Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[PCHU]

I hope this helps.

Very much so.
Thanks.

 

[Miggz]

No worries.

I'm sure others will have more tips for ya too.

XD

 

[Tomacawk]

I was wondering how people did that.
But, besides racking up damage, of what use is this?
Is it a good killer?
Or is there no specific use for it?

Also, should I SHL against DK, CF, and Peach?
Or would SHDL be a better choice?
Or are they both situational?

Also, is there a good way to practice shield pressure?

And finally, why (and possibly when) dashdance?
I mean, it looks nice and all, but it doesn't really seem to throw anyone off.
Or, it doesn't from my perspective.

Sorry for the many questions, I just want to make sure I know Fox thoroughly.
I'd hate to apply something in the wrong way and get punished.

Shine bair is a good killer, but the shine doesn't give much more % and it's not worth the risk IMO. I do it when I'm ****** hard and start sand bagging and going for super crazy ****. don't be upset if you can't do it. not worth the effort IMO. you're better off learning shine pivot bairs, as they actually do serve a purpose
practice shield pressure on level 1 cpu's. go to corneria, put a peach/falcon/marf/whatever next to the fin, and practice shine->drill l cancel->shine->repeat. also, practice waveshines.
honestly, practice against people if you can. you can pressure a shield really well with mindgames too (keeping them in it and dding behind them or righ tby them)
IMO, SHDL against peach and DK IF YOU HAVE ROOM. frame perfect SHDLs will have both lasers hit them (same with falcon) i know a non frame perfect SHDL 1st laser goes over CF but I'm not sure about the other 2. be careful with falcon bcuz he can cover ground FAST and same with DK--only SHDL if you KNOW it's safe because he will deathCG you if he gets the opportunity.
and dsah dancing is ****ing CRUCIAL. You have to learn it by doing it. It will take a very very long time before you master it.


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does anybody want to team with me for POE2? I've got some IRL friends I could team with but I want to branch out and meet some fox boards people
double fox doubles ftw (i can go CF/marf as well,but I'm best with fox.)*ALSO CAN PLAY GNW IF YOU WANT SOMETHING STRANGE*

 

[Brookman]

Dash dancing is NOT supposed to 'trick' or 'confuse' people.

Dashing can be used similarly to the wavedash, to increase or decrease spacing. You have to learn how to control the length of your dash so you can go into range of a certain move to bait it (say, marth's fair or f smash) then out of range. You then turn back towards them but then away again. You DO NOT have to run back and forth constantly.

If you find yourself dash dancing and just 'waiting' for them to mess up only to be caught by a dash attack from a sheik or marth or the like then you're not playing the game correctly.

It's all about SPACING your character and his attacks.

Dash Dancing can be used to apply pressure at times, after they have teched or something. Or if they're in their shield (in which case I highly recommend reacting faster and simply grabbing them, once they start sidestepping blah blah blah very situational advice blah blah blah) However, this only works if the other player is afraid. If they aren't prone to side stepping or rolling then the DD is better off reserved for when they start side stepping. The most advanced technique in the game is called 'waiting.'

 

[knightpraetor]

my opinion on double laser is just don't use it going backwards ever unless you have 99.99% accuracy, and not just getting the lasers out (which is easy and even I can do), but always get full distance on the dash backwards. People often love to look flashy and use cool stuff, but if I had a dollar for every time the top 2-3 falcos lost a game because of insufficient jump distance on their reverse laser, then I would be a very rich man. I'm not even a pro like pc or dashizwiz, so why would i risk that? especially since RSHDL is more technically difficult than falco's lasers.

Basically I get it 99% of the time or so; but when you laser that much, it just isn't worth it if you lose a life by getting grabbed or something and get knocked out of the tournament because you thought those few percent mattered.

Anyways, to the rest of the boards, I've been training my fox dittos and getting better at always overshooting and the like. Thanks for those who helped, I would have to say the most useful thing was the reverse waveland, doing that really makes things easier.

I started practicing making sure that i can l-cancel + dash away after the nair..but then i decided that it isn't really that relevant. if they are far enough away that you can dash away safely it seems certain that you don't even have to dash away, your spacing is "safe" most of the time in those situations.

However, if they are slightly slow you might be able to queue spotdodge or roll while running away before they got to you..but in that case why not just do another move and try to take control yourself?

Basically I don't see it being useful at close ranges.

However, I was considering queueing the roll behind them as I start to dash away and they try to overshoot a grab.

