Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Stos]

critque please. im picking up fox as second.

first match is a bit laggy skip like a minute of it and it should be good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h__ppA5gp7s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfKKYqZMH_0

check out my other matches too Link vs. Marth.

im in need of advice, tips and tricks.

edit: the sound is off for sure.. so ugh turn down the volume and play a song i guess. thanks in advance.

 

[Gea]

Its like I'm watching Brawl.

Wait... no. Still faster.

 

[knightpraetor]

gah fox dittos..if the opponent is camping you, it is pretty easy to overshoot a grab and get them, but when to use what aerials?

basically it seems tht most people camp you either by wavedashing backwards to get the grab or by fully running away when you try to overshoot the grab.

In the event of the latter, what are my best options. I can continue chasing them to the end of the stage...but is it worth overshooting an aerial? basically i find this is when i miss most of my attacks...when the fox decides to run all the way across the stage....also

are full jumped aerials better than shorthopped ones in such a situation? i feel like I can full jump aerial when they are camping and aim for the edge of the stage a lot easier with less chance of missing or getting grabbed...

i just don't know whether it's really worth overshooting an aerial if you expect camping . if you guess wrong and they don't dash back, you just aerialled past your opponent and will have a lot of landing lag compared to just grabbing and missing

 

[FastFox]

The way I see it, full-hopped aerials stop everything, whereas shorthopped aerials are better for da comboez.

also, i'm a king now.

 

[Silent Wolf]

The way I see it, full-hopped aerials leave you vulnerable, especially if done without the intention of sure contact. If you're using them reliably as a defense mechanism, then you may as well not do them. If this does end up being effective to the point where this is considered necessary or the right thing to do then you probably don't even need to worry about your opponent. It's not impossible for them to work, there's just better things you can do. Full hopping onto a platform with an aerial is fine. Bare full hopped aerials are garbs. Ban FD.

 

[knightpraetor]

silent wolf, how do you use shorthopped aerials on FD or some place they can camp?

I feel like it is never worth the risk..also, is dair or nair safer if you want to cover yourself from a follow-up grab from your opponent

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

The thing about full hopped aerials is that you're committing yourself to jumping along this huge arch through the clouds that takes ages to complete. You might have a nice little wall of priority going there, but that doesn't do you any good when they can just DD grab you or crouch cancel.

Shffl aerials are much safer because they end sooner and you can get the **** out of there if you wish. The less you commit yourself to a certain action, the better. Golden rule of smash.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, but you have the same run speed as him, so if he's running your chased nair doesn't usually hit..and overshooting it doesn't feel as worthwhile as just overshooting a grab..which makes me question why i aerial other than to punish their own attempts to take to the air.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Then don't. Simplicity is indeed often the answer. If you feel like you don't need to aerial, then just go for the grab. If it works, good job. If it doesn't, look back and examine the circumstances under which you made the decision to grab and if an aerial would have been better, do that next time. That's how you get better.

 

[Miggz]

silent wolf, how do you use shorthopped aerials on FD or some place they can camp?

I feel like it is never worth the risk..also, is dair or nair safer if you want to cover yourself from a follow-up grab from your opponent

I know this question was aimed at SW but I'll randomly throw in my input, even though you didn't ask for it. Hope you don't mind. ^^;

It sounds like you simply have accuracy problems. Fox's bread and butter SHFFL aerials require a lot of precision. For SHFFL dairs you kind of have to get right in your opponent's face. As for the nair, it being a "sex kick" you don't have to be as close as say the dair when hitting with this aerial. But at higher percents I just tend to go nair crazy on my opponent. =P

But for whatever reason, if you still don't feel comfortable, use your laser to stop camping. Of course if you are fighting a Falco or another Fox you're going to have to go over there and give em some aerial pressure.

Hope this helps.

 

[Brookman]

the Way I See It, Full-hopped Aerials Leave You Vulnerable, Especially If Done Without The Intention Of Sure Contact. If You're Using Them Reliably As A Defense Mechanism, Then You May As Well Not Do Them. If This Does End Up Being Effective To The Point Where This Is Considered Necessary Or The Right Thing To Do Then You Probably Don't Even Need To Worry About Your Opponent. It's Not Impossible For Them To Work, There's Just Better Things You Can Do. Full Hopping Onto A Platform With An Aerial Is Fine. Bare Full Hopped Aerials Are Garbs. Ban Fd.

Amen .

I went to watch this vid cause all the talk about full hopping aerials. I wanted to say that you don't NEED to move FORWARD just cause you're using a full hop nair. I watched it and didn't realize I was blue on the first stock, then I get *****!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fxRYhyIRdI

 

[Miggz]

You're pretty good Brookman.

Have you recorded lately?

^^

 

[halcyon.days]

Raynex does this all the time but... uthrow waveshine backwards turnaround usmash. If they don't DI the uthrow will they always go behind you when they get hit when your shine? Or if they DI it will they end up going in front of you?

