Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[thanortinzak]

EDC is amazing. Its basically "Go wherever on the stage you want" move with no coincidences, which could screw over Snakes mine game for example. Not to mention its not all that hard to do. Do Down B, hold Down, tap Cstick up repeatedly, done.

The only way to get rid of EDC is to ban MK's cape. Banning a move means that you've banned something for MK and only MK. So why not go further and ban MK altogether?

Because the rest of MK's moves aren't broken.

 

[AvaricePanda]

EDC has not been debunked.
The anti-ban have been out here speaking about "theory is crap" and "it's nothing more than hypothesis."

So I provide this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8002246&postcount=5224

And apparently, I'm told
1) this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8002303&postcount=5234,
2) this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8002395&postcount=5243,
3) this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8002480&postcount=5248,
4) and this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8002615&postcount=5252

1) To this point, I already said that I do not agree with it at all. You have NO IDEA where the regular DC would've ended up. You can't prove that you know where the regular DC would end up, you're just theorizing, especially since the regular DC also has varying distances!

Uhh, yes you do actually.

Do a regular DC. That's where you end up. If DC has varying distances that isn't between a grounded DC and an aerial DC, they aren't large or significant at all.

2) To this point, you're theorizing that doing attacks that still have a risk known as a hurtbox are better than doing an attack that allows you to travel stages without a hurtbox.... can I laugh?

Actually no, because you're making it sound as if you can use DC in 0 frames and it has 0 frames of cooldown, when really:

13 frames startup, 28 frames cooldown. 55 frames cooldown if you use the sword attack out of it.

In most instances, another course of action would be better, such as a grounded shuttle loop that comes out in 5 frames and has frame 1 invincibility, or Tornado which also has good horizontal traveling distance, deals damage, and has very high priority.

Assuming you're MK facing a Marth on the ground, a grounded shuttle loop will beat most of his options. If you try to EDC away, you're getting punished.

3) To this point, LOL. I have nothing to back up what? That there is no hurtbox? And now you wanna say that I don't know about what Dojo was thinking when this happened? Does what Dojo felt when it happened even matter? Even if he said, "it was a good move, no johns," doesn't mean it's not a broken move.

There is a hurtbox. The 13 frames beforehand where you can do NOTHING, and the 28 frames afterwards where you can do NOTHING.

4) To this point, you can't be serious. Like I said, anti-ban says, no theory plz, and yet what is this? Theory. You don't have the frame data for DC, but you can just say that it has more than 11 frames of startup (the number of frames nado takes to startup, which has the longest startup of the possible options in that situation)? You also say that all you have to do is keep track of your opponent... easier said than done considering the fact that no matter how the camera may track it, you can't see your opponent. Also, staying in the EDC for longer than 3 seconds isn't the issue here. I'm not talking about stalling, I'm talking about being unable to hit what you can't see.

It takes 13 frames of startup, fancy that.

You don't attempt to hit someone when they're actually in dimensional cape. You hit them when they come out, which you can track via camera. There are few stages where this is hard to do; FD, PS1, parts of Castle Siege, and what? Other than that, by just standing in the middle, many if not all characters can react to the camera movement and punish wherever MK comes out.

Sure you can't see your opponent, but the camera tells you around where they're at.

It isn't theorycraft to say you can track the opponent in DC, because you can, or it has more frames of start-up than Tornado, because you can. Don't look at an argument and say, "omg theorycraft!!!1" when you haven't even been able to bring up a sound argument.

Read thoroughly and directly respond to this, please.

Its just another option, nothing more. Does it change any of his MUs? Does it change anything really? If you want to prove the option broken, do so with evidence rather than a baseless hypothesis. Also, the burden of proof in on pro-ban and not anti-ban due to it being their hypothesis that Metaknight ruins the game. Anti-ban has no responsibility to provide any proof unless proof is given by the pro-ban side. This is why AA gave his information regarding characters that have placed in tourneys other than Metaknight. PLEASE make sound arguments rather than simply spouting off at the anti-ban side. I now understand why Yuna and RDK have a tendency to be rude towards the pro-ban side. I don't condone it, but I sure as **** understand it now.