1. would anyone care to comment on whether they think this is worthwhile?

i thought about it and ended up thinking that if i have time to dash away then i should be able to cover myself from a grab with a bair or something...However, a lot of people overshoot teh grab when they try to catch fox after they land; i rarely see anyone randomly wavedash back once they see the potential grab, therefore i thought a queued roll could get me behind them, and that it might be useful for switching sides near the edge.

also, my new trainee who plays falcon seems to be having trouble punishing nair to jab to nair once he gets caught in shield,

2. can't he just nair out of shield after the jab?


same thing happens to him with marth, he acts like marth's double fairs on shields can't be punished (please note: i don't play like this normally, i'm just trying to teach him to punish things properly) ...

3. can't you nair after the landing aerial?

4. I'm pretty certain that you can, but i'm utterly unsure as to whether anyone in the game can actually punish marth between the first fair and the second out of shield?

edit: numbering my questions so answers are easier to read

 

[RaynEX]

my opinion on double laser is just don't use it going backwards ever unless you have 99.99% accuracy, and not just getting the lasers out (which is easy and even I can do), but always get full distance on the dash backwards. People often love to look flashy and use cool stuff, but if I had a dollar for every time the top 2-3 falcos lost a game because of insufficient jump distance on their reverse laser, then I would be a very rich man. I'm not even a pro like pc or dashizwiz, so why would i risk that? especially since RSHDL is more technically difficult than falco's lasers.

Basically I get it 99% of the time or so; but when you laser that much, it just isn't worth it if you lose a life by getting grabbed or something and get knocked out of the tournament because you thought those few percent mattered.

Anyways, to the rest of the boards, I've been training my fox dittos and getting better at always overshooting and the like. Thanks for those who helped, I would have to say the most useful thing was the reverse waveland, doing that really makes things easier.

I started practicing making sure that i can l-cancel + dash away after the nair..but then i decided that it isn't really that relevant. if they are far enough away that you can dash away safely it seems certain that you don't even have to dash away, your spacing is "safe" most of the time in those situations.

However, if they are slightly slow you might be able to queue spotdodge or roll while running away before they got to you..but in that case why not just do another move and try to take control yourself?

Basically I don't see it being useful at close ranges.

However, I was considering queueing the roll behind them as I start to dash away and they try to overshoot a grab.

1. would anyone care to comment on whether they think this is worthwhile?

i thought about it and ended up thinking that if i have time to dash away then i should be able to cover myself from a grab with a bair or something...However, a lot of people overshoot teh grab when they try to catch fox after they land; i rarely see anyone randomly wavedash back once they see the potential grab, therefore i thought a queued roll could get me behind them, and that it might be useful for switching sides near the edge.

also, my new trainee who plays falcon seems to be having trouble punishing nair to jab to nair once he gets caught in shield,

2. can't he just nair out of shield after the jab?


same thing happens to him with marth, he acts like marth's double fairs on shields can't be punished (please note: i don't play like this normally, i'm just trying to teach him to punish things properly) ...

3. can't you nair after the landing aerial?

4. I'm pretty certain that you can, but i'm utterly unsure as to whether anyone in the game can actually punish marth between the first fair and the second out of shield?

edit: numbering my questions so answers are easier to read

My Opinion on teh Lasers

-SHL is faster, use it when you're facing characters that can match your speed or slow you down. (Fox, Falcon, Falco). But this is only if you INSIST on using it. Vs. these characters I would take laser out of my game and focus on getting hits instead of running away.

-SHDL should be used against literally everyone else if you can muster it. Why shoot one when you can shoot two? Only use it if you can do it 100%, because it isn't worth ****ing up in tournament. Same thing when discussing reverse lasers. Numerous times during my set with Darkrain, I'd end up doing two standing lasers and lose a stock. /johns

-SHDL is slower, but only by a miniscule amount. The extra tack of damage is worth the EXTREMELY TINY loss of speed, especially vs. opponents that will get hit by both lasers. Seeing as you'll only be lasering for a second or two anyways, whether you do SHL or SHDL really doesn't matter unless you're talking about damage.

-If you're deadset on mobility over damage, BUT you still insist on camping...then I don't know what to say to you. I find it really pointless to run around doing single lasers over and over again for camping purposes. Though, uf you find SHDL out of your capabilities, SHL is the way to go.

-I use lasers for 3 main reasons: To counter-camp people who ledge-camp for time or for gimps (Marth, Sheik, Jiggs etc.), To counter-camp characters that play defensively with DDing and platforms and expect you to run into their space/the edge (Peach, Marth, Sheik, Jiggs etc), and for an extra 10-20% of damage for an usmash or uair kill when I want to take a stock quickly.

--------------------


Falcon's grab should be faster than his nair out of shield. If you nair his shield with Fox, the jab will beat his grab if he tries to shield grab you simply because its faster. If he waits for the jab and grabs he should manage to get you. If he gets shined before that, then it means he was too slow when you jabbed his shield. People often sit in shield a split second too long after getting jabbed, thinking it stuns the shield or requires timing or something. uhh and ya I think he can nair after you jab his shield...but YOU can shield before his nair hits. Jab has a tiny window of end-lag.

