Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[Kimidori]

Yes I have. What are your reasons that he should stay banned?

 

[Exceladon City]

My feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex goes like this:

People are talking about how we should remove all the stages except for three to focus on our fundamentals in 1v1 combat, and try to lose as much focus on gimmicky stages as possible. I don't believe in this, but I will use that same justification of removing critical components of the game to strengthen my position on banning MK.

I feel like we should remove Metaknight from our game so we can focus on other parts of the game, like the rest of the cast as well as the rest of the stages. I know I may sound like a scrub because I want to remove Metaknight from the game when he "doesn't deserve" to be banned, but I'm choosing to ignore whether he deserves to be banned or not because I think removing him is the best approach to better ourselves, the community, and our ruleset.

I hope you have your flame retardant ready...

 

[SmashChu]

M2k played like balls.

Then when is he gonna play good.

Did you not even read my post?

Not like you said anything. You said "No, that's not a reason," and that's about it. Not very meaningful. You could at least have given another reason.

 

[Kuro~]

he does. It's called infractions

Don't flame. Be civil.
(sarcasm isn't really flaming though[generally])

@smashchu

Dunno. You should ask him when he plans on practicing this game again.

And if you can watch that match and legitimately say that he was playing well then...idk what to say to you tbh.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Let's all ignore that the japanese style rule set we would use will have made like 4 concessions especially for one character:

LGL
Anti-scrooging
ICD
stage bans

I mean, you ahve to live on some other planet if you can't acknowledge there's something wrong with MK's design. really?

Why can't you just admit that you know he's broken but believe the game is more fun with all of his broken qualities mitigated by heavy regulations?

 

[Conviction]

Aiyyo guys, just ignore Smashchu he's wandered aimlessly out of the Smash4 topic.

 

[Kimidori]

Let's all ignore that the japanese style rule set we would use will have made like 4 concessions especially for one character:

LGL
Anti-scrooging
ICD
stage bans

I mean, you ahve to live on some other planet if you can't acknowledge there's something wrong with MK's design. really?

Why can't you just admit that you know he's broken but believe the game is more fun with all of his broken qualities mitigated by heavy regulations?

The LGL doesn't have to be there. Somebody just ended up abusing the hell out of it so they made it. And it doesn't have to be so low, either.

The stage bans aren't just for Meta Knight, it is to increase how far our metagame can go. Also to control the fact that stages won't interfere with the win. And if they do, only in the slightest.

 

[Thino]

Let's all ignore that the japanese style rule set we would use will have made like 4 concessions especially for one character:

LGL
Anti-scrooging
ICD
stage bans

I mean, you ahve to live on some other planet if you can't acknowledge there's something wrong with MK's design. really?

Why can't you just admit that you know he's broken but believe the game is more fun with all of his broken qualities mitigated by heavy regulations?

Wait a character that has tools that allow him/her to stall not only have something wrong with their design but is also broken now?

Not sure if design is what you really meant here, since obviously MK has not be designed taking in account a ruleset a future competitive community will have, so I'm not really sure what you mean by that.

I suppose a character's regulations reach the level of "heavy therefore broken" when there are 3 of them? because going only by the logic that a character is broken because of stalling technique, Melee Peach and Melee Jiggs would be considered broken as well.

 

[Exceladon City]

Melee Jiggs would be considered broken as well.

tho

 

[SmashChu]

@smashchu

Dunno. You should ask him when he plans on practicing this game again.

And if you can watch that match and legitimately say that he was playing well then...idk what to say to you tbh.

I'm pointing it out that it's an excuse and that's all. Ocean won. You can say he played bad all day to mask the fact. Heck, he lost to a character who is suppose to be way weaker then him. Heck, the only time he won was a time out. He straight up got out played.

Basically, I don't like "X player played bad." I don't think it cuts it.

 

[Strong Badam]

really don't see the argument for "we have to ban stages because of MK!" when you do the same **** for walk-offs w/ DDD

 

[Kuro~]

I'm pointing it out that it's an excuse and that's all. Ocean won. You can say he played bad all day to mask the fact. Heck, he lost to a character who is suppose to be way weaker then him. Heck, the only time he won was a time out. He straight up got out played.

Basically, I don't like "X player played bad." I don't think it cuts it.

It most certainly does. M2k is infamous for losing matchups not named mk. Even snake seemed foreign to him for a while.
snake
Diddy
Olimar
Sonic
dedede
and now rob.