LOL @ all this theory the anti-ban side provided. Well, f*ck theory then, I challenge you to try out the EDC. Find someone who is competent enough to play Brawl, show them how to EDC if they don't know how to do it already, and play a couple serious matches with it. Be MK with EDC going up against a charater of choice and go against MK with EDC with a character of choice.

Lol @ all the theory/baseless arguments/indirect responses to posts and specifics/cherry-picking arguments that you have provided.

You're pro-ban. You're on the offense here. You're trying to get a character banned, so provide sufficient evidence that he is. Do you think this is broken? Provide a good argument and solid evidence with something to back it up, rather than saying, "It's broken," and calling anyone who disagrees with you theorycrafters.

This method of trying EDC isn't "evidence", as you're not using it in a serious match against mid-high skilled players. You're essentially just grabbing someone and saying, "Here, use EDC a bunch." If they suck, it's going to be easily punishable, and it's going to be hard for them to punish.

EDC is essentially an extended roll that gives more distance but has much more start-up and ending lag.

Have fun with that. You wanna talk about hard evidence? Try EDC yourself then, because you've done nothing but provided theory. Couple of things I want you to get about EDC:

Except frame data, and you have to provide not theory first before you can call us out for it.

1) Get how you don't have to move. (lol mindgames)

Get how the camera angle doesn't move in this situation, and you can just sit there and wait for him to re-appear.

2) Get a good feel for how much startup and cooldown this move has.

13 frames of startup, 28 frames of cooldown?

3) Get at how you fast you can infact do something after this move is done, specifically nado, SL, and another EDC.

28 frames is fast now?

Have a nice weekend, I'm done with this for now, and I'm practically convinced now.

So you basically just said,

"Hi I have an awesome point and I'm not going to take the time to look at the other side's arguments, actually read them, and actually respond to all of them instead of just cherry-picking sentences out of paragraphs because I know I'm right and there's no possible way I'm wrong."

Nice.

And for the millionth time, any extension of Dimensional Cape is banned. Period. I don't know why you're spending so much time saying, "It helps MK so much!!" when it's banned. You see someone doing it, you call a T.O. or a judge already watching will punish them accordingly. It's like saying D3's wall infinites are so good and D3 should be banned for them, when the wall infinites are banned and/or not usable in the first place.

He didn't know I was going to fair, I didn't know he was going to use DC. We aren't mind readers, we are game players =)

MK felt pressured, Shuttle Loop isn't 100% safe in that scenario. Nor are any of his options really. Sometimes, a player just isn't comfortable and needs to reset to neutral. With EDC, you can do that at any time.

By this logic, rolls are OPd and everyone should be using rolls all the time because they reset to neutral.

Realize that an ATTACK that comes out in 5 frames is better than a RETREAT that has 13 frames of startup and 28 frames of cooldown.

If you F-aired and he DCd, you would have hit him. If you F-aired and he Shuttle Looped, you would have most likely been hit by him. You could have F-aired as you saw him DC and still hit him.

In this scenario, I could have punished. He didn't actually use EDC.

So why didn't you punish in the first place? You said in that scenario, which is basically a scenario you set up yourself because you said

1) You were pressuring him, ergo you couldn't have been near the ledge.

If he didn't actually use EDC and just regular DC, you should have punished. You should have punished anyway, which you just said.

No, one c-stick tap should be enough to get him out. Maybe not against a character like Marth with an extremely fast dashing speed (even then he should be fine, thanks to marth having to land first, and the EDC moving extremely fast), but against most he will get out unharmed.

Very slightly more distance makes up for 28 frames of landing lag? For the EDC to be unpunishable in a situation where it wouldn't have been punished on start-up, it would be very obvious that someone was using EDC, therefore you could just call over a judge.

You obviously don't realize how fast you move in DC. Punishing it is unrealistic. What happens when I call the TO? He won't be able to do anything about it if theres no footage.

It isn't THAT fast, especially not as a cross-up. According to your scenario, MKs at the ledge, you're not in the middle of the stage but you're at the side of the stage, facing the MK. He DCs away (you somehow can't punish it despite having fast attacks like dolphin slash, f-air, dancing blade) and he goes to the middle. You turn around and d-tilt, or d-smash, or dancing blade, or shuttle loop, or anything. It's punishable on reaction when you see him there.

