Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Zephil]

wow already 130 pages... I am expecting at least 500

 

[ETWIST51294]

I literally applaud the opening pro-ban argument. It has EVERYTHING that is wrong with the character, from VERY clear overcentralization (it should be noted that while MK already has an INSANELY high win %, this doesn't even count the number of people who have picked him up simply to counterpick other MKs or to grant quick and easy wins. I would say MK is used way, way more than his mid 20's win % shows), brokenness, and how this community continues to use horrid arguments to keep MK in play (do anyone of you remember the Apex tournament results thread? Almost every post was "Ally beat M2K. MK is not broken. Go cry, you pro-ban noobs". The onslaught of stupidity was palpable). And it doesn't helpt that the anti-ban side's arguments have been and always will be without merit, and doing nothing more than saying "nuh-uh" to the pro-ban's arguemnts, all the while providing zero evidence for their case (saying MK is overcentralized and isn't too good when he has a QUARTER OF ALL WINS under his belt is more than just wrong, it's worrying).

It doesn't help that MK's continual dominace will only continue to encourage people to pick him up or spend countless hours on trying to figure out how to beat him. As I predicted over and over again, Genesis would be swarmed with MK players. I was, obviously, correct, with MK players taking MORE THAN 50% OF ALL WIININGS. When looking at that and at the cost and time it takes to attend event like Genesis, why NOT pick up MK? This is what destroys a gaming community.

I hail from New Mexico, the first ever state to ban MK, and we still have that in place. Since then, we've seen Texas and some of Louisianna, as well as other states I have personally visited (like ND) ban or express great wanting to ban MK. I can PROMISE you, your non-MK character will become much greater without him, and your community will become a helluva lot more in depth, evolved, and more importantly, fun. Soft bans don't work, folks. We went sof ban for a while to help prepare our Genesis players, but all of us local top player agreed not to use MK. As soon as one person broke this rule, so did everyone else. And thus, in one littler tournament in New Mexico, we demonstrated the large scale, broken impact MK has.

BAN HIM. Looking at the both arguments laid before us, it is extremely clear which route to take. Looking at big name tournaments like Geneis, where 3/4, 5/10, and 8/24 of the top 4, 10, and 24 where MK players shows the obvious course of action. Common sense should dictate the logical route.

The time is now.

I bet 50$ that no ones gonna read this.

 

[Ax00x0]

Why do people keep saying Snake has disadvantages? He loses slightly to Dedede and then beats every other character in the game.

And yet, he has even match-ups with mid and even low tier characters. Snake can be beaten by a large chunk of the cast, something which MK has never seen. I could really give a care if every single MK player used Snake after the ban (although that would speak volumes of what said MK players reprsent), that'd be fine, because as gay as Snake can be, he can be beaten, and beaten hard, byt a lot of characters. It is fair, it is even.

 

[Kinzer]

Wow @ KID and his mad disrespect.

But n***a we don't need to bring drama into into this thread.

I know I may be bad, but MK needs to stay, let's take this to the Xat.

 

[BSP]

I bet 50$ that no ones gonna read this.

I read it.

 

[Ax00x0]

I bet 50$ that no ones gonna read this.

Well you technically read it, so can I have $50?

 

[Steel]

Please don't make any posts contributing nothing, this thread is still being heavily moderated.

 

[etecoon]

that was a joke exaggeration, its 60-40, and inui, you seem to forget why i lost to that snake, i sded second game

that post was a long time ago anyway so I thought you may have changed your mind a bit, but still in oli's favor in any case.

And yet, he has even match-ups with mid and even low tier characters. Snake can be beaten by a large chunk of the cast, something which MK has never seen. I could really give a care if every single MK player used Snake after the ban (although that would speak volumes of what said MK players reprsent), that'd be fine, because as gay as Snake can be, he can be beaten, and beaten hard, byt a lot of characters. It is fair, it is even.

what the hell is this? snake doesn't have even matchups with low tiers, the closest would be link, ness, and lucas at 55:45 snake IMO, most others getting utterly annihilated.

 

[Frown]

It would have been hilarius if M2K had voted yes.

I'm not going to vote. I have never faced a professional MK.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Well you technically read it, so can I have $50?

Ow darn it.

 

[hotgarbage]

My apologies for this late response, oddly enough while I was typing it out I came down with a 101.2 degree fever xD.

ANYways...

And isn't that what everyone who is voting yes is doing?

