Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Tony_]

I hate when people talk about **** they don't know anything about.

Sagat wasn't in the top 8 at Evo because Sagat is "soft-banned" in sf4. He's not really "banned," but good players don't use him because he's so good that it eliminates the competition aspect of the game. Anyone who uses him is bad enough that they'd stand no chance at winning a tournament that size anyway. Sagat is still #1 in the game and if a good player picked him up and used him he'd be pretty much unstoppable like M2k is in Brawl.

Unfortunately this community is terrible. Most of you skimmed the "scrub" and "ban" sections of Sirlin's ptw guide one time and drew your conclusions that way, and there is no way in hell we could get anyone to agree on a soft ban because people want money. That's the entire reason m2k plays MK, don't let anyone fool you. He doesn't even like brawl, as he has said before and only plays the game for cash. If this were the sf4 community, MK wouldn't be placing top 8 at evo either.

I know this is old as hell, but I just HAVE to call him out on this.

Sagat isn't even soft banned in SFIV, even in Japan. You aren't even that good if you honestly think that Sagat is even worthy of a soft ban.

Also, all of the Sagat's got beat out by Daigo's Ryu at Evo. Don't talk **** you obviously don't know about.

Using Sagat does NOT make you the best at SFIV. Try playing SFIV as Sagat and you'll lose alot of matches and probably rage quit before you realize its not as ****ty as Brawl is.

 

[Espy Rose]

I know this is old as hell, but I just HAVE to call him out on this.

Sagat isn't even soft banned in SFIV, even in Japan. You aren't even that good if you honestly think that Sagat is even worthy of a soft ban.

Also, all of the Sagat's got beat out by Daigo's Ryu at Evo. Don't talk **** you obviously don't know about.

Using Sagat does NOT make you the best at SFIV. Try playing SFIV as Sagat and you'll lose alot of matches and probably rage quit before you realize its not as ****ty as Brawl is.

Didn't SFP clearly state that it was a troll post a few pages afterward as well?

 

[Clai]

Wait a minute... really? He gained... nothing?
Okay, play by play time.

1:01: M2K returning to the ledge, with 106% damage and 2 stocks. Dojo is at 42% and 1 stock, waiting for M2K
1:02 - 1:05: M2K playing on the ledge, Dojo watching carefully.
1:07: M2K grabs the legde, then uses 2 jumps.
1:08: M2K uses the DC. You can assume that Dojo's use of the SL predicted where a regular DC would end, but
1:09: M2K is safely on the ledge, beyond the half way mark of FD.
1:49: M2K dies, and Dojo has one stock left @ 61%

if Dojo woulda hit the regular DC with the SL, at worst for Dojo, he would still have M2K in a compromising situation. At best, he would've KO'd M2K, and instead of being down 61% (what actually happened) he would be down 42%.

but it's ok. Because M2K gained nothing out that. That extra 19% damage didn't help him at all.

Ok, I understand now.

edit: video link for easy access: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK8UA3BJIVI

edit2: also realize, that was EDC only being used once...

Are we really... are we really going to go through this? Okay, so M2K used the Dimensional Cape to put himself in a neutral position. Let's say that this technique becomes as good as the way M2K pulls it off.

Now, do you realize that this is going to have a marginal effect, if any, on Metaknight's matchups because escaping perilous situations is something we already know that Metaknight can do? Do you know that in almost every other situation pertaining to this, where the Metaknight's in a perilous situation, the Metaknight would likely be better off using his frame 2 up-air, his almost as quick but still far-reaching down-air, his frame 5 invincibility Shuttle Loop (5-8 if MK's on the ground), or the mutha-froggin whorenado, which has extreme priority everywhere except for the top? This isn't going to make Metaknight noticably better for using the technique, and it certainly, unrefutably does not fix any of the weaknesses that Metaknight has.

EDC is not breaking Metaknight.

Not in theory.

Not in practice.

No.

 

[Tony_]

Didn't SFP clearly state that it was a troll post a few pages afterward as well?

lol I didn't read past that, but posts like these are what is making every other community basically hate the Smash community right now. Posts like these can be taken the wrong way even its in good fun and if its nothing more than a joke.