If you're on a stage that isn't FD or PS1, you're going to be able to punish it. And if it is one of those and he goes from the ledge to the middle of the stage, it's obvious to see that it was an EDC.

Unless a witness is watching for it, chances are he isn't so into the match that he'd actually be 100% sure on either side. And even if he is watching closely, not everyone will always be able to make the right call. It can be pretty close sometimes. And theres possible bias from witnesses.

Witnesses don't only watch matches to see if someone does something illegal. They might want to watch a match because their friend's playing, or it's a good match, etc. It's not improbable to suggest that they'd realize the difference between EDC and DC. If you even want to use EDC to the point where it gives you a benefit, you're going to be doing more than one c-stick tap up, and it's going to be more obvious.

Bias can go either way.

The fact that you think this would solve anything is laughable. Who the hell is gonna be like "hmm, i guess it is closer to the EDC distance. Ok I cheated." They'll deny that it went that far in game.

It's a last resort-ish thing if people don't realize that DC doesn't go that far. Pause when he comes out of EDC in the game when it's obvious, go to a different set-up, and demonstrate that regular DC doesn't go that far.

Replays/witnesses/calling over a T.O. all come before this, but it is an option.

He can also warp to the ledge from anywhere on stage. Or if he is pressured he can reset to neutral. MK has a much easier time than all other characters getting into an advantageous stage from neutral, so being able to reset to neutral at will is amazing.



If you have a TO watching for it, then it's no problem. Otherwise, it is.

If you warp from the ledge to ANYWHERE on the stage, again, it's obvious what's an EDC and what isn't.

If he's pressured he can reset to neutral? Who can't punish 13 frames or 28 frames of cooldown? By that logic, as aforementioned, rolls are amazing and everyone should roll roll roll because you're invincible!1

 

[Deleted member]

Sadly yes. People got butthurt over TO joe stalling ONCE.



Heck, most people didnt even WANT to have a discussion. They just wanted to ban him cause their PR has so many MKs, which is kinda ******** because its not forced overcentralization.

Don't be an idiot. We've been supplying tons of legitimate arguments for the Ontario ban of Meta Knight.

 

[thrillagorilla]

EDC has not been debunked.
The anti-ban have been out here speaking about "theory is crap" and "it's nothing more than hypothesis."

So I provide this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8002246&postcount=5224

And apparently, I'm told
1) this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8002303&postcount=5234,
2) this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8002395&postcount=5243,
3) this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8002480&postcount=5248,
4) and this: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8002615&postcount=5252

1) To this point, I already said that I do not agree with it at all. You have NO IDEA where the regular DC would've ended up. You can't prove that you know where the regular DC would end up, you're just theorizing, especially since the regular DC also has varying distances!
2) To this point, you're theorizing that doing attacks that still have a risk known as a hurtbox are better than doing an attack that allows you to travel stages without a hurtbox.... can I laugh?
3) To this point, LOL. I have nothing to back up what? That there is no hurtbox? And now you wanna say that I don't know about what Dojo was thinking when this happened? Does what Dojo felt when it happened even matter? Even if he said, "it was a good move, no johns," doesn't mean it's not a broken move.
4) To this point, you can't be serious. Like I said, anti-ban says, no theory plz, and yet what is this? Theory. You don't have the frame data for DC, but you can just say that it has more than 11 frames of startup (the number of frames nado takes to startup, which has the longest startup of the possible options in that situation)? You also say that all you have to do is keep track of your opponent... easier said than done considering the fact that no matter how the camera may track it, you can't see your opponent. Also, staying in the EDC for longer than 3 seconds isn't the issue here. I'm not talking about stalling, I'm talking about being unable to hit what you can't see.

LOL @ all this theory the anti-ban side provided. Well, f*ck theory then, I challenge you to try out the EDC. Find someone who is competent enough to play Brawl, show them how to EDC if they don't know how to do it already, and play a couple serious matches with it. Be MK with EDC going up against a charater of choice and go against MK with EDC with a character of choice.