Also I watched some matches and you see shine nair shine nair repeatedly. Is this fox's version of the pillar?

 

[Miggz]

Raynex does this all the time but... uthrow waveshine backwards turnaround usmash. If they don't DI the uthrow will they always go behind you when they get hit when your shine? Or if they DI it will they end up going in front of you?

Also I watched some matches and you see shine nair shine nair repeatedly. Is this fox's version of the pillar?

The only similarity between Fox's nair to shine repeatedly, and Falco's pillaring is that they both serve as a way to apply pressure to your opponent. Other then that, they aren't very similar.

 

[halcyon.days]

The only similarity between Fox's nair to shine repeatedly, and Falco's pillaring is that they both serve as a way to apply pressure to your opponent. Other then that, they aren't very similar.

Isn't pillaring just applying shield pressure? That's what I meant when I said "similar".

 

[Miggz]

Isn't pillaring just applying shield pressure? That's what I meant when I said "similar".

Oh well then yeah, in that respect they are alike. Obviously when Fox's/Falco's shine hits then its a different ball game for both.

 

[Tomacawk]

Isn't pillaring just applying shield pressure? That's what I meant when I said "similar".

fox "pillars" to pressure a shield, force your opponent to making a mistake, or getting the nair / shine hit and then tech chasing to a grab.
falco pillars to pressure a shield, and then start a combo from the dair or shine, whichever hits.

 

[knightpraetor]

well, thanks for the advice everyone, though i'd still like a lot more info on when, where, and why people choose to use a shorthop nair/dair approach instead of just dash grabbing...basically i'm just looking for more ways to punish grab camping since that seems to be what the matchup revolves around at my level..

i was thinking that i could cover my aerials better with jab maybe..but that opens up CC opportunities for them..shine can be outranged i think?

gah, i'm so bad at this matchup..anything that can help would be nice..maybe i'll try to record sometime with a variety of matches in which i use a different overall strategy for each

edit: I'm referencing fox dittos only. It's really my worst matchup currently:\

 

[Miggz]

well, thanks for the advice everyone, though i'd still like a lot more info on when, where, and why people choose to use a shorthop nair/dair approach instead of just dash grabbing...basically i'm just looking for more ways to punish grab camping since that seems to be what the matchup revolves around at my level..

i was thinking that i could cover my aerials better with jab maybe..but that opens up CC opportunities for them..shine can be outranged i think?

gah, i'm so bad at this matchup..anything that can help would be nice..maybe i'll try to record sometime with a variety of matches in which i use a different overall strategy for each

edit: I'm referencing fox dittos only. It's really my worst matchup currently:\

Its not a matter of solely using short hop aerials as a approach over dash grabbing. Your game play should be a healthy mix of the two.

But if you really wish for more advice, I'll be happy to help you. When you grab a Fox at low percent with Fox, I tend to up throw chain grab a few times, to up smash. Depending on the enemy's DI, I would use uair if they go straight up. If they drift away from my up smash pursue them with a full hop nair. Another grab option (which is my personal favorite) is to grab at 0%, up throw and **** with a few up tilts, to a dash attack, to another up tilt followed by a bair. Its totally up to you, I just try to have fun with it and get creative. My final option I can suggest to you after a grab at 0% is to do a up throw to waveshine. This can lead into tech chasing.

As I mentioned earlier, a solid Fox game play is based on a healthy blend of grabs and aerials. So you have to learn how to SHFFL your aerials fluidly, and follow them up with waveshines, grabs, or even jabs (preferably at higher percents cause they lead to a nice up smash).

In theory, whenever a Fox player is off the stage, that should equal a lost stock. If a Fox uses his phantasm/side B to sweet the edge you knock him out of it with a well placed jab, or a forward tilt if you are feeling confident. After this, you have multiple options. Remember, Fox's Fire Fox takes a considerably amount of time to charge, which is a huge weakness for the Fox player, but a blessing for you. While the Fire Fox is charging, you can run off the level and shine spike, turn around and wavedash onto the edge, or simply wait near the edge and use down smash when they are close enough. I recommend keeping your back to the stage majority of the time when edge guarding with Fox. Makes killing them with a bair easier.

Also remember to be less predictable with your techs. As a fast faller you will have to tech consistently, but at the same time, making sure you aren't teching the same direction/way over and over. These could also be the problem.

But as you said, maybe you should post a vid so we can help you better. But at the end of the day, its all you. These are merely suggestions.