"Ban MK so we don't have to play as him to win and overall benefits us because we don't need to (1) Learn Meta Knight or (2) Learn the matchup (3) Stop maining a **** character who has no chance against ____ anyways"

First off, allow me to explain my stance here.

I think that voting solely for your own benefit is wrong.

The reason is simple. Just look at the title of this poll. It is not, "If Metaknight is banned will you personally benefit from it?" It is "Should Metaknight be banned". Notice the word "should". This poll is asking "Is banning Metaknight the right thing to do"?

By not answering this question and instead voting so that the outcome benefits you and you alone you are being blatantly dishonest and are manipulating the poll for your own benefit. That's all there is too it. It's votes like yours that really make this poll dubious.

And isn't that what everyone who is voting yes is doing?

First off, are you really trying to justify your actions by saying "well everyone else is doing it!"? Just because someone else does something does not make that something "right" or "correct". Next, are you truly trying to claim that ALL 1,009 pro-ban voters so far have voted with the singular motivation of benefiting themselves?? That's absurd. Could it be that perhaps SOME of them voted truthfully? That SOME of them voted because they honestly think that, wrong or right, banning MK is the correct course of action and that the community and game would be better off without him??

"Ban MK so we don't have to play as him to win and overall benefits us because we don't need to (1) Learn Meta Knight or (2) Learn the matchup (3) Stop maining a **** character who has no chance against ____ anyways"

.....once again you claim ALL of the pro-banners think like this. Some do, sure. But ALL? Generalizations ftw eh?

 

[Gamegenie222]

Snake has never inspired a thread on the Rob boards called "it's hopeless"

Snake has never been called "Marth with 10 jumps and a longer sword"

Mk has.



Do you not agree that defeating Snake with say Ganon, Samus, Luigi etc. is a whole lot more possible than defeating MK?




I can't think of a B-tier(better yet A-tier) or below character who's better off fighting MK than snake.

you bring up a very good point, i beat my friend's pika with my ganon a few mouths ago on smashville and his peach with my jiggs on battlefield, the point is it is never impossible for a character loss to a opponent who has a better matchup than that person and i learned that from experience cause i am a Ex MK mainer and i dropped his *** about a year ago after a tourney i went and loss then i start picking low, mid, and 1-3 high tiers that i have alot of fun with.

 

[Ax00x0]

what the hell is this? snake doesn't have even matchups with low tiers, the closest would be link, ness, and lucas at 55:45 snake IMO, most others getting utterly annihilated.

Sorry, I mispoke, I ment to say lower tiers, not low tiers, per se. Even so, 3 low tiers having even maybe a 55:45 with Snake is a lot better than No Hope, Kill Self, and Dead On Arrival, which is what happens when Link, Ness, or Lucas meets an MK.

 

[Inui]

Snake is grabbing Olimar why again? And it's not like Snake's are the only ones that think this, dabuz says 65:35 Olimar.

Because the game gives you tons of defensive options you can use to get in. Cross-ups and mix-ups with airdodges and sidesteps and grenades.

Olimar is a character that requires like...a full semester college course to learn how to fight. Too bad he sucks once you learn how to fight him. Snake wins. Snake playes don't have my experience against this character. They didn't play BlackWaltz, Atomsk, AndyG, etc. a LOT.

The match-up got so bad, Atomsk quit after I d-threw him once. Snake wins.

Dabuz is dumb and inexperienced and never fought a high level Snake in person. I BARELY lost to him during my first Brawl matches of the day after playing Melee the whole time and he was totally warmed up. Fatal, who sucks against Olimar, still beat him.

I was talking about the mk matchup.

Snake wins that too.

 

[Affinity]

Forget it...

 

[Sephiroth27]

I like counter-arguments that say "Well if this character just does this and this, then this will happen and it's just ****."

So the key to ****** Olimar is to constantly dthrow and to always be sure to mix it up. As long as you do that you'll win because for some reason the Olimar player is incapable of adjusting/adapting as well.

Oh, and forget elaborating on other matchups, let's just throw out Snake > MK because we feel like it, even though it isn't true.

 

[Red Arremer]

Snake has never inspired a thread on the Rob boards called "it's hopeless"

Coming from a character board with two players who are huge advocates for the Pro-Ban side (Overswarm and ChiboSempai).
R.O.B. players didn't step it up, as well. They just gave up because of a bad matchup. Wow.

And what does this prove? That they're whining about a bad matchup?