 

[iRJi]

Edited because it doesnt really matter.

Edit: Anyway, this is my last post. I am pretty much done here. Have fun everyone =]

 

[MarKO X]

Are we really... are we really going to go through this? Okay, so M2K used the Dimensional Cape to put himself in a neutral position. Let's say that this technique becomes as good as the way M2K pulls it off.

Now, do you realize that this is going to have a marginal effect, if any, on Metaknight's matchups because escaping perilous situations is something we already know that Metaknight can do? Do you know that in almost every other situation pertaining to this, where the Metaknight's in a perilous situation, the Metaknight would likely be better off using his frame 2 up-air, his almost as quick but still far-reaching down-air, his frame 5 invincibility Shuttle Loop (5-8 if MK's on the ground), or the mutha-froggin whorenado, which has extreme priority everywhere except for the top? This isn't going to make Metaknight noticably better for using the technique, and it certainly, unrefutably does not fix any of the weaknesses that Metaknight has.

EDC is not breaking Metaknight.

Not in theory.

Not in practice.

No.

Are you trying to provide theory to say that getting out of that situation with a hurtbox is a better option than getting ouf of that situation without a hurtbox?

Are you generally saying that being able to go from one side of a given stage to the other without a hurtbox is not going to make MK better?

 

[momochuu]

I think we can ban him now.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Are you trying to provide theory to say that getting out of that situation with a hurtbox is a better option than getting ouf of that situation without a hurtbox?

Are you generally saying that being able to go from one side of a given stage to the other without a hurtbox is not going to make MK better?

Give me a bit of time and I'll explain it in frames. Also, unless you have personally tried to go up against this technique, stop talking about it. You have nothing to back your statements up, nor are you Dojo who could explain what he was thinking when it happened to him in the video.

@Bangelz: The situation you described was in reference to a person that attacked the DC BEFORE they knew exactly where the MK was (AKA re-appeared). Are people really this impatient when they play? You wait, assess, then make your move. If it takes more than 3 seconds, you pause and call a TO over to watch the rest of the match to make sure they don't use it to stall. You lost 3 seconds and a POSSIBILITY of doing damage that wasn't even guaranteed. In a game like brawl where very little is guaranteed, its not that big of a loss.

 

[verycoolguy]

voted no. even though i really really hate fighting metaknight, brawl will prolly become gayer than it is now. chaingrabbers will run rampant, and each will get countered by other chaingrabbers, some who's countered by marth, who's countered by snake and dedede, and they get badly chaingrabbed by others. itll be a cycle of chaingrabbers and marth and snake.
if mk is banned itll be better for me though

 

[prOAPC]

Metaknight is faster than Strider Hiryu
/topic

 

[LSDX]

voted no. even though i really really hate fighting metaknight, brawl will prolly become gayer than it is now. chaingrabbers will run rampant, and each will get countered by other chaingrabbers, some who's countered by marth, who's countered by snake and dedede, and they get badly chaingrabbed by others. itll be a cycle of chaingrabbers and marth and snake.
if mk is banned itll be better for me though

If the Metaknight falls, the Ice Climbers will rise from an icy hell (lolwut?).

*Votes no ban*

 

[thrillagorilla]

Well, ****. My apologies, DC is the ONE move that the Metaknight boards don't have frame data on. Suffice it to say, the move has much more start-up time than most of Metaknight's other options in that type of situation and he isn't invulnerable until he disappears. If EDC is used, then he is forced to use the laggy attack, or simply re-appear (which is not dangerous due to there being a small amount of lag before they can attack). Metaknight can be tracked using the position of the camera (its awkward, but very doable if you have payed attention to the way the camera moves in other matches). Here is the thing, the re-appear animation is enough to punish if you are in position (which you should be if you are following. Make sure to always stay on the inside of the stage so it is easier to follow the fast pace that he moves at) and he can't attack out of the re-appear animation. If the Metaknight chooses to attack, they run the risk of getting hit due to the poor range on the attack and the large amount of lag afterward. All you need to do as a player is keep track and stay close. Its not guaranteed by any means, but it works. And again, if they are staying in it for three seconds or more (MUCH more than enough time to travel the distance of FD) then you pause and call a TO over to watch the rest of the match.