 

[knightpraetor]

what i'm really looking for is an argument of why you need aerials for approaching purposes if at all..of course you can use it to punish their full jumps and stuff as a reaction..or to punish them for retreating to the edge of the stage where they have no room to dodge the nair.

but as an approach in the center of the stage, does it have any uses? and why? camping utterly destroys my aerial game..and I can camp the aerial game of most people i 've played too. and honestly, I'm mostly only concerned with how to play fox on fd and dreamland or places where grabs are extremely strong..platforms weaken grabs by 50% (based on them techchasing right..although pressure and patience may technically make them get a more than 50% punish rate)

basically i found that camping will beat direct aerial approaches, and only overshot aerials have a chance to hit, but by playing with overshot aerials you will be chasing them a lot, and it seems to put the chaser at a disadvantage to get that close to their opponent and aim behind them without knowing whether they will run away merely for the chance to hit with an aerial (of the two dair seems better since it may result in a grab). overshooting a grab on the other hand will get you 60% at zero unless you are horrible. So basically aerials only start to be more useful at high percents. But even then, grab > aerial does more damage and is more likely to hit with the strong hit of the aerial resulting in an edgeguarding position.


full jumping into the air to avoid grabs or to move around seems to be good and occasionally you will have to use an aerial to cover your landing (often bair). Obviously if the player on the ground is in the correct position he should use an aerial to punish the landing of someone who jumped.

So basically, I am not debating whether aerials should be used at all. I'm merely asking whether they ought to be used as an approach unless the opponent has run out of room at the edge. I'm specifically concerned with approaching an opponent that is camping in the center of FD intending to dash dance away or wavedash to punish your aerial with a grab.

In this situation, what should i be trying for? Is my best option to try to pressure him to run away towards the edge so that he no longer has room to dodge? what is the best way to get an opponent to move closer to the edge when he's camping you?


*i apologize for asking 10 billion questions; also, i'm sleepy and worried about whether i can get any farther in the smash scene when the matchup that seems to be my brick wall is my fox ditto, and all my attempts to study or practice only get me to go about even with the people i play, even when i can win other matchups quite handily.

 

[Miggz]

what i'm really looking for is an argument of why you need aerials for approaching purposes if at all..of course you can use it to punish their full jumps and stuff as a reaction..or to punish them for retreating to the edge of the stage where they have no room to dodge the nair.

but as an approach in the center of the stage, does it have any uses? and why? camping utterly destroys my aerial game..and I can camp the aerial game of most people i 've played too. and honestly, I'm mostly only concerned with how to play fox on fd and dreamland or places where grabs are extremely strong..platforms weaken grabs by 50% (based on them techchasing right..although pressure and patience may technically make them get a more than 50% punish rate)

basically i found that camping will beat direct aerial approaches, and only overshot aerials have a chance to hit, but by playing with overshot aerials you will be chasing them a lot, and it seems to put the chaser at a disadvantage to get that close to their opponent and aim behind them without knowing whether they will run away merely for the chance to hit with an aerial (of the two dair seems better since it may result in a grab). overshooting a grab on the other hand will get you 60% at zero unless you are horrible. So basically aerials only start to be more useful at high percents. But even then, grab > aerial does more damage and is more likely to hit with the strong hit of the aerial resulting in an edgeguarding position.


full jumping into the air to avoid grabs or to move around seems to be good and occasionally you will have to use an aerial to cover your landing (often bair). Obviously if the player on the ground is in the correct position he should use an aerial to punish the landing of someone who jumped.

So basically, I am not debating whether aerials should be used at all. I'm merely asking whether they ought to be used as an approach unless the opponent has run out of room at the edge. I'm specifically concerned with approaching an opponent that is camping in the center of FD intending to dash dance away or wavedash to punish your aerial with a grab.

In this situation, what should i be trying for? Is my best option to try to pressure him to run away towards the edge so that he no longer has room to dodge? what is the best way to get an opponent to move closer to the edge when he's camping you?


*i apologize for asking 10 billion questions; also, i'm sleepy and worried about whether i can get any farther in the smash scene when the matchup that seems to be my brick wall is my fox ditto, and all my attempts to study or practice only get me to go about even with the people i play, even when i can win other matchups quite handily.

I must admit, this is the first time I have ever seen anyone question the importance of an obviously good tool. Its like asking "why should we have hospitals when we are going to die one day anyway." Don't take this the wrong way, its just that your logic confuses me. But I'll do my best to answer your questions. After this post I am going to bed...its 3am.

Yes, using aerials (whether your foe is in the middle or not) is very important. Using an aerial (that actually connects) does two things. It either hits the foe, or forces them to go defensive, i.e. put up their shield. Both of these are GOOD! When you hit your opponent, waveshine, grab to up throw. These are things that will help drive your enemy to the edge. Hell, at the right percent, the nair packs enough of a wallop to push your foe towards the edge by itself. If your aerial hits an opponent's shield (they are in defensive mode now, which again is also good) you can waveshine behind them, turn around and grab, and throw them in any way you want in order to make them go towards the edge.

You are also taking this camping thing way too seriously. If it bugs you that much, run up to the Fox player and put up your shield. This might make your foe spot dodge, which equals a free grab for you. That's how I'd answer to camping, well one option anyway.


