or not do something, which is just as important), is a severe problem.

You can't teach someone how to watch your opponent and predict his next move or reaction by reading a guide in a thread. Some people say tech skill is the foundation for competitive play, but I disagree with this. I feel that tech skill augments competitive play. It is knowledge of the game and capabilities of the characters, their movesets, and how characters interact that is the real foundation.

Smarts>Techskill I totally agree, smarts is your base. Techskill just allows you to reach on and have more variety. Techskill alone isn't going to get you very far.

 

[thumbswayup]

I wasn't saying that he should stop playing/training. It's just that I feel he's going about it all wrong. He said it himself that "I finally got a chance to fight someone."

Practicing tech skill is important, but not being able to properly implement what you can do, recognize when you should do something (or not do something, which is just as important), is a severe problem.

You can't teach someone how to watch your opponent and predict his next move or reaction by reading a guide in a thread. Some people say tech skill is the foundation for competitive play, but I disagree with this. I feel that tech skill augments competitive play. It is knowledge of the game and capabilities of the characters, their movesets, and how characters interact that is the real foundation.

I agree with this. If tech skill were the foundation for competitive play, Silent Wolf would win every tournament.