Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Tomacawk]

Ok so here is the Fox critique I promised. I basically watched all of your fights with Captain Falcon. Game 4, on DL...you have excellent pressuring skills. I was very impressed with that. Nice SHFFL nair pressure. But in my opinion, you don't kill quick enough. This is due to a few reasons. One, you weren't very aggressive in your edge guarding in that particular match up. Try to get get some shine spike kills, especially against Falcon. Believe it or not, using ledge hop dairs when your foe is recovering below you is actually pretty useful with Fox. It may not spike but it does push your foe low enough for you to get a shine spike kill, especially when done on another Fox, or a Falco. Forward tilts, down smash and bair also ****. So definitely work on your edge guarding for quick kills/gimps.

The second reason I think you don't kill quick enough is because when you knock your foe high into the air, it seems you get restless and start doing random tech skill until they are close enough for you to land. I'm referring to Falcon's third stock. You up smashed him and instead of jumping up on the platforms to apply pressure you start doing randomness. You should always be applying pressure, and not doing so actually cost you that stock. There is plenty of time to show off when you actually make the kill. lol

Other then that, good job in that match.

Your match with cf on FD: You have this habit that I'm sure all Fox players had at one point, and that's the full jump, to double jump, to bair. This really isn't all that effective, at least when its done multiple times. Instead of doing this just simply run away/or towards your opponent. A few times your reaction speed wasn't too sharp. Like when you did an up throw on Falcon it looked like you hesitated. There is no need to hesitate after you up throw someone with Fox. Fox has more then enough speed to follow up. A full jump nair would have been ideal after that up throw since cf DI-ed a bit.

Also, try and make your wave dashes a tad bit longer. When wave dashing try and angle your analog stick as forward as possible. This will also help when waveshining Marth's as well, and others. Nice combo on Falcon's second. You followed up perfectly. :-)

Also, learn your percents for combos. You attempted a up throw to upsmash on Falcon at 0 percent. In stead of up smash after a up throw at 0%, use up tilts to grab or waveshine. This ***** Falcon's at low percents. Again, try and work on your edge guarding, although the double shine spike at the end was nice. =P


Overall, you have a pretty cool Fox. Just tidy up on the things I and others have suggested and you'll be fine. I think you should contribute to the Fox Forum combo vid, by the way.

thanks, i'd love to contribute to the fox boards combo vid, but idk if I'm good enough (yet)
you should check game 11, my tourny winning combo was pretty sick, maybe good enough for the combo vid?
i actually do ledge hop dair against other foxes. i didn't think about it for falcon. and admittedly, I do like to show off in the middle of games, I think it really helps intimidate people but obv. it'd be better to folow up so i guess i just need to quit being an arrogant douche lol
thanks for all the critiques, everyone
I assume they're done (unless raynex does one)

 

[FastFox]

On the topic of frame perfection;

If two players could play Marth and Fox both frame perfect, the prime deciding factor in the match would be who most effectively counters who circumstantially. There's a complete difference between being able to predict everything and playing a frame perfect character, meaning if Player A (Fox) is standing on a platform on Yoshi's Story and Player B (Marth) is underneath and going to f-smash (which will obviously be a tipper because they play frame perfect), there's only a chance that Player A will be able to see this f-smash coming, and jump at the exact moment (due to frame perfect playing) that it would have hit.

Therefore, Player A is hit with a Marth f-smash, then faces Marth's frame perfect edge-gaurding, in which Marth clearly has the upper-hand situationally.

See what I'm getting at?

 

[Miggz]

thanks, i'd love to contribute to the fox boards combo vid, but idk if I'm good enough (yet)
you should check game 11, my tourny winning combo was pretty sick, maybe good enough for the combo vid?
i actually do ledge hop dair against other foxes. i didn't think about it for falcon. and admittedly, I do like to show off in the middle of games, I think it really helps intimidate people but obv. it'd be better to folow up so i guess i just need to quit being an arrogant douche lol
thanks for all the critiques, everyone
I assume they're done (unless raynex does one)

Lol.

That was a cool combo. Did you even mean to do that fair? =P

Regardless, you finished it nicely.

 

[Tomacawk]

Lol.

That was a cool combo. Did you even mean to do that fair? =P

Regardless, you finished it nicely.

whether or not it was supposed to be a nair is not important
=]

 

[PCHU]

Sorry, I've said some stupid things that I should've held back.
My apologies.
Especially to Silent Wolf, my main inspiration.