If you are truly afraid of your enemy dash dashing/wavedashing away to avoid your aerial and grabbing you...then you clearly forgot how fast Fox is. If you SHFFL all of your aerials properly, then you should be able to dash away immediately to avoid any kind of retaliation from your enemy. If anything, when you dash away after your SHFFL aerial that missed, you can dash back in and grab your enemy after his failed attempt at grabbing you.

If you think (not saying you do) that by using less aerials in the middle of the stage is going to help you push your foe towards the stage, you are sadly mistaken. Yes, grabs are scary, but from my POV, aerials are more pressuring when done correctly (SHFFLed, followed by waveshines, jabs, ect). Without the pressure of aerials, why would your enemy run away from you? Are you starting to get it now? The best way to push them to the edge is to use BOTH grabs and a series of SHFFL nairs/dairs and their respective follow ups. Besides, relying solely on grabs at lower percents will make you predicable.

I don't mind the million questions. I don't mean to sound harsh either. I shouldn't even be up this late. lol I just hope one day someone will help you understand the logic being presented to you. If the Fox dittos match up bother you that much try picking up Marth or something, although you seem like a determined, and capable individual, so I see you sticking with Fox as an answer. Oh and degrading all of your attempts as if they are futile will not help you at all. So I recommend watching the "Proper Mindset Video" by Gimpyfish.

Good luck and good night.

 

[FastFox]

I'm going to quote this because it's awesome.

"Do stuff win"

 

[ArcNatural]

Your mostly right Miggz, but Fox can't avoid all retaliation if he shffls properly. He can get grabbed straight out of the nair vs characters like Marth. He can avoid a majority of it though, providing you mix up dashing, spotdodging, and rolling buffered from the shffl.

Whenever I play people that camp (by either dash dance camping to grab or wavedashing back) there are multiple ways around it. Nothing is guaranteed, but hey, neither is dashdance/wavedash back camping.

Here is my list (with Fox):

1. Running to CC shine wavedash (this is a chase where you run where you predict they will dash or wavedash back and shine them.

2. My favorite for dash dance campers is running to shield slight delay and grab. They often run right into it if you time it well. Timing is critical though.

3. Running fulljump bair behind them. Same thing, you jump where they would have been if they didn't dash away or wavedash. This is relatively safe unless it gets predictable. If they dash back or wavedash back and it's improperly spaced you bair behind them. If they compensate for the fulljump by dashing back further you just waveland. If they just shield and don't move back at all your still behind them and can space the bair pretty well.

4. shffling like PC Chris. All this really consists of is just short hopping where they are standing, and letting the momentum cover the wavedash and dash dance options. This is pretty good and will still hit them where they are standing if they don't move. This also gives you time to react (such as if they keep dashing away you can clearly see this and not have to jump). I mean your planning for the dash away here, so you shouldn't be jumping too early.

5. sh/fj wavelanding. Very useful. Sh waveland forward to upsmash/jab/grab catches wavedashing back a lot, dash dancing you have to wait for the dash back forward and time the jab upsmash.

Honestly, a lot of mistakes countering the dash dance camping is simply because people rush and don't try to properly time the jab/spotdodge. In general campers are already committed once your in the air the way they like it, as long as you don't overreact you can generally prevent it as well as they can get it.

 

[knightpraetor]

Your mostly right Miggz, but Fox can't avoid all retaliation if he shffls properly. He can get grabbed straight out of the nair vs characters like Marth. He can avoid a majority of it though, providing you mix up dashing, spotdodging, and rolling buffered from the shffl.

Whenever I play people that camp (by either dash dance camping to grab or wavedashing back) there are multiple ways around it. Nothing is guaranteed, but hey, neither is dashdance/wavedash back camping.

Here is my list (with Fox):

1. Running to CC shine wavedash (this is a chase where you run where you predict they will dash or wavedash back and shine them.

2. My favorite for dash dance campers is running to shield slight delay and grab. They often run right into it if you time it well. Timing is critical though.

3. Running fulljump bair behind them. Same thing, you jump where they would have been if they didn't dash away or wavedash. This is relatively safe unless it gets predictable. If they dash back or wavedash back and it's improperly spaced you bair behind them. If they compensate for the fulljump by dashing back further you just waveland. If they just shield and don't move back at all your still behind them and can space the bair pretty well.

4. shffling like PC Chris. All this really consists of is just short hopping where they are standing, and letting the momentum cover the wavedash and dash dance options. This is pretty good and will still hit them where they are standing if they don't move. This also gives you time to react (such as if they keep dashing away you can clearly see this and not have to jump). I mean your planning for the dash away here, so you shouldn't be jumping too early.

5. sh/fj wavelanding. Very useful. Sh waveland forward to upsmash/jab/grab catches wavedashing back a lot, dash dancing you have to wait for the dash back forward and time the jab upsmash.