Have fun with that. You wanna talk about hard evidence? Try EDC yourself then, because you've done nothing but provided theory. Couple of things I want you to get about EDC:

1) Get how you don't have to move. (lol mindgames)
2) Get a good feel for how much startup and cooldown this move has.
3) Get at how you fast you can infact do something after this move is done, specifically nado, SL, and another EDC.

Once you try the move yourself, you'll better understand it rather than theorize about how it doesn't help MK.

Have a nice weekend, I'm done with this for now, and I'm practically convinced now.

MarKO, this is me talking from the EXPERIENCE OF DEALING WITH IT BECAUSE I HAVE. I said that before. t1mmy has used it on me while playing. I don't care if you think it is hard to keep track. It can be done, so stop your *** **** ****** ******* bellyaching. As for your attempts to tell me that there is no way to tell if the move was used or not, let me remind you that any extension at all forces Metaknight to stay in the move LONGER. Its traceable with the timer, which is on in EVERY MATCH. You don't even need to keep track of the distance, just the time spent in the move. Also, as Avarice has clearly stated multiple times, the move in general is BANNED. If you aren't going to even read what I or others have said, then don't post about it. If you don't have any personal experience against it, don't post about it. DON'T THEORY-CRAFT. Unless it invariably destroys MUs, it doesn't matter anyways because STALLING IS BANNED and if the move (when in the event it is legal) lasts for more than a few seconds, the user can be called for stalling due to the purpose of movement already being fulfilled (AKA call a TO over to watch the rest of the match). The move is situational at best if you know what you are doing. If you want to test it out, by all means. No one is stopping you.

Also, to the incessant use of theory crafting being done on the pro-ban side, I will say this again. NO RULE IS ENFORCEABLE IN TOURNEY ACCORDING TO YOUR THEORIES. The only way things get reported in matches is by a player. There will not always be people watching your matches. Example: If someone goes over the edge grab limit, and then reaches over and presses the start button on their opponent's controller and eliminates the results screen, there is nothing but the word of either player. In the event that a character is about to be hit with a KO move and the player pauses the game and buffers a dodge to avoid it, then proceeds to use their own KO move due to the induced lag, there is no record of the pause. The same goes for unplugging the opponent's controller, or hitting them irl. Its player's word against player's word. because there can't be someone watching all the time, its all possible right? None of this proves anything, which is why there is a burden of PROOF. Get it, present it, and then we have a discussion. Until then all we are doing is yelling at each other senselessly.

Edit: Thank you for the frame data, hotgarbage. Sorry I couldn't find it earlier.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

MarKO, this is me talking from the EXPERIENCE OF DEALING WITH IT BECAUSE I HAVE. I said that before. t1mmy has used it on me while playing. I don't care if you think it is hard to keep track. It can be done, so stop your *** **** ****** ******* bellyaching. As for your attempts to tell me that there is no way to tell if the move was used or not, let me remind you that any extension at all forces Metaknight to stay in the move LONGER. Its traceable with the timer, which is on in EVERY MATCH. You don't even need to keep track of the distance, just the time spent in the move. Also, as Avarice has clearly stated multiple times, the move in general is BANNED. If you aren't going to even read what I or others have said, then don't post about it. If you don't have any personal experience against it, don't post about it. DON'T THEORY-CRAFT. Unless it invariably destroys MUs, it doesn't matter anyways because STALLING IS BANNED and if the move (when in the event it is legal) lasts for more than a few seconds, the user can be called for stalling due to the purpose of movement already being fulfilled (AKA call a TO over to watch the rest of the match). The move is situational at best if you know what you are doing. If you want to test it out, by all means. No one is stopping you.

Also, to the incessant use of theory crafting being done on the pro-ban side, I will say this again. NO RULE IS ENFORCEABLE IN TOURNEY ACCORDING TO YOUR THEORIES. The only way things get reported in matches is by a player. There will not always be people watching your matches. Example: If someone goes over the edge grab limit, and then reaches over and presses the start button on their opponent's controller and eliminates the results screen, there is nothing but the word of either player. In the event that a character is about to be hit with a KO move and the player pauses the game and buffers a dodge to avoid it, then proceeds to use their own KO move due to the induced lag, there is no record of the pause. The same goes for unplugging the opponent's controller, or hitting them irl. Its player's word against player's word. because there can't be someone watching all the time, its all possible right? None of this proves anything, which is why there is a burden of PROOF. Get it, present it, and then we have a discussion. Until then all we are doing is yelling at each other senselessly.