Double fair on someone's shield as Marth can be shield-grabbed. Easy solution would be to just roll behind Marth because he can't do much when you're behind/close to him.

 

[Miggz]

My Opinion on teh Lasers

Lol.

When I saw this I kind of chuckled. I have no clue why.

If I didn't have a sig...this would be it.

 

[Brookman]

Jabs have IASA frames, no?

 

[The Phenom]

So I've been hearing about JC shines lately; why? Is there a new application for them besides showing them off?

If you know some vids where they are actually used in a fight please post; thank you.

 

[Miggz]

Yeah I have no clue why there is so much talk about them lately.

Its crazy. lol

 

[Tomacawk]

does anybody want to team with me at POE2?

 

[rustedfencepost]

I find it odd but i can only SHDL i cant really SHL properly i guess i cant time it

 

[Miggz]

That is odd! That's like saying I can short hop fine, but can't full jump. =P

I'm kidding.

Anyway, simply hort hop, press B/fast fall at the same time.

There ya go.

 

[battousai555]

When does shining out of marth's up-throw work? It was working for me at around 12% against my friend's marth. I assume this doesn't work if the marth player is good at pivoting grabs.

 

[chize]

lol wut do i do against link's up-b, its so annoying, i was playing against spife and he kept getting me with it, i want to have better matches with him next time

yes, i know i should avoid getting knocked off the stage

 

[Flamin Roy]

I have no marth experience and i need a help but against good marth players bc i recently did terrible and i just need to know what should i do against a marth since tech skill doesn't work as much as i thought it would

 

[ArcNatural]

I have no marth experience and i need a help but against good marth players bc i recently did terrible and i just need to know what should i do against a marth since tech skill doesn't work as much as i thought it would

The main thing is you need to keep your tech skill consistent even if you get CG'd for a stock. You also need to know when your capable of getting CC grabbed and how they camp.

Overshooting and knowing how to avoid getting grabbed/CC grabbed is key. I actually think this is one of the first real matchups players experience where you see how useful overshooting can be. It's bad to always overshoot though. Other than avoiding grabs the matchup is mainly about weaving in and out of his range and trying to figure out openings from there.

For the whole Falcon vs Fox nair jab nair thing. I don't understand why he doesn't attempt to grab while CCing if he thinks he is going to get jabbed. If you jab him out of the grab attempt and he is trying to CC grab during the grab (getting dizzy) you will grab them right after the jab.

Alot of people seem to make this mistake. If you attempt a grab you should always be CCing during it. Whether you want to try to CC grab or attack after CC is up to you. Shieldgrabbing to CC shieldgrab works a lot more than people expect.

 

[Tomacawk]

When does shining out of marth's up-throw work? It was working for me at around 12% against my friend's marth. I assume this doesn't work if the marth player is good at pivoting grabs.

You can shine out of the uthrow at 20%

lol wut do i do against link's up-b, its so annoying, i was playing against spife and he kept getting me with it, i want to have better matches with him next time

yes, i know i should avoid getting knocked off the stage

sweetspot your up b. no other way around it, unless they whiff the **** out of it or if you can up b over it

 

[krazyzyko]

You can shine out of the uthrow at 20%


sweetspot your up b. no other way around it, unless they whiff the **** out of it or if you can up b over it

Also, if you're edgegaurding Link and he tries to sweetspot the upB you can CC all the slashes except for the last one and shinespike him on the face, simply hold down the stick(close to the edge) and spam the B-button until he gets hit, then edge hog. It's so simple I kind of feel bad some times.

 

[Flamin Roy]

If any thing tech skill is not a problem im very consistant with that i just have bad spacing and i always get lured into cgs i need to find a way around it

 

[FastFox]

Let's discuss some edgegaurding.

Personally, I've got the worst luck in the world shining firefoxes and firebirds. My timing is wonky. One day I'll be good to go, and the next I'll be completely off. I've got no problems with illusions, though, which is good.

Anyway, I've determined that a perfectly viable solution to owning the **** out of a marth or link or fox/falco recovering from under the edge of the stage is to use the whole walljump-frames-for-invincibility-whilst-in-shine maneuver. I've started to do it more often, and I've realized how awesome it is.

For anyone that isn't familliar with what I'm talking about, you pretty much just drop down from the edge whilst grinding the side of the stage, walljump, and immediately afterwards shine. While in the shine, the invincibility frames from the walljump are still present for a short period of time, allowing you to sneak inside those hard-to-shine recoveries.

 

[Miggz]

I never really attempt to shine spike out of Firefoxes/Firebirds much. But when I do, I simply hang onto the edge, renew my invulnerable frames, and shine spike them when they get close. This methods works fine for me, although I wish I could naturally shine spike them out of their recoveries without the invulnerable frames.