Honestly, a lot of mistakes countering the dash dance camping is simply because people rush and don't try to properly time the jab/spotdodge. In general campers are already committed once your in the air the way they like it, as long as you don't overreact you can generally prevent it as well as they can get it.

I use #1, haven't ever done #2, and #4 is the one i keep questioning..I don't deny it hits them though, it just hits for 10-30 instead of 30-60 like when i aim a grab behind them.

Anyways, the main issue i have is with what miggs said:

If you are truly afraid of your enemy dash dashing/wavedashing away to avoid your aerial and grabbing you...then you clearly forgot how fast Fox is. If you SHFFL all of your aerials properly, then you should be able to dash away immediately to avoid any kind of retaliation from your enemy. If anything, when you dash away after your SHFFL aerial that missed, you can dash back in and grab your enemy after his failed attempt at grabbing you.

Yes, I am truly afraid of them dashdancing, at most percents i get 30-60 off of a grab, but occasionally i screw up and miss the grab. However, i have a friend who never misses the chaingrab even at low percents when di'd behind him.

Why would you be able to dash away after your nair before they run in and grab you, fox is just as fast as you, while you have aerial landing time. it's not like fox's nair boxes out as well as marth's fair. I mean, it's not even difficult to punish marth's landing with sheik's dash attack, but fox has a lot more speed.

I do agree that you can get the jab/shine/spotdodge/roll off though..perhaps i'm just not using those options enough? or more likely, i think i shine at least 80% of the time..so probably they run up and outspace the shine with their grab..maybe i need to work on my timing for that.

Another big question I have is when i should empty short hop. particularly the running one, I was thinking that it would be worthwhile to fake some when they are dashing away, because if i delay my nair like that I should be able to react to their run and just not nair and keep chasing and eventually they will run out of space.

I'm guessing if i play like this, that should force my opponent to use more aerials and camp less? I don't know though, i haven't seen any empty shorthopping in the matches of pc chris vs eggm and jfox that i watch constantly.

 

[Miggz]

I use #1, haven't ever done #2, and #4 is the one i keep questioning..I don't deny it hits them though, it just hits for 10-30 instead of 30-60 like when i aim a grab behind them.

Anyways, the main issue i have is with what miggs said:



Yes, I am truly afraid of them dashdancing, at most percents i get 30-60 off of a grab, but occasionally i screw up and miss the grab. However, i have a friend who never misses the chaingrab even at low percents when di'd behind him.

Why would you be able to dash away after your nair before they run in and grab you, fox is just as fast as you, while you have aerial landing time. it's not like fox's nair boxes out as well as marth's fair. I mean, it's not even difficult to punish marth's landing with sheik's dash attack, but fox has a lot more speed.

I do agree that you can get the jab/shine/spotdodge/roll off though..perhaps i'm just not using those options enough? or more likely, i think i shine at least 80% of the time..so probably they run up and outspace the shine with their grab..maybe i need to work on my timing for that.

Another big question I have is when i should empty short hop. particularly the running one, I was thinking that it would be worthwhile to fake some when they are dashing away, because if i delay my nair like that I should be able to react to their run and just not nair and keep chasing and eventually they will run out of space.

I'm guessing if i play like this, that should force my opponent to use more aerials and camp less? I don't know though, i haven't seen any empty shorthopping in the matches of pc chris vs eggm and jfox that i watch constantly.

Well it all depends on how far off your nair actually was, which is something I should have mentioned. Its kind of hard for me to explain. Hopefully when I post some videos on the boards in a few weeks (I'll say early April) I can show you what I mean. But Arcnatural is right, it isn't always possible, I suppose.

As for your empty short hop question, you should do it as close to your opponent as possible, as if you are aiming for a SHFFL dair. Its risky, but its truly worth it because its a good chance your opponent will react defensively (shielding, rolling, spot dodge), which again, allows you a free grab/up smash. Empty short hops aren't very effective from a distance. If anything, it makes you look dangerous and fluid from a distance, which is simply good for movement's sake. But in general, use it when you get very close to your opponent, sparingly of course.

If you have more thoughts/questios just keep them coming. Myself an others will keep answering your questions the best we can.

 

[ArcNatural]

Well for your issue with the PC Chris grab one. It's much safer than trying to aim the grab. If you miss the shffl your relatively safe, either you hit them or you end up behind them. Both situations make you unable to be grabbed if you do it right, and can lead to tech chases or predictable pressure. If you miss your grab your extremely vulnerable if your opponent is close to you at all.

Another thing to point out is if you say do a fulljump nair and DI backwards. It is MUCH harder to get grabbed than if you did it straight up and down or forward. So if you find yourself in a situation where you realize that your in trouble DIing away to a spotdodge/roll/grab/dash away does work.