Snake has never been called "Marth with 10 jumps and a longer sword"

Mk has.

And what does this silly comparison prove? That Marth is A Tier and Meta Knight S Tier because he's simply better?

Or are you saying that the communities of characters who have Meta Knight as hard matchup whining about him have any relevance whatsoever? Because I definitely think that this is a very flimsy argument.

Do you not agree that defeating Snake with say Ganon, Samus, Luigi etc. is a whole lot more possible than defeating MK?

No, I don't. I definitely don't. Clearly, there are some characters that do better against Snake then Meta Knight, but no, they still have a very hard time against Snake.

I can't think of a B-tier(better yet A-tier) or below character who's better off fighting MK than snake.

Mr. Game & Watch
Ice Climbers
Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Donkey Kong

Those - definitely, I'd say.

Although I'm gonna go ahead here as well and say that your experiences are different to mine, most likely, and that matchups are very subjective.
I don't know about every character in detail either (that mainly applies to Pit and Olimar).

But no, Meta Knight does not make more characters less viable than Snake does. Or a lot of other Top Tier characters.

 

[Gmoney_]

I'm gonna go with the pro ban side. I read both Pro and Ban arguments and I think the Pro ban ones are better. The anti ban side listed the tournament results of the most recent Europe tournaments. I'm gonna look at the Netherlands one (because i live there). The top 6 results of both tourneys looks like this:

Brawl at Go:
1. Gaki (Wolf/Marth)
2. Gmoney (Falco)
3. Boku (Donkey Kong/Marth)
4. Mr-R (Marth/Zamus)
5. istudying (Diddy Kong/Ice Climbers)
5. Skippo (Toon Link)

TNOT3:
1. Mr-R (Marth/Zamus)
2. istudying (Diddy Kong/Ice Climbers)
3. Kaak (Mr. Game & Watch)
4. Gmoney (Falco)
5. Gymmo (Dedede/MK/Kirby)
5. ssj5goten (Fox)

If you look closely, you only see one MK in these lists and his place is 5th place. The Netherlands don't really like MK so they hardly play him. This is why you don't see a MK in top 6 really easy. Besides the MK who got 5th is arguably not top 5 (even top 10 probably) material. I can say he got an easy bracket and thats why he ended up that high.

What I'm trying to say is, I think that the metagame regarding MK in the Nethelands (I'm not sure about the rest of the EU) isn't as big as the US and that using the tourney list of EU as an argument for the anti ban, isn't really viable.

 

[Teran]

Snake vs Falco is a pretty even matchup.

Regardless, Snake actually has a greater number of significantly advantageous matchups compared with MK in the higher tiers. MK might "invalidate" some low tiers more, but low tiers are low tier because they're all round bad characters, not because MK is there.

MK and Snake are pretty much on a par, with MK having more overall advantages whereas Snake has stronger matchups but one definite disadvantageous one.

ONE, against a character who is also countered by Falco. So again, we have this cycle of top tier characters basically controlling the metagame. Well they would, but people seem to think it's just MK when it isn't, it's the entirety of top tier.

 

[ETWIST51294]

How Inui is saying about Snake>MK is kind of true. MK has A LOT of options but a good snake, like ally, can cover all of those options. It's like melee back in the day, everyone was playing Shiek, there were a few technical foxes and people were noticeing that Fox beats Shiek if hes being played at his full potential. So the Fox game grew and grew until he was the best. It may be worse with MK, but it can still happen. Snake is the only char that takes tech skill in brawl and his game is gonna grow.

 

[Tristan_win]

>_>

It looks that the pro-ban argument focus mainly on the mid level players while the anti-ban didn't focus on any group really while it worked to discredit the pro-ban argument saying that there was no way to measure mid level play.

This is a big problem for the anti-ban argument since claiming that something can't be measured is not a very good closing argument against convincing but hypothetical discussion.

 

[Allied]

that was a joke exaggeration, its 60-40, and inui, you seem to forget why i lost to that snake, i sded second game


edit: it still is a fair matchup for both sides, nothing that really makes the other character lose hard

Umad

10grrs

 

[SnowballBob33]

I think a lot of people here who don't want him banned are average brawlers who don't know what he is capable of. I think I saw some loser talking about countering tornado with falcon punch or some crap. WTF. People on the the anti ban side are either MK users or people who probably never played a MK who was actually good. Once you get aircamped and gayed beyond recognition, then say if he doesn't need to be banned. (this obviously doesn't apply to everyone)

There is a big difference between snake and MK. People actually believe snake has counters. Whether he does or doesn't because its all opinion people doesn't matter, at least think they have a chance. When some1 thinks of MK all you think of is an uphill battle with no options.