Lv. 1 CPU's?
I've tried it.
If they hardly do anything, how is that helping me out?

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

That's the point. They don't do stupid survival DI during combos, they don't interfere while you practice the basic routines, stuff like that. You can't learn to play the game against CPUs. No way. So the best you can do is train basic routines, movement, and reflexes. Lvl 1's are good for that.

 

[Grmo]

On the topic of frame perfection;

If two players could play Marth and Fox both frame perfect, the prime deciding factor in the match would be who most effectively counters who circumstantially. There's a complete difference between being able to predict everything and playing a frame perfect character, meaning if Player A (Fox) is standing on a platform on Yoshi's Story and Player B (Marth) is underneath and going to f-smash (which will obviously be a tipper because they play frame perfect), there's only a chance that Player A will be able to see this f-smash coming, and jump at the exact moment (due to frame perfect playing) that it would have hit.

Therefore, Player A is hit with a Marth f-smash, then faces Marth's frame perfect edge-gaurding, in which Marth clearly has the upper-hand situationally.

See what I'm getting at?

Yeah, but a frame perfect Fox would see every move that he can cancel with shine (which, upon being hit, only has 19 frames of lag) coming, and would use it against all of marths moves except like, jab and dtilt, so he could pretty much punish anything else. The Marth would powersheild all of Fox's lasers and aerials into grabs, but if the Fox got a shine, he would be able to use his frameperfect shining to chase after Marth and hit him. Basically, the Fox can counter just about everything the Marth uses simply by pressing down B. It would probably be the stupidest match ever.

Also, that point of Marth's f smash (right above) hits (I think) below frame 10 (10 is the end of the smash), which would still be enough time for fox to shine, if they're playing frameperfectly.

Actually, do you know the frame times for sheilding? Like, how quickly powersheild comes out or how fast it goes away?

That's the point. They don't do stupid survival DI during combos, they don't interfere while you practice the basic routines, stuff like that. You can't learn to play the game against CPUs. No way. So the best you can do is train basic routines, movement, and reflexes. Lvl 1's are good for that.

They're also good because moves have different levels of lag when you're hitting things so you can get used to the timing and such.

On that note: to all Fox players who are having trouble L cancelling all the time, try putting a human player on and a lot of invincibility stars, then just practice sheild pressuring stuff until you get it perfectly. After that you can like, randomly not shine after a nair and run behind their sheild with a bair, then shine bair, or you can be a jerk and grab them, or some random crap like that i dunno lolz

 

[FastFox]

What I'm basically saying is that frame perfect play does not determine how well a player will predict/react to his opponents movements, but how well a player can execute moves/apply technical strategies in game.

Notice I used the word technical. Mental strategies (ie; mindgames) don't come from playing a character frame perfect, they come from the player being human, therefore being vulnerable to human error.

My argument becomes completely invalid, however, if we're talking about machine vs. machine or something like that. I'm just assuming that both players are actual people who just have the weird ability to be able to do everything frame perfectly.

 

[Miggz]

Grmo!

You have the best signature ever. Haha.

Poor Terra. =P

 

[Meneks]

Sorry, I've said some stupid things that I should've held back.
My apologies.
Especially to Silent Wolf, my main inspiration.

Lv. 1 CPU's?
I've tried it.
If they hardly do anything, how is that helping me out?

Thats kinda the point i mean the purpose of playing lvl 1 cpus is so that your playstyle against humans doesnt get bad...

lvl 9
cpus D.I in the weirdest directions....
And for those who dont know lvl 9 cpus are INCREDIBLY easy to shine bair.

Since lvl 1's dont do anything you can practive fluidity and better movement which is a big deal if you main fox...
also...

lvl 1s dont di much...so it wont drastically effect your ability to predict di on a human...trrust me practicing with lvl1 cpus is effective...

If you play lvl 9 cpus for about an hour then play a human...your skill level will go down.

 

[Grmo]

What I'm basically saying is that frame perfect play does not determine how well a player will predict/react to his opponents movements, but how well a player can execute moves/apply technical strategies in game.

Notice I used the word technical. Mental strategies (ie; mindgames) don't come from playing a character frame perfect, they come from the player being human, therefore being vulnerable to human error.