Edit: Thank you for the frame data, hotgarbage. Sorry I couldn't find it earlier.

What thrilla said.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

The only way to get rid of EDC is to ban MK's cape. Banning a move means that you've banned something for MK and only MK. So why not go further and ban MK altogether?

lol, none of this makes any sense at all.


It's really easy to ban EDC without banning cape, wtf are you even talking about? Then you jump to like 3 more random conclusions with no explanation or reason. WEEEEEEEE.

 

[Nicole]

lol, none of this makes any sense at all.


It's really easy to ban EDC without banning cape, wtf are you even talking about? Then you jump to like 3 more random conclusions with no explanation or reason. WEEEEEEEE.

It's not at all easy to ban EDC. You'd have to actually WATCH the MK player to make sure he wasn't doing the additional inputs to extend the cape. Or memorize the duration of the standard cape. Even then, you'd have to call the guy out and he could easily deny it; there's no way a tourney official could have seen it. The only way to PROVE it would be to record the match and watch it again, frame by frame, but that is PRETTY impractical. So if EDC is to be banned it would not be enforceable. Banning the cape altogether would be. Of course, it doesn't follow from this that MK MUST be banned as well, but if we want EDC gone then cape has to go as well.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Perhaps if Metaknight isn't banned, which I hope he is, the Dimensional Cape is.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Thanks for answering the questions, but do you think MK would fall that far behind? MK isn't all that hard to play when it comes down to it. MK is just EDC and your basic spacing/dodging/ knowledge of the matchup, there isn't difficult things to learn with him like Pikas Quick attack to Nair or stuff like that, so he couldn't fall THAT far behind, could he?

No and that's what I explained in one of my earlier posts. Because he's the best character AND has the lowest learning curve of the cast, it is extremelly unlikely that he'd remain far behind for long if he were temp banned for, say, a month. Anyways, from what we've seen in the past, Metaknight banned tournaments have had higher attendance on average and, of course, greater diversity of characters that actually place so we basically already know the results of a temp ban without actually having to go through with it which kind of confuses me to why this is still an issue. Actually, I do know why; it's because we're going by competitive standards and treating Brawl like every other fighting game. As said in a previous post, Brawl is closer to the likes of Mario Kart than Melee when it comes to "competitiveness" so I don't think it's right for us to give it the same standards that we would for games that were pretty much made from the ground up for fighting game enthusiasts like Street Fighter or Guilty Gear.

 

[Sasha]

It's not at all easy to ban EDC. You'd have to actually WATCH the MK player to make sure he wasn't doing the additional inputs to extend the cape. Or memorize the duration of the standard cape. Even then, you'd have to call the guy out and he could easily deny it; there's no way a tourney official could have seen it. The only way to PROVE it would be to record the match and watch it again, frame by frame, but that is PRETTY impractical. So if EDC is to be banned it would not be enforceable. Banning the cape altogether would be. Of course, it doesn't follow from this that MK MUST be banned as well, but if we want EDC gone then cape has to go as well.

I dunno about you, but I definitely know the exact duration of most moves in brawl. "Standard cape" is pretty easy. And possible solution: have a TO (hopefully there's more than one...) watch any match with an MK in it from brackets on up. Pools too actually, assuming there's a pool captain.

 

[Nicole]

I dunno about you, but I definitely know the exact duration of most moves in brawl. "Standard cape" is pretty easy. And possible solution: have a TO (hopefully there's more than one...) watch any match with an MK in it from brackets on up. Pools too actually, assuming there's a pool captain.

TOs do NOT have time to just sit there and watch every match with an MK in it.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Just the fact that we have to constantly bicker about rules that keep MK in check says a lot!