 

[Praxis]

Inui, Dedede, Wario, MK, and Falco all have an advantage on Snake IMO (55-45 their favor).

Ally's just absurd. There's a reason the next highest placing Snake at Genesis and got 9th and lost to a MK.

I literally applaud the opening pro-ban argument. It has EVERYTHING that is wrong with the character, from VERY clear overcentralization (it should be noted that while MK already has an INSANELY high win %, this doesn't even count the number of people who have picked him up simply to counterpick other MKs or to grant quick and easy wins. I would say MK is used way, way more than his mid 20's win % shows), brokenness, and how this community continues to use horrid arguments to keep MK in play (do anyone of you remember the Apex tournament results thread? Almost every post was "Ally beat M2K. MK is not broken. Go cry, you pro-ban noobs". The onslaught of stupidity was palpable). And it doesn't helpt that the anti-ban side's arguments have been and always will be without merit, and doing nothing more than saying "nuh-uh" to the pro-ban's arguemnts, all the while providing zero evidence for their case (saying MK is overcentralized and isn't too good when he has a QUARTER OF ALL WINS under his belt is more than just wrong, it's worrying).

It doesn't help that MK's continual dominace will only continue to encourage people to pick him up or spend countless hours on trying to figure out how to beat him. As I predicted over and over again, Genesis would be swarmed with MK players. I was, obviously, correct, with MK players taking MORE THAN 50% OF ALL WIININGS. When looking at that and at the cost and time it takes to attend event like Genesis, why NOT pick up MK? This is what destroys a gaming community.

I hail from New Mexico, the first ever state to ban MK, and we still have that in place. Since then, we've seen Texas and some of Louisianna, as well as other states I have personally visited (like ND) ban or express great wanting to ban MK. I can PROMISE you, your non-MK character will become much greater without him, and your community will become a helluva lot more in depth, evolved, and more importantly, fun. Soft bans don't work, folks. We went sof ban for a while to help prepare our Genesis players, but all of us local top player agreed not to use MK. As soon as one person broke this rule, so did everyone else. And thus, in one littler tournament in New Mexico, we demonstrated the large scale, broken impact MK has.

BAN HIM. Looking at the both arguments laid before us, it is extremely clear which route to take. Looking at big name tournaments like Geneis, where 3/4, 5/10, and 8/24 of the top 4, 10, and 24 where MK players shows the obvious course of action. Common sense should dictate the logical route.

The time is now.

<3.

 

[HolyCrusader]

Inui, Dedede, Wario, MK, and Falco all have an advantage on Snake IMO (55-45 their favor).

Ally's just absurd. There's a reason the next highest placing Snake at Genesis and got 9th and lost to a MK.






<3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjc-BlnT-fY
-____________-

 

[mountain_tiger]

Mr. Game & Watch
Ice Climbers
Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Donkey Kong

Er... isn't ZSS vs Snake 60:40 ZSS' favour?

Though I agree with everything else you said. MK doesn't warrant a ban with the current metagame.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Ally's just absurd. There's a reason the next highest placing Snake at Genesis and got 9th and lost to a MK.

Yep, because the MK player was better.


Unless you mean to tell me that a 55-45 match up triumphs over skill that heavily, at which point you are belittling people who actually play MK. Wow, aren't you cool.

 

[GwJ]

i seriously bet all the noobs who joined june/july or earlier are wi-fi'ers who get owned by mk and aren't good enough with there chars to win/

And I bet people like you who joined a year ago and didn't really post just lurked and when they realized their worst matchup was up for debate of being banned, you decided to post.

Don't make assumptions on post count or join date.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Inui, Dedede, Wario, MK, and Falco all have an advantage on Snake IMO (55-45 their favor).

Ally's just absurd. There's a reason the next highest placing Snake at Genesis and got 9th and lost to a MK.






<3.

OMG thank you, it seems the Ally hype is kinda getting in the way of people's judgment, as he is an EXCELLENT (not good) player with an EXCELLENT character. However, you must take this on a character vs character basis people, not a "Ally beat M2K at a huge tourney, Snake is more broken." argument.

 

[BSP]

so if snake beats mk, how does mk break the counterpick system?