My argument becomes completely invalid, however, if we're talking about machine vs. machine or something like that. I'm just assuming that both players are actual people who just have the weird ability to be able to do everything frame perfectly.

lol I wasn't arguing with you really, just going sidetracking and talking about random crap. on that note, someone should make a choreographed match with frameperfect stuff and AR. that might be interesting.

Grmo!

You have the best signature ever. Haha.

Poor Terra. =P

lol thanks

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

No. It would be 8 minutes of no one doing anything and/or ledgestalling. Anything you do will be powershielded, so why do it? Magus wrote about it somewhere (think it was the tier list thread), pretty interesting stuff if you can find it.

 

[Grmo]

Dude, think about it. If we choreograph it, we can do whatever we want, meaning it would be amazing. Why did you think it would be ledgestalling? Like, it would basically be two people with perfect tech skill and reaction time going at it.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Well, of course that works. I'm just saying a competitive frame perfect match would be extremely boring.

 

[Grmo]

^ lmfao yeah. I don't even wanna think about it

Anyway Tomacawk:

before you start reading this, realize that anything i say here is based on what i saw you do this match. even if you're better than this and you know stuff already, blah blah etc you know what i'm getting at lol. anyway:

Match 1:
- when you're sheild pressuring that fast, I noticed you were able to get behind ripple and turning around, so if you can do that, try to get a grab.
- 1:00 around there you tried running into an up smash, but you aimed it for where he was when you started it. That will only work if he doesn't move and doesn't sheild or anything...you see what I'm getting at?
- if you're behind them, you're at a HUGE strategic advantage, because he can't grab you. try to pay attention to when you're in this situation and make the best of it.
- vary your approach some more. you're sort of SH nairing over and over again, and if you show someone the same trick several times, they're gonna figure out a way around it. vary it with different moves/approaches so that he can't grab you so easily, because you're getting punished for it.
- something a lot of people don't realize: rolling up onto the stage is no good if they're already on the ground. just hit forward and get up quickly, or press a to hit them, depending on what you want to do. ie. low percent = try to grab because they'll CC the hit. rolling is slow and they'll almost always punish you for it, so only do it if they're still off the stage and you need the extra edgehog time.
- I think, overall, you just need to pay close attention to where you are and how to make the best of your situation. you've got really good technical abilities btw.
- ok yeah, stop running into usmash so randomly. it's so easy to see coming, even though you might not realize it, and i don't think i've seen you hit with it when you approach like that lol

aaaaaaaaa hags the rest are gone lol

Match 5 (fox falco green greens):
- this is a dumb stage lol
- nice sheild pressure
- when you grab the ledge, you can make use of the invincibility and shinespike them without worry.
- a lot of the time, so far at least, you go through with your combo even if the first move doesn't hit, and you either don't realize it at first or you're weird. this is just more paying attention, and you'll get better at it with practice/time.
- 2:03 was rofl. no need to say anything about that.
- think about how you're recovering. vs falco, for instance, you want to start your firefox under falco's laser area, then angle up and try not to get spiked.
- LOL what happened at the end?

Match 5 (fox falco FD):
- lasering at close range with fox = death. don't do it.
- don't tech into people unless you think you need to. that's something that you should just whack yourself on the head until it drills in.
- you need to move a lot more. i mean, mostly it's fine, but there were a few times where you just sat still and tried to attack him. like "k maybe this next utilt will hit". it's generally a very bad idea because people can come and cockslap you and you're like "OMFG WHERE DID THAT COME FROM"
- tell ripple to hold up when he gets hit by things like, above 100% lol. he'll live for longer.

Match 6 (fox falcon FD):
- be wary of Falcon's knee. he's trying to get you into the air so he can knee you, so if you jump, you're just doing his work for him.
- uthrow usmash doens't work at 0%. utilt ftw, then like...shine usmash.
- there's another case of you teching towards him. just watch what your opponent is doing REALLY CAREFULLY so you don't get hit by silly stuff.

the rest of the matches:
- alright, you're getting ***** here. TBH I could tell you how to **** Roy, but it wouldn't be the same. You just need to practice and think about it, play against Roy more, and you'll figure stuff out. The difference between that and me telling you is the difference between merely a textbook understanding of the strategy/matchup, and an intimate and personalized understanding, or what I like to call a TRUE understanding. With that, I'm sure you'll learn to fight Roy. So, just work at it. I could help you here, but on principle, I'm not going to.
- RIP = Roy is Pimp
- Alright, you're not getting that ***** really. Keep what I said before in mind anyway, because it's useful advice regardless of situation.