You should try empty wavelanding (when your first trying to learn it) in situations where you remember yourself typically getting grabbed or your opponent normally wins in that particular situation. Like say you trap them near the edge but you fulljump fair and get shield grabbed. Next time try fulljumping to wavelanding to bait the grab. I agree with Miggz with the fact that if your actually trying to trick your opponent with it you need to be really close. Close enough that they expect hitstun from something.

Shffling is generally safer than grabbing and can lead to grabs. But a major problem with most tournament players is that they lose their head and shffl extremely predictably at least a few times during matches. On FD you should never aim a shffl to land where someone is standing if they aren't doing something. Shffling a nair on top of a fsmash/dash attack? Ok. Shffling a nair where they are standing when they can dash/shield/wavedash back? Stupid.

Another habit to break is when you play CCers that you do not want to nair asap. You need to mix in late nairs in both full jump and sh situations. With enough practice with those, you can actually waveland back instead if you see that they aren't where you planned them to be.

Something else to point out. If you waveland back/ dash away / wavedash back camp enough. It basically gives you an advantage for when you actually attack forward. So if your playing someone who is good at dash dance camping and your not bad at it yourself you just need to make them feel like your defensive as well. To make your shffls less predictable.

 

[Brookman]

There are so many cool things you can do with spacing in this game. Don't listen to miggz knight, he doesn't really know any more than you. If you don't believe something is 'good' or worth using, don't. Many players just ignore fox's other moves and rely completely on his nair. Fox's tilts and smashes and other aerials are all GREAT moves. Angling his f tilt is so good in conjunction with other moves.

As I said several posts back, learn your spacing.

Something I've been meaning to try: Spaced bair on marth's shield can still be grabbed, however, if you lcancel and JAB once maybe twice, can you dodge the grab and counter with your own?


EDIT: If PEOPLE ARE DASH DANCE CAMPING YOU RELENTLESSLY THEN YOU AREN'T STAYING CLOSE ENOUGH TOO THEM!!! Dop't plan your attack and execute it from all the way accross the stage. You can't be afraid to get hit cause then you'll just get *****. The best advice I can offer you against dash dance camping is to CORNER your opponent. If you push them to the edge of the stage they have far less options than at any other location on the stage. Also, relegating them to the upper ends (platform stages only) also gives you more control.

Do you all understand what make's a sex kick so good? I don't even know if newer people know what that term refers to XD

Ever have a tremendous amount of difficulty beating sheik's tilts with your aerials? STOP using them and start using your ground moves.

 

[Tomacawk]

am I an ******* for finding all of that too long to read?
I get the jist of it. DD camping has only really been a problem for me when I played Eddie in a fox ditto at SMYM9. It was 1-1 in pools, and I was up 3 stocks on game 3, then he started DD camping me REALLY godly (**** gdorf main spacing abilities) and he came back and beat me, and that game actually is why I didn't get out of pools.
But the point is, I wasn't as good then as I am now, and simply approaching behind him, shield approaching, or even a GRAB approach would have been fine. DD camping can be a lot of trouble when done by say marth, falcon, or fox, but it's not unbeatable. It's just something that requires unique approaches to get around, and, dare I say, "mindgames." From what I DID read I think your question has been answered, even though you seem to doubt them. Just try what they have told you, and you should get results.

 

[knightpraetor]

Well for your issue with the PC Chris grab one. It's much safer than trying to aim the grab. If you miss the shffl your relatively safe, either you hit them or you end up behind them. Both situations make you unable to be grabbed if you do it right, and can lead to tech chases or predictable pressure. If you miss your grab your extremely vulnerable if your opponent is close to you at all.

ok, that's true, a slight advantage then, so maybe nair will be as useful at least as grabbing at higher percentages. Again, I feel like i need to phase out all aerials that aim at a standing opponent in these matchups where they can dashdance camp. vs marth i don't use many aerials except when marth commits so i never have this problem against him...I don't really feel like marth has a chance in hell unless he corners you, so often I go in straight and just take the grab and autocombo to ridiculous percents. But against fox, laser camping isn't as effective so i usually approach.

Another thing to point out is if you say do a fulljump nair and DI backwards. It is MUCH harder to get grabbed than if you did it straight up and down or forward. So if you find yourself in a situation where you realize that your in trouble DIing away to a spotdodge/roll/grab/dash away does work.

I think i do this, i claw, so i always DI aerials in whatever direction is optimal based on their motion...I was starting to wonder why it was that everyone says FJ aerials are so bad, when i get grabbed out of them less...maybe that is just because i have a tendency to use nairs at their location, while fJ aerials are for predicting their jump and/or punishing them for getting too close to the edge without any room..or on platform stages where full jump aerials are amazing.