Your idea sounds pretty nice too! I have go to try this one out. Very cool idea indeed. Here is one I am thinking about trying, particularly on Marth and other spacies. Have you back facing the edge. Wavedash off the level and immediately do a non fast fall nair. At the right percent, I think this could really screwup Marth, Fox, and Falco's Up B recoveries. Sure Fox will get hit too but I think it will hurt your enemy more, assuming Fox is at a low percent.

 

[EWC]

I just thought of a really dumb edgeguard that would be cool to pull off. When marth is under the edge, wavedash off and bair, trade hits with his up-b, tech-jump, then shine him. =)

 

[PCHU]

I just ledgegrab -> jump off -> bair -> firefox back.
It works fine for me.

Against Falcon, I'll shine.
But as for others, like Peach and Link, I'll bair.
It's easy and it gets the job done without having to time it.

 

[EWC]

yeah bair and shine are all you really need.

 

[SPAWN]

What happens if he techs your bair though. Then you're off stage vs a Marth as Fox. Doesn't sound too fun of a situation.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

its always a fun challenge to see how long it takes you to lose that stock

 

[Miggz]

I just thought of a really dumb edgeguard that would be cool to pull off. When marth is under the edge, wavedash off and bair, trade hits with his up-b, tech-jump, then shine him. =)

This edge guard sounded pretty nice until you went of into the tech jump shine part. But that's me. =P

 

[FastFox]

I like to edgegaurd with fair sometimes.

>_>

<_<

 

[RaynEX]

sweetspot your up b. no other way around it, unless they whiff the **** out of it or if you can up b over it

If they are standing there and an upb seems obvious, illusion sweetspot and go under. If you try to sweetspot with firefox from above the Link's late up-b will hit you out of it. Low illusions are best vs. Link's upb spike because his scrah has terrible vertical range (and thus fails at covering your other options).

I just ledgegrab -> jump off -> bair -> firefox back.
It works fine for me.

Against Falcon, I'll shine.
But as for others, like Peach and Link, I'll bair.
It's easy and it gets the job done without having to time it.

I suggest shining Peach and Link ALMOST every time instead of bair. Especially Peach, because the bair simply knocks her up higher and she upbs again making her recovery even easier. Sometimes I see people that force her to upb at low percents, but instead of shining and finishing her off, they bair and they give her a second chance. 1st rule vs. Peach while edge-guarding is always shine IF YOU CAN (from the ledge). Bair if it will kill her or if the level isn't very big.

 

[PCHU]

I'm having trouble shinespiking Peach.
She always gets me with her upB.

Does the shine break through it, or do I just need to do it before she upB's?

 

[EWC]

Grab the edge and use invincibility frames to shine characters with high priority up-b's.

 

[RaynEX]

Grab the edge and use invincibility frames to shine characters with high priority up-b's.

THIS.

You should spam frames vs. anyone you're edge-guarding to make it easier. Whether it be with Firefox stalls, illusion stalls, or simply jumping up then re-grabbing.

 

[PCHU]

Grab the edge and use invincibility frames to shine characters with high priority up-b's.

Ok.
I tried it before, but I forgot about it.

Thanks.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Let's discuss some edgegaurding.

Personally, I've got the worst luck in the world shining firefoxes and firebirds. My timing is wonky. One day I'll be good to go, and the next I'll be completely off. I've got no problems with illusions, though, which is good.

Anyway, I've determined that a perfectly viable solution to owning the **** out of a marth or link or fox/falco recovering from under the edge of the stage is to use the whole walljump-frames-for-invincibility-whilst-in-shine maneuver. I've started to do it more often, and I've realized how awesome it is.

For anyone that isn't familliar with what I'm talking about, you pretty much just drop down from the edge whilst grinding the side of the stage, walljump, and immediately afterwards shine. While in the shine, the invincibility frames from the walljump are still present for a short period of time, allowing you to sneak inside those hard-to-shine recoveries.

Wait is this the real Mic? I thought he was just a robot designed to infract people and close threads in Melee Discussion.

 

[FastFox]

Ha, ha, ha...

 

[Tee ay eye]

Is the closing of all the threads in the Fox boards relative to what I just said?

edit: nvm, I remembered it's April Fools Day

 

[Miggz]

I hope we get to keep thE green names after April Fools Day. XD

 

[Tomacawk]

Raynex, I was speaking about when recovering from under the stage. I assumed side b sweetspots were obvious (bad assumption, in hindsight)

 

[Milos]

raynex is really ****in good with fox

dis ***** ***** colbol, who aint no scrub. bernard come to my house the 11th, feat. mango pc and many more!