Hope this helps.

 

[Tomacawk]

^ lmfao yeah. I don't even wanna think about it

Anyway Tomacawk:

before you start reading this, realize that anything i say here is based on what i saw you do this match. even if you're better than this and you know stuff already, blah blah etc you know what i'm getting at lol. anyway:

Match 1:
- when you're sheild pressuring that fast, I noticed you were able to get behind ripple and turning around, so if you can do that, try to get a grab.
- 1:00 around there you tried running into an up smash, but you aimed it for where he was when you started it. That will only work if he doesn't move and doesn't sheild or anything...you see what I'm getting at?
- if you're behind them, you're at a HUGE strategic advantage, because he can't grab you. try to pay attention to when you're in this situation and make the best of it.
- vary your approach some more. you're sort of SH nairing over and over again, and if you show someone the same trick several times, they're gonna figure out a way around it. vary it with different moves/approaches so that he can't grab you so easily, because you're getting punished for it.
- something a lot of people don't realize: rolling up onto the stage is no good if they're already on the ground. just hit forward and get up quickly, or press a to hit them, depending on what you want to do. ie. low percent = try to grab because they'll CC the hit. rolling is slow and they'll almost always punish you for it, so only do it if they're still off the stage and you need the extra edgehog time.
- I think, overall, you just need to pay close attention to where you are and how to make the best of your situation. you've got really good technical abilities btw.
- ok yeah, stop running into usmash so randomly. it's so easy to see coming, even though you might not realize it, and i don't think i've seen you hit with it when you approach like that lol

aaaaaaaaa hags the rest are gone lol

Match 5 (fox falco green greens):
- this is a dumb stage lol
- nice sheild pressure
- when you grab the ledge, you can make use of the invincibility and shinespike them without worry.
- a lot of the time, so far at least, you go through with your combo even if the first move doesn't hit, and you either don't realize it at first or you're weird. this is just more paying attention, and you'll get better at it with practice/time.
- 2:03 was rofl. no need to say anything about that.
- think about how you're recovering. vs falco, for instance, you want to start your firefox under falco's laser area, then angle up and try not to get spiked.
- LOL what happened at the end?

Match 5 (fox falco FD):
- lasering at close range with fox = death. don't do it.
- don't tech into people unless you think you need to. that's something that you should just whack yourself on the head until it drills in.
- you need to move a lot more. i mean, mostly it's fine, but there were a few times where you just sat still and tried to attack him. like "k maybe this next utilt will hit". it's generally a very bad idea because people can come and cockslap you and you're like "OMFG WHERE DID THAT COME FROM"
- tell ripple to hold up when he gets hit by things like, above 100% lol. he'll live for longer.

Match 6 (fox falcon FD):
- be wary of Falcon's knee. he's trying to get you into the air so he can knee you, so if you jump, you're just doing his work for him.
- uthrow usmash doens't work at 0%. utilt ftw, then like...shine usmash.
- there's another case of you teching towards him. just watch what your opponent is doing REALLY CAREFULLY so you don't get hit by silly stuff.

the rest of the matches:
- alright, you're getting ***** here. TBH I could tell you how to **** Roy, but it wouldn't be the same. You just need to practice and think about it, play against Roy more, and you'll figure stuff out. The difference between that and me telling you is the difference between merely a textbook understanding of the strategy/matchup, and an intimate and personalized understanding, or what I like to call a TRUE understanding. With that, I'm sure you'll learn to fight Roy. So, just work at it. I could help you here, but on principle, I'm not going to.
- RIP = Roy is Pimp
- Alright, you're not getting that ***** really. Keep what I said before in mind anyway, because it's useful advice regardless of situation.

Hope this helps.

I got ***** that match because I hadn't played his roy for at least 1.5 months, and I forgot how unforgiving it is
I was used to the do whatever I want approach, but I needed the "be careful as **** approach"

 

[Grmo]

No johns.

His roy is sexy though

no homo

 

[FastFox]

Roy and no homo together in one post?

Look man, I don't know what you're trying to do here but WHOA.