By the way, just because something is banned doesn't make it less broken, LOL. You can ban stalling and IDC and EDC and planking and whatever else you want, they're still broken and you're still jumping through hoops to make a broken character work.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Just the fact that we have to constantly bicker about rules that keep MK in check says a lot!

that they love beating the dead horse?

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I dunno about you, but I definitely know the exact duration of most moves in brawl. "Standard cape" is pretty easy. And possible solution: have a TO (hopefully there's more than one...) watch any match with an MK in it from brackets on up. Pools too actually, assuming there's a pool captain.

Thank you.


It is really, really, really easy to see when someone is extending the duration of the cape. It's also not hard to find someone to watch the match if you are that worried that your opponent is a rule-breaking douche. It doesn't have to be a TO unless the offender is accused or known to do it often.

 

[Sovereign]

No and that's what I explained in one of my earlier posts. Because he's the best character AND has the lowest learning curve of the cast, it is extremelly unlikely that he'd remain far behind for long if he were temp banned for, say, a month. Anyways, from what we've seen in the past, Metaknight banned tournaments have had higher attendance on average and, of course, greater diversity of characters that actually place so we basically already know the results of a temp ban without actually having to go through with it which kind of confuses me to why this is still an issue. Actually, I do know why; it's because we're going by competitive standards and treating Brawl like every other fighting game. As said in a previous post, Brawl is closer to the likes of Mario Kart than Melee when it comes to "competitiveness" so I don't think it's right for us to give it the same standards that we would for games that were pretty much made from the ground up for fighting game enthusiasts like Street Fighter or Guilty Gear.

Some of the best characters in many games have low learning curves.

i.e. - Sagat

 

[Kamikaze*]

Just the fact that we have to constantly bicker about rules that keep MK in check says a lot!

By the way, just because something is banned doesn't make it less broken, LOL. You can ban stalling and IDC and EDC and planking and whatever else you want, they're still broken and you're still jumping through hoops to make a broken character work.

Yeah, we should totally make all the practice that the MK mains did go to waste because of a stupid technique. >_>

 

[cooper911]

Ban Meta Knight!!

 

[JUDGE]

wow i missed just 9 hours and the thread grows up from 284 to 356 lol^^

 

[Red Arremer]

By the way, just because something is banned doesn't make it less broken, LOL. You can ban stalling and IDC and EDC and planking and whatever else you want, they're still broken and you're still jumping through hoops to make a broken character work.

You are aware of the fact that Planking is not only performable by Meta Knight, and that the best stallers actually aren't Meta Knight, right? :3

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah, we should totally make all the practice that the MK mains did go to waste because of a stupid technique. >_>

Sure, because MK's planking abilities won't (or haven't) turned the game upside down on their own and aren't nearly impossible to regulate. And sure, the rumored proposition (25 ledge grabs instead of 50) won't break characters that use ledges for defensive purposes but don't plank. Sure, let's decrease the viability of Pit and several other characters just to stop MK players from planking.

I have no sympathy. Practice another character.

You are aware of the fact that Planking is not only performable by Meta Knight, and that the best stallers actually aren't Meta Knight, right? :3

MK is the best planker by a wide margin and easily the best at air stalling. Wario is perhaps comparable at the latter, but no one planks as well as MK. That isn't to say no one else can do it, but MK is almost unbeatable because of his nair alone.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

he's the best character AND has the lowest learning curve of the cast,

Some of the best characters in many games have low learning curves.

i.e. - Sagat

This. Furthermore, MK is NOT the lowest learning curve of the cast. That's a really lawl-worthy statement.

Game and Watch, anyone?

 

[Red Arremer]

MK is the best planker and easily the best at air stalling. Wario is perhaps comparable at the latter, but no one planks as well as MK. That isn't to say no one else can do it, but MK is almost unbeatable because of his nair alone.

Meta Knight might be the best planker, but there are others too, so saying it got banned just because of Meta Knight is a lie. Furthermore, there is not such a thing as airstalling. There is only aircamping, and that's a legitimate strategy. Saying it's banned is a lie.

I was referring to Infinites on walls (like Dedede has, and I think Peach), and Sonic's stage stalling. Ever saw that? He goes under the main platform of a stage and repeatedly uses Homing Attack. You can't do SH*T. Hence Stalling has been banned and Infinites have been limited to 300%.