Its just another option, nothing more. Does it change any of his MUs? Does it change anything really? If you want to prove the option broken, do so with evidence rather than a baseless hypothesis. Also, the burden of proof in on pro-ban and not anti-ban due to it being their hypothesis that Metaknight ruins the game. Anti-ban has no responsibility to provide any proof unless proof is given by the pro-ban side. This is why AA gave his information regarding characters that have placed in tourneys other than Metaknight. PLEASE make sound arguments rather than simply spouting off at the anti-ban side. I now understand why Yuna and RDK have a tendency to be rude towards the pro-ban side. I don't condone it, but I sure as **** understand it now.

Edit: Also, if you are that worried about it, use Mario and use this.

 

[Fatmanonice]

The cape **** is amazing but so situational that it makes me want to cry...

Regarding the Ice Climbers, I don't think they would become a huge threat if Metaknight was banned simply because the Ice Climbers easily have the highest learning curve of the cast so maybe they could potentially become a threat to high level play but definately not in mid and low level play. There's also how they still can be counterpicked both character and stage wise. Hmm... I want to hear more people talk about this tomorrow. *claps hands* Make it so!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Also, IC boards has IC vs. Snake as 70-30 snake.

 

[Red Arremer]

Dayum, I went to sleep, get up, and the thread has moved almost 30 pages. lol

 

[Falconv1.0]

Dayum, I went to sleep, get up, and the thread has moved almost 30 pages. lol

40 post per page.

Do it.

 

[Sosuke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0jwkcbnsO8&feature=related

 

[Fatmanonice]

Oh yeah, Captain Falcon's an even bigger man than Metaknight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpRxdHlOcO8&feature=channel

 

[Blatt Blvd]

lol ban ddd, ban chain grabbing, ban ledge grabbin, ban this, ban that.

play the game lol

also, good luck pro banners on getting a 2/3 vote.

2/3s of the community aren't brain dead.

 

[JUDGE]

Oh yeah, Captain Falcon's an even bigger man than Metaknight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpRxdHlOcO8&feature=channel

hahahaha^^
show ma ya KITCHEN!!!!!!!^^

 

[Thunderbolt333]

lol ban ddd, ban chain grabbing, ban ledge grabbin, ban this, ban that.

play the game lol

also, good luck pro banners on getting a 2/3 vote.

2/3s of the community aren't brain dead.

but apparantly you are don't come on this topic just to flame/troll please.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

lick my nutts thunderbolt

about akuma:

akuma was banned before anything significant could be proven(tourney results,vids of him actually being st akuma-like).

bad example.

 

[Red Arremer]

From David Sirlin's "Play to Win":

Many versions of Street Fighter have “secret characters” that are only accessible through a code. Sometimes these characters are good; sometimes they’re not. Occasionally, the secret characters are the best in the game as in the game Marvel vs. Capcom 1. Big deal. That’s the way that game is. Live with it. But Super Turbo was the first version of Street Fighter to ever have a secret character: the untouchably good Akuma. Most characters in that game cannot beat Akuma. I don’t mean it’s a tough match—I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is “broken” in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn’t designed to handle. He is not merely the best character in the game, but is at least ten times better than other characters. This case is so extreme that all top players in America immediately realized that all tournaments would be Akuma vs. Akuma only, and so the character was banned with basically no debate and has been ever since. I believe this was the correct decision.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/cheating.html

Edit:
Also HD Remix's Akuma is not officially banned. The discussions are still going on. Some tournaments ban him, some not.

 

[JUDGE]

lick my nutts thunderbolt

.

hey!!! we don't wanna get abusive dude......

 

[Strong Badam]

you have been JUDGED

 

[1048576]

I just don't get what is so horrible about a trial period. If the MK meta is so far ahead of every other character's meta, as anti-ban keeps claiming, then allowing others to catch up will cause the game to be less stagnant and will end the vicious cycle. If nobody ever catches up, then I guess anti-ban was wrong and MK really is just too good for other characters to handle.