 

[Brookman]

I got ***** that match because I hadn't played his roy for at least 1.5 months, and I forgot how unforgiving it is
I was used to the do whatever I want approach, but I needed the "be careful as **** approach"

That's pretty far into the set as well, no? Perhaps he was just playing YOU perfectly.

 

[Tomacawk]

haha ok no johns i got ***** =X

 

[BEHR]

Any More advice on the matches I did?

I posted my matches a couple pages ago. :3


I would love some more advice.

 

[Ripple]

No johns.

His roy is sexy though

no homo

I've been told that before since I took a stock off M2k before he took 1 off of me

Roy and no homo together in one post?

Look man, I don't know what you're trying to do here but WHOA.

this is my new sig, thank you.


broken/not my controller johns on my part, since someone took my own.

 

[FastFox]

I'm a big fan of tournament psychology.

Sometimes the better players will completely sandbag for the first round of a match. I sometimes do it to scout playstyle. However, some people just keep sandbagging because they think, "I don't even need to try to beat this guy", then the match ends up being tied with 1 stock each at the end and the guy freaking out to catch up.

I like to meet everybody personally before the tournament begins, just so that there's no hard feelings with the results of the matches.

 

[Grmo]

I like that sentiment, actually. I'll have to start doing it more. I hate playing people when it's awkward and I haven't talked to them. For some reason I find it hard not to sandbag in that case.

 

[FastFox]

It makes the tournament scene so much more friendly, too. If you make the innitiative to go up to someone and exchange advice/talk, they've got further incentive to approach others as well.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Talking to people is the only reason I even go to tournies lol. I love teaching people stuff about smash and watching them go like "ohhhhh, that helps so much." ^_^

 

[Tero.]

Talking to people is the only reason I even go to tournies lol. I love teaching people stuff about smash and watching them go like "ohhhhh, that helps so much." ^_^

Ok then tell me stuff next time =)

 

[Miggz]

I wish I was able to attend tournaments.

Maybe when I go University up in Halifax I'll somehow play/meet more people. ^^;

 

[Stos]

I like that sentiment, actually. I'll have to start doing it more. I hate playing people when it's awkward and I haven't talked to them. For some reason I find it hard not to sandbag in that case.

just talk to them while playing haha im sure they wont mind and try to do funny stuff to make them laugh. i prefer fox dittos to execute this ***** or a match up that involves C. Falcon.

 

[Grmo]

LOL HOWABOUT LINK+FALCON VS SHEIK+JIGGS

WASN'T THAT SO MUCH FUN

actually it was painful to watch.

 

[FastFox]

Lololol, imagine Mewtwo + Pikachu vs. Falcon + Falco.

The Mewtwo team won.

 

[Stos]

LOL HOWABOUT LINK+FALCON VS SHEIK+JIGGS

WASN'T THAT SO MUCH FUN

actually it was painful to watch.

bahaha that was ****ed up, seriously.

all i can say is.. Dsmash!

Fastfox: woow haha pokemon team all dai.

 

[Grmo]

Lololol, imagine Mewtwo + Pikachu vs. Falcon + Falco.

The Mewtwo team won.

Congratulations

 

[Brookman]

this discussion certainly looks productive.

 

[Miggz]

What can they say? Its Friday! =P

No let me stop. lol

 

[FastFox]

Lol, let's discuss Fox's grab game.

Someone start.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

uthrow uair is pretty good
no, captain obvious is not my brother

 

[Grmo]

I think grabs for him are easy. You can do anything out of grabs. Like, grab a butter knife and spread cheese all over your opponent, then throw them up and kick them. This sort of crap works all the time.

 

[knightpraetor]

I didn't get an answer to this last time i asked, so someone please take the time to answer.

Vs falcon, upthrow to shine to regrab. When is this guaranteed, if ever?

Basically it feels like they can queue a roll and or a jab sometimes...IS that only when they DI the shine?

also, i seemed to conclude that it is better to do the shine at the earliest possible moment it will hit, because even with less stun, you need to start wavedashing out of shine faster to grab them before they land. It also seems that running after the wavedash if it isn't long enough will always allow them to move in time.

However, there are definitely times when i can tell that they didn't have any options.

 

[Grmo]

You're mostly right, I think. I'm not too familiar with this, but I think that so long as you're fast enough and they don't DI the throw, it's guaranteed, although I think if they DI the shine towards you then it messes up, but I'm not sure. Does anyone know about this?