Meta Knight isn't the only character that has broken tactics, so stop spitting lies.

 

[swordgard]

Don't be an idiot. We've been supplying tons of legitimate arguments for the Ontario ban of Meta Knight.

Which hype answered and proved you wrong but you immediately shrugged it off.


Your problem with MK is a bandwagon effect, not forced overcentralization. Get over it. If it was forced, nor me nor percon nor holy would get so high at your tourneys

 

[JUDGE]

Some of the best characters in many games have low learning curves.

i.e. - Sagat

that is not true at all....
mk has not SUCh a low lurning curve

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Meta Knight might be the best planker, but there are others too, so saying it got banned just because of Meta Knight is a lie. Furthermore, there is not such a thing as airstalling. There is only aircamping, and that's a legitimate strategy. Saying it's banned is a lie.

I was referring to Infinites on walls (like Dedede has, and I think Peach), and Sonic's stage stalling. Ever saw that? He goes under the main platform of a stage and repeatedly uses Homing Attack. You can't do SH*T. Hence Stalling has been banned and Infinites have been limited to 300%.

Meta Knight isn't the only character that has broken tactics, so stop spitting lies.

It's blatantly disingenuous to claim that MK isn't far and away the most effective at any and all of these tactics and that he has bar far the easiest time doing it. Any idiot can pick up MK, do 30% and stall the clock for 8 minutes. It has been done and will continue to be done.

Planking is an MK technique that other characters can kind of use and air camping is broken. Don't be a fool.

This. Furthermore, MK is NOT the lowest learning curve of the cast. That's a really lawl-worthy statement.

Game and Watch, anyone?

Stop comparing Brawl to other fighting games as though what they did in SF4 or any other game should be the final word. I don't care what they did in SF4.

 

[Red Arremer]

words

And saying that these things have been banned just because of Meta Knight is a lie.

 

[swordgard]

It's blatantly disingenuous to claim that MK isn't far and away the most effective at any and all of these tactics and that he has bar far the easiest time doing it. Any idiot can pick up MK, do 30% and stall the clock for 8 minutes. It has been done and will continue to be done.

Planking is an MK technique that other characters can kind of use and air camping is broken. Don't be a fool.
Stop comparing Brawl to other fighting games as though what they did in SF4 or any other game should be the final word. I don't care what they did in SF4.

Im surprised i dont see these idiots camping the clock for 8 minutes. I only see plank whos got great spacing, and dojo did it once.


Bring me evidence of this happening.

 

[OFY]

Meta Knight might be the best planker, but there are others too, so saying it got banned just because of Meta Knight is a lie. Furthermore, there is not such a thing as airstalling. There is only aircamping, and that's a legitimate strategy. Saying it's banned is a lie.

I was referring to Infinites on walls (like Dedede has, and I think Peach), and Sonic's stage stalling. Ever saw that? He goes under the main platform of a stage and repeatedly uses Homing Attack. You can't do SH*T. Hence Stalling has been banned and Infinites have been limited to 300%.

Meta Knight isn't the only character that has broken tactics, so stop spitting lies.

Are you kidding me on the Sonic stalling. The opponent can control the Sonic stalling by just moving left and right, even if it is considered stalling people don't use it unless they make an error and have to use it to recover because it isn't practical otherwise.

Also infinites on walls are legal with the current stage ruleset. Hence why you see metaknights dtilt locking on Delfino, DDD chaingrab in PS1 etc.

 

[Red Arremer]

Also infinites on walls are legal with the current stage ruleset. Hence why you see metaknights dtilt locking on Delfino, DDD chaingrab in PS1 etc.

That's because these wall-locks are temporary. Just like several characters' Jab or Tilt Locks.

Why do you think walk-off stages and stages with constant walls have been completely banned? Right.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

And saying that these things have been banned just because of Meta Knight is a lie.

No it isn't.

 

[swordgard]

Are you kidding me on the Sonic stalling. The opponent can control the Sonic stalling by just moving left and right, even if it is considered stalling people don't use it unless they make an error and have to use it to recover because it isn't practical otherwise.