 

[:mad:]

Hey, Strong Bad's got jokes.

And anti-ban begins their steady increase... .93% per day.

 

[MorphedChaos]

What is wrong with a trial temp ban? Thats a good question.

Another good question, How long would it take to stop saying 'the Metagame isn't developed enough yet.'?

 

[JUDGE]

you have been JUDGED

hahaha^^ wow thx dude^^
this is coool^^

@ morphed chaos

hmmm.....i would say it won't take a long time anymore

 

[Fatmanonice]

I just don't get what is so horrible about a trial period. If the MK meta is so far ahead of every other character's meta, as anti-ban keeps claiming, then allowing others to catch up will cause the game to be less stagnant and will end the vicious cycle. If nobody ever catches up, then I guess anti-ban was wrong and MK really is just too good for other characters to handle.

The arguement that has been made in the past is that during the trial period that Metaknight would "fall too greatly behind" and "never" be able to catch up again once the temp ban was lifted. Basically, because he wouldn't be used in competition, all the players who play as him would essentially forget how to play as him in such a setting and everybody would get a huge boost from him being gone so he'd basically be like Jigglypuff with a sword upon coming back. What's even more laughable is that this isn't too far off from things that people have actually said in the matter. I think this was somewhat seriously discussed the first time this poll was held.

What is wrong with a trial temp ban? Thats a good question.

Another good question, How long would it take to stop saying 'the Metagame isn't developed enough yet.'?

See above. Oh and the metagame excuse has basically been a way to buy time. A year and two months have passed since Metaknight overtook Snake and nothing's really changed when it comes to "Metaknight counters". Yoshi's Island Melee was banned and so were Corneria and Green Hill Zone. Diddy rose and then fell. ZSS rose and then fell. Yoshi basically put a gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. Snake's stayed about the same and the Ice Climbers are currently on the rise (although they've already gone through the rise and fall pattern once). Basically, only a few characters are still improving by a small amount (like the Ice Climbers) while everyone else is getting worse. Unless something really big comes along, Brawl's mostly tapped for what we know about it.

 

[tehf1r3]

"Ally is the only player to consistently beat top MKs"
WRONG
Ally is the only player to consistently beat M2K (since Apex at least)
Fiction beats top MKs
ADHD beats top MKs
Lain does
Sk92 does
DEHF does
etc etc
but none mentioned above have great records vs M2K
M2K is the best in the world and his preference is MK
he has practiced the most with his preference in Brawl and developed the biggest metagame
AND
he consistently wins with his preference
OBVIOUSLY
his preference
becomes "broken"

i.e. if M2K mained Wario thruought all of Brawl's existance, would Wario be the 3rd or 1st best in Brawl?

I apologize for changing the subject

 

[Red Arremer]

I just don't get what is so horrible about a trial period. If the MK meta is so far ahead of every other character's meta, as anti-ban keeps claiming, then allowing others to catch up will cause the game to be less stagnant and will end the vicious cycle. If nobody ever catches up, then I guess anti-ban was wrong and MK really is just too good for other characters to handle.

If Meta Knight gets temp-banned, the people forget the matchup and the whole foofaraw starts from the very beginning again.

"Ally is the only player to consistently beat top MKs"
WRONG
Ally is the only player to consistently beat M2K (since Apex at least)
Fiction beats top MKs
ADHD beats top MKs
Lain does
Sk92 does
DEHF does
etc etc
but none mentioned above have great records vs M2K
M2K is the best in the world and his preference is MK
he has practiced the most with his preference in Brawl and developed the biggest metagame
AND
he consistently wins with his preference
OBVIOUSLY
his preference
becomes "broken"

I... don't know what to think about this statement, but I want to state that M2K does share his knowledge to fellow Meta Knights (Tyrant and Dojo have learned from him, too), while on the other hand Ally doesn't train with other fellow good Snakes.