You should try empty wavelanding (when your first trying to learn it) in situations where you remember yourself typically getting grabbed or your opponent normally wins in that particular situation. Like say you trap them near the edge but you fulljump fair and get shield grabbed. Next time try fulljumping to wavelanding to bait the grab. I agree with Miggz with the fact that if your actually trying to trick your opponent with it you need to be really close. Close enough that they expect hitstun from something.

I wonder if i should learn to do this; i'm actually quite fluid at it as I found that in fox vs jiggs it is really convenient to readjust your spacing back to make the jiggs miss an aerial so that you can nair her. I mean jiggs just can't adjust her spacing in the air as quickly as you can on the ground. However, most of the jiggs i play don't use nair enough compared to mango or someone excellent.

Shffling is generally safer than grabbing and can lead to grabs. But a major problem with most tournament players is that they lose their head and shffl extremely predictably at least a few times during matches. On FD you should never aim a shffl to land where someone is standing if they aren't doing something. Shffling a nair on top of a fsmash/dash attack? Ok. Shffling a nair where they are standing when they can dash/shield/wavedash back? Stupid.

Another habit to break is when you play CCers that you do not want to nair asap. You need to mix in late nairs in both full jump and sh situations. With enough practice with those, you can actually waveland back instead if you see that they aren't where you planned them to be.

yeah, by your definition i make a stupid decision at least once or twice a match. this results in me losing a stock usually. I think though that the main reason i miss is that it is difficult to chase the opponent if they full run away expecting you to overshoot. Am I supposed to be able to react to them full running and begin my own full run in time? because sometimes i don't notice that i'm not catching up because i figure they are going to dash dance at the end and then they just keep running. I know that theoretically i should be able to chase them to the end of the stage, but in reality i don't tend to react in time

people in virginia don't CC well outside of the top 10 or so players to be honest. In my region i have not seen any players with an excellent CC game compared to what you see at a pro level. I'm trying to develop it myself, but it is difficult to build in habits that you don't see in others.

Something else to point out. If you waveland back/ dash away / wavedash back camp enough. It basically gives you an advantage for when you actually attack forward. So if your playing someone who is good at dash dance camping and your not bad at it yourself you just need to make them feel like your defensive as well. To make your shffls less predictable.

yeah, working on it. Thanks for the input. Do you think that empty short hops moving forward with intent to nair if they are in range are good against a camping opponent. It should be obvious that this will lose if the opponent chooses to aerial at you instead, but i was wondering if i should risk this or not. Also most of the players in the region don't have exceptional combos off of their air game, so i'm really not that afraid of getting hit by an aerial.

 

[Miggz]

There are so many cool things you can do with spacing in this game. Don't listen to miggz knight, he doesn't really know any more than you. If you don't believe something is 'good' or worth using, don't. Many players just ignore fox's other moves and rely completely on his nair. Fox's tilts and smashes and other aerials are all GREAT moves. Angling his f tilt is so good in conjunction with other moves.

As I said several posts back, learn your spacing.

Something I've been meaning to try: Spaced bair on marth's shield can still be grabbed, however, if you lcancel and JAB once maybe twice, can you dodge the grab and counter with your own?


EDIT: If PEOPLE ARE DASH DANCE CAMPING YOU RELENTLESSLY THEN YOU AREN'T STAYING CLOSE ENOUGH TOO THEM!!! Dop't plan your attack and execute it from all the way accross the stage. You can't be afraid to get hit cause then you'll just get *****. The best advice I can offer you against dash dance camping is to CORNER your opponent. If you push them to the edge of the stage they have far less options than at any other location on the stage. Also, relegating them to the upper ends (platform stages only) also gives you more control.

Do you all understand what make's a sex kick so good? I don't even know if newer people know what that term refers to XD

Ever have a tremendous amount of difficulty beating sheik's tilts with your aerials? STOP using them and start using your ground moves.

Was that really necessary Brookman? Really? Don't listen to me because I was giving basic advice? That is so childish. All you had to do is simply add on to what myself and others were saying about spacing or any other topic. Arcnatural did it very maturely, so why couldn't you?

The whole "don't listen to Miggz" line was random and uncalled for. Not to mention I didn't simply talk about Fox's nair the entire time, if you was implying I was anyway. Finally, nowhere is my advice did I say things like "you have to play this way or else," I clearly said at the end of one of them that this is merely suggestions, its all up to knight.

Nothing personal but I never understood random negative statements like that. If you don't agree with whatever I was saying, of course I don't mind. But don't simply state don't listen and don't back it up with any logical reason. I'm simply answering questions I feel comfortable answering. ^^;

 

[knightpraetor]

There are so many cool things you can do with spacing in this game. Don't listen to miggz knight, he doesn't really know any more than you. If you don't believe something is 'good' or worth using, don't. Many players just ignore fox's other moves and rely completely on his nair. Fox's tilts and smashes and other aerials are all GREAT moves. Angling his f tilt is so good in conjunction with other moves.

As I said several posts back, learn your spacing.