Also infinites on walls are legal with the current stage ruleset. Hence why you see metaknights dtilt locking on Delfino, DDD chaingrab in PS1 etc.

SDI out of dtilts lock says hi.

 

[Red Arremer]

No it isn't.

Yes. Yes it is.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yes. Yes it is.

No. No, it isn't.

As though these MK techniques were absolutely fine until people found other characters could do them to a fraction of the affect at best. Right.

 

[JUDGE]

SDI out of dtilts lock says hi.

but you can't DI out of DDD's chaingrab............

 

[Masmasher@]

I have no sympathy. Practice another character.
.

I have no sympathy. Learn the matchup. Stop whining..
Look I can do it too.

 

[Red Arremer]

No. No, it isn't.

I repeat, there are other characters who are able to ledgestall. It doesn't matter who's the best of them, the technique would've been banned if Ganondorf would've been the best ledgestaller and/or Meta Knight wouldn't have it at all.

Several characters are able to abuse the ledge and draw out the timer because of abusing the invincibility frames of the ledgegrab.
Whether or not Meta Knight is doing this best or worst doesn't matter, since if Meta Knight wouldn't have it, others would have it too.
Furthermore, it doesn't matter if Meta Knight's or Game and Watch's or whomever else's ledgestall is a little easier to do.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I have no sympathy. Learn the matchup stop acting like a scrub..
Look I can do it too.

Oh, hey, it's the "scrub" word again. I guess that means I'm just a baby and lose! Pity, that.

Oh, wait. Stop name-calling (which is really all the anti-ban argument has been to this point) and get a real argument.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I repeat, there are other characters who are able to ledgestall. It doesn't matter who's the best of them, the technique would've been banned if Ganondorf would've been the best ledgestaller and/or Meta Knight wouldn't have it at all.

That's just peachy, except that Ganondorf isn't the best ledgestaller and MK is. Your hypothetical anecdote means nothing.

Several characters are able to abuse the ledge and draw out the timer because of abusing the invincibility frames of the ledgegrab.
Whether or not Meta Knight is doing this best or worst doesn't matter, since if Meta Knight wouldn't have it, others would have it too.
Furthermore, it doesn't matter if Meta Knight's or Game and Watch's or whomever else's ledgestall is a little easier to do.

Welp, MK does have it, so

BTW, "easier to do" isn't what I said, stop twisting my words. Point is that MK's is virtually uncounterable and any other character who can plank can do it badly or ineffectually at best. I guess maybe Bowser can do it pretty well against some characters. I beg you, please mockingly argue that we should "BAN BOWSER TOO LOL?"

 

[OFY]

I repeat, there are other characters who are able to ledgestall. It doesn't matter who's the best of them, the technique would've been banned if Ganondorf would've been the best ledgestaller and/or Meta Knight wouldn't have it at all.

Several characters are able to abuse the ledge and draw out the timer because of abusing the invincibility frames of the ledgegrab.
Whether or not Meta Knight is doing this best or worst doesn't matter, since if Meta Knight wouldn't have it, others would have it too.
Furthermore, it doesn't matter if Meta Knight's or Game and Watch's or whomever else's ledgestall is a little easier to do.

Do you have any videos of other characters planking in tournament play to the extent that metaknight already has displayed?

 

[ShinoBee]

I'd really love to know if anyone is part of/done actual research on other fighting game scenes BESIDES ****ing Street Fighter or Soul Calibur, because it seems like most smashers don't know that there are other fighting games out there besides those two. I'm not gonna lie, but just because you mush buttons and played the SF games doesn't mean your words are truth. Hell, it's not even the most played/liked fighter in Japan at the current moment.

If you:
-Haven't even tried a doujin fighter and assume it's a silly animu game like Guilty Gear (which it ISN'T).
-Think Sagat should be banned.
-Call Carl a ****ty character.
-Believe Smash is more technical than KOF and Virtua Fighter combined.
-Believe that just because you played a lot of SF games means you could tell someone off instantly.

Then don't even bother ****ing replying.

Also Eddie and Third Strike Chun Li. Let's see if someone gets it.