 

[MorphedChaos]

The arguement that has been made in the past is that during the trial period that Metaknight would "fall too greatly behind" and "never" be able to catch up again once the temp ban was lifted. Basically, because he wouldn't be used in competition, all the players who play as him would essentially forget how to play as him in such a setting and everybody would get a huge boost from him being gone so he'd basically be like Jigglypuff with a sword upon coming back. What's even more laughable is that this isn't too far off from things that people have actually said in the matter. I think this was somewhat seriously discussed the first time this poll was held.



See above. Oh and the metagame excuse has basically been a way to buy time. A year and two months have passed since Metaknight overtook Snake and nothing's really changed when it comes to "Metaknight counters". Yoshi's Island Melee was banned and so were Corneria and Green Hill Zone. Diddy rose and then fell. ZSS rose and then fell. Yoshi basically put a gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. Snake's stayed about the same and the Ice Climbers are currently on the rise (although they've already gone through the rise and fall pattern once). Basically, only a few characters are still improving by a small amount (like the Ice Climbers) while everyone else is getting worse. Unless something really big comes along, Brawl's mostly tapped for what we know about it.

Thanks for answering the questions, but do you think MK would fall that far behind? MK isn't all that hard to play when it comes down to it. MK is just EDC and your basic spacing/dodging/ knowledge of the matchup, there isn't difficult things to learn with him like Pikas Quick attack to Nair or stuff like that, so he couldn't fall THAT far behind, could he?

Oh, and another question. MK does destroy the Counterpick system when he is used, and even the Anti-ban argument agrees with this, so what can be done about that? MK shuts down a huge part of the game right there.

 

[:mad:]

"Ally is the only player to consistently beat top MKs"
WRONG
Ally is the only player to consistently beat M2K (since Apex at least)
Fiction beats top MKs
ADHD beats top MKs
Lain does
Sk92 does
DEHF does
etc etc
but none mentioned above have great records vs M2K
M2K is the best in the world and his preference is MK
he has practiced the most with his preference in Brawl and developed the biggest metagame
AND
he consistently wins with his preference
OBVIOUSLY
his preference
becomes "broken"

i.e. if M2K mained Wario thruought all of Brawl's existance, would Wario be the 3rd or 1st best in Brawl?

I apologize for changing the subject

I'm pretty sure all the people you described that are supposed "MK Slayers" lost to West Coast MKs at Genesis.

Wario would remain 3rd due to him being hard to use and having bad matchups.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Wario would remain 3rd due to him being hard to use and having bad matchups.

This, Wario isn't a 'pick up and play' character like MK, he takes a long time to get good with, since he is just so... sexy.

 

[Scipion121212]

So the argue is right now only about "when something breakes counterpick system ban it"
"no dont"
"yes do"
"NO.. *pulls out knife* freaking DON´T"
"YES.. *pulls out gun* fu***** DO!!"
"NO.. *pulls out BFG9000* DON´T"
"YE-BAAAANG"
right? I mean, should I concentrate on providing proof on that or something else?

 

[:mad:]

So the argue is right now only about "when something breakes counterpick system ban it"
"no dont"
"yes do"
"NO.. *pulls out knife* freaking DON´T"
"YES.. *pulls out gun* fu***** DO!!"
"NO.. *pulls out BFG9000* DON´T"
"YE-BAAAANG"
right? I mean, should I concentrate on providing proof on that or something else?

???

Was that supposed to be your attempt at humor?

There's not really a point in arguing, the OP already provided every point for either side. It just comes down to your opinion. Though anti-ban is where it is presently located at.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

I heard MK just got banned in Ontario tourneys, any truth to this?

 

[swordgard]

I heard MK just got banned in Ontario tourneys, any truth to this?

Sadly yes. People got butthurt over TO joe stalling ONCE.



Heck, most people didnt even WANT to have a discussion. They just wanted to ban him cause their PR has so many MKs, which is kinda ******** because its not forced overcentralization.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Sadly yes. People got butthurt over TO joe stalling ONCE.



Heck, most people didnt even WANT to have a discussion. They just wanted to ban him cause their PR has so many MKs, which is kinda ******** because its not forced overcentralization.

Is there a link or something with any more info?