 

[Marcbri]

Inui, Dedede, Wario, MK, and Falco all have an advantage on Snake IMO (55-45 their favor).

Ally's just absurd. There's a reason the next highest placing Snake at Genesis and got 9th and lost to a MK.






<3.

lol, Falco doesn't have an advantage over snake. it's either even or snake's advantage.

 

[Eazy23]

lmao at dabuz's logic.
You sd 1 round....and that causes you to lose 2 full matches????

 

[momochuu]

i seriously bet all the noobs who joined june/july or earlier are wi-fi'ers who get owned by mk and aren't good enough with there chars to win/

Wow, people still judge based on join date? Lol. Get over yourself. =/

 

[Overswarm]

I've got a better question:

If snake beats MK, why is it that SNAKE was the #1 in Ankoku's chart and was toppled by METAKNIGHT?

O_o

Something doesn't add up. If Snake beat MK, more MKs would mean MORE Snake dominance... not knocking him off the #1 spot.

 

[HolyCrusader]

OMG thank you, it seems the Ally hype is kinda getting in the way of people's judgment, as he is an EXCELLENT player with an EXCELLENT character. However, you must take this on a character vs character basis people.

This ^^ That right there. It proves one thing. You have no faith in your own capabilities. You rely more on what your character has to offer to you. Ally is a great player because HE IS A GREAT PLAYER. I'm tired of this johning. Thats what is. No matter what you tell me. Metaknight this Metaknight that. I only need one proof. Metaknight has lost a single match played by two human competitors.
*goes back to reading posts

 

[Fatmanonice]

Because the game gives you tons of defensive options you can use to get in. Cross-ups and mix-ups with airdodges and sidesteps and grenades.

Olimar is a character that requires like...a full semester college course to learn how to fight. Too bad he sucks once you learn how to fight him. Snake wins. Snake playes don't have my experience against this character. They didn't play BlackWaltz, Atomsk, AndyG, etc. a LOT.

The match-up got so bad, Atomsk quit after I d-threw him once. Snake wins.

Dabuz is dumb and inexperienced and never fought a high level Snake in person. I BARELY lost to him during my first Brawl matches of the day after playing Melee the whole time and he was totally warmed up. Fatal, who sucks against Olimar, still beat him.

Sounds like you're trying to save face here unless you openly admit that you're not a a high level Snake player. Considering he hasn't been doing offline tournaments for too long, I still think he has plenty of time to make you eat your words. Seeing how he sweeps my online tournaments (yes, yes; online players are sub-human, scrubs, completely unskilled, and should be horse whipped for being alive, there I just saved you a paragraph of telling me that my opinion doesn't matter and how I don't deserve to be here), and has beaten the likes of Anther and Ally already, I have full confidence that given another 4 to 6 months that he'll be the leading authority on Olimar offline.

 

[ETWIST51294]

I've got a better question:

If snake beats MK, why is it that SNAKE was the #1 in Ankoku's chart and was toppled by METAKNIGHT?

O_o

Something doesn't add up. If Snake beat MK, more MKs would mean MORE Snake dominance... not knocking him off the #1 spot.

<_< Won't Snake players be better in the FUTURE. Just look, MKs metagame is progressing wayy faster than any other character, just like shiek did in melee, when MK doesn't have anymore stuff to make him better then what? Snakes game is gonna grow. Every average snake is gonna play like ally in the future, just like every average fox plays like KDJ now. Shiek ***** Fox a long time ago, but Foxes game grew and now he ***** her. I think the same thing will happen in brawl.

 

[Ax00x0]

OMG thank you, it seems the Ally hype is kinda getting in the way of people's judgment, as he is an EXCELLENT (not good) player with an EXCELLENT character. However, you must take this on a character vs character basis people, not a "Ally beat M2K at a huge tourney, Snake is more broken." argument.

That's putting it lightly. The Ally hype pretty much brainwashed a vast majority of the anti-ban side (again, refer to the Apex thread where the debate over MK's legallity was "over" just because Ally beat M2K). Nevermind Ally and M2K have personally played 10+ times before, with M2K winning way more matches.

And nevermind the big point, and that's Ally and M2K are gods. 99% of the community does not and, in all probability, will not play on their level. So basing what a handful of people can do on a descsion that effects an entire community is amazingly absurd. I'm only glad now that more people are getting this, but I suspect it's being used too much still as a point.

 

[SmashBro99]

Ban Snake instead, he's better.

 

[Emperor Time]

Let's not joke here. This is serious business....