Something I've been meaning to try: Spaced bair on marth's shield can still be grabbed, however, if you lcancel and JAB once maybe twice, can you dodge the grab and counter with your own?


EDIT: If PEOPLE ARE DASH DANCE CAMPING YOU RELENTLESSLY THEN YOU AREN'T STAYING CLOSE ENOUGH TOO THEM!!! Dop't plan your attack and execute it from all the way accross the stage. You can't be afraid to get hit cause then you'll just get *****. The best advice I can offer you against dash dance camping is to CORNER your opponent. If you push them to the edge of the stage they have far less options than at any other location on the stage. Also, relegating them to the upper ends (platform stages only) also gives you more control.

Do you all understand what make's a sex kick so good? I don't even know if newer people know what that term refers to XD

Ever have a tremendous amount of difficulty beating sheik's tilts with your aerials? STOP using them and start using your ground moves.

first off, about miggz, i think most of his advice was too general, but other than implying that foxes aerial game is somehow totally safe, i didn't think what he said was totally off. however, the people i want to beat these days are pretty good, so nair landing lag itself is often enough to give them the grab, i do however, wonder whether I need to mix in more queued rolls instead of always shining/spotdodging or shielding into wd out and the like.

But yeah, the reason i don't roll much is that I always viewed rolling against fox as not as good as spotdodging or shine/jab. The reason is that if you queue a spotdodge and they don't try to bait it then you get a grab yourself, which hurts them quite a bit. However, if you do spotdodge too much, obviously they will start baiting it a lot...but i feel like i'm better off inserting jabs/shines as a mixup instead of a queued roll. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

I have to be honest and say i rarely find a use for ftilt in this matchup. I think the problem is that a lot of players either shield + wd out of shield a lot, which punishes it well, or they can shield to sh dair and start something from there.

fsmash is very useful if you can get behind them or some place where missing no longer results in an easy shieldgrab. dtilt seems to be amazing for CCing since upsmash often either lacks the range slightly or comes out to slow. I don't really know exactly why it misses....

i think maybe i get hit by nair and CC but get pushed back too far.

anyways, uptilt is amazing, it outprioritizes everything. Unfortunately using it in a nonpredictable manner can sometimes be difficult. I find it is exceptional against players who can't upsmash out of shield on command.

most of brookman's post appears to be telling me to make them run out of stage, which is precisely what i'm trying to learn how to do.
Do I:

1. run in with short dashes waiting and reacting to what they do as opposed to committing? this way they run back off the stage slowly hopefully. However, you're much less mobile yourself and easier to hit, so they may get tempted to attack you.

2. full run at them expecting them to run far away and then cancel into a wavedash, Crouch, or shield and move from there.

3. FJ (this is probably bad, but i don't mind full jumping randomly to try to bait them to aerial me or to fastfall and then go in for grabs myself.

 

[Miggz]

Hey thanks for expressing your thoughts about my advice. I truly appreciate that.

 

[Shök]

Do you all understand what make's a sex kick so good? I don't even know if newer people know what that term refers to XD\

Sex Kick = Neutral Air.

. . .Just in case anyone needs it. . .​

 

[Miggz]

Sex Kick = Neutral Air.

. . .Just in case anyone needs it. . .​

Not to mention it starts out "strong" and progressively gets "weaker" the longer it stays out, hence the whole "sex" part of the nickname. ^^;

 

[Brookman]

the most important part of the sex kick is the fact that it's spacing doesn't diminish. Unlike other moves like marth's nair, falcon's nair...fox's fair etc.. not that those moves are bad. It's just, the spacing for it will always be the same so it's easy to put your foot where you want it (note that the foot has the most priority and most range of the move, of course.)

 

[JonaDiaper]

falcon's nair gets shorter or something after time? or did i understand that statement wrong?

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, now i'm curious too, though i'd also like some comments on my other two big posts

 

[Brookman]

I don't think that anyone should be able to wavedash out of shield to punish f tilt...like, you shoul be able to at the very least roll or spot dodge I believe, if not shffle/jab/down tilt etc.

The spacing on fox's f smash isn't quite as good as falco's but I do believe fox can space his f smash outside of most characters grab ranges, excepting marth and longer...maybe kirby can grab him too? Falco can beat marth's f smash though.

Has anyone tried that bair thing I was talking about with the jabs?

To clarify the nair commet: The hitbox of a sex kick is constant which means, regardless of the strength of the attack, the spacing is always the same. I didn't say that the other characters attacks diminish, they just have low duration and are broken up into two or more attacks where there are vulnerable frames.

One time Zoso asked me a question like "When do you roll?" To which I respoded: "When I want to be invincible."


711 posts

 

[LumpyCPU...]

while we're on topic, how do you play as fox?

 

[Miggz]

while we're on topic, how do you play as fox?

Check out CunningKitsune's Fox guide, which is underneath this thread.

Has everything you need.