It's not a john. I'm simply stating facts. If you can NOT see in that video the BLATANT mistakes then you shouldn't even be playing this game. All i'm saying is the way m2k was playing it's no surprise ocean won. It was hype as hell. I was there cheering on ocean the whole time. But at the same time i recognize how terrible he was playing that mu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek1ZjOmjAXM again i cite this example.

Obviously all dedede's aren't trying hard enough and need to get better.Right?
Wrong. It's one of countless examples of m2k doing bad when he really shouldn't...

One reason people should not cite m2k so much...


Oh ya i'm not trying to dislodge any arguments here either...just saying citing m2k vs ocean is terrible in itself...

Citing otori or nietono would be much much more valid if anything.

 

[John12346]

Pretty sure walkoffs are banned for walkoff camping...

Maybe Dedede too, but I'm pretty sure the predominant reason was walkoffs...

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Omg I agree with Smashchu for once!

Kind of.

Except for the earlier Brawl/Melee comparison.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Luco]

Sorto the reason that happened is because in the US we rely on powerful tactics and characters to achieve success. So everyone flocks to powerful characters without focusing as much as they should on personal improvement. I dont think thats just the brawl/smash community either. In Japan they focus on their skill as players and being able to win on their personal skill. Thats why I think a temp ban could be good, and hopefully try to shift that mentality.

Mister Eric I still remember your funny post in the ban annoucement thread, lol. You should make one about Ocean.

Yeah, that happens a little bit over here in Australia, except I tend to see more Falcos and Marths more than anything else, with the occasional snake thrown in there. I main Lucas and try to get better with him because.... Well, yeah.

 

[Cassio]

For the record my official stance is that both sorts of tournaments should be run. But since the URC is committed to 100% integration of their horrid ruleset that few people on either side agree with, forced to choose between MK and no-MK Im throwing my weight behind MK until people realize how bad the URC is.

 

[Kuro~]

I highly disagree. I'd rather it be mk legal than split between the two.

 

[Cassio]

Multiple rulesets has never been an issue before. Its more about letting people use the ruleset they want locally than a divide on just one issue.

 

[Kuro~]

The largest difference between them however, was stages.

 

[Cassio]

Id say lgls can make a big difference as well. Suicide rules and infinites too. If the tournaments arent large scale I dont think its that big a deal.

Part of it too is that the way the way the URC is constructed atm they make really bad decisions with confirmation bias and bad information.

 

[Kuro~]

I can certainly agree on the lgl portion being pretty large as well(the others meh not so much). However, nowadays it is quite universal(even b4 urc) that lgl be instated.

@last sentence

Ehhhh...you could only really make a legitimate argument for the mk ban situation. Everything else was fine.

 

[Kimidori]

Id say lgls can make a big difference as well. Suicide rules and infinites too. If the tournaments arent large scale I dont think its that big a deal.

Part of it too is that the way the way the URC is constructed atm they make really bad decisions with confirmation bias and bad information.

True story is true. Not one of the URC members is a Meta Knight user, and yet they host an inside ONLY THEM vote on his banning? That's just lame.

 

[Strong Badam]

DeLux is my homie tho.

 

[Steam]

True story is true. Not one of the URC members is a Meta Knight user, and yet they host an inside ONLY THEM vote on his banning? That's just lame.

Well they are the TOs. You can get into the URC by being a prominent TO.

Also the unity ruleset is perfect right now IMHO.

 

[Cassio]

Ehhhh...you could only really make a legitimate argument for the mk ban situation. Everything else was fine.

This is only because there wasnt any hard evidence we could be critical of them for on other issues. Its still the same people making the decisions, if they cant do the MK decision right how are they capable of making choices they spent less time on? They also have one of the lowest entry requirements to gain membership into. Even the debate hall puts people through more scrutiny than the URC, lol.

SB yeah theres a few good members, and no ones perfect.

 

[Strong Badam]

you're the worst Vee

 

[Orion*]

IMO Mk players need to get better. If you're even being hit or attacking, you're doing it wrong

i dont really care if this is a troll or not but the fact that someone agreed with you on this disturbs the hell out of me

@BAM see I thought that it was generally excepted that more diversity in stages is better and that we should only remove stages that are inherently a problem or uncompetative/don't want to test what we want to test in smash.

well it depends on what your standards are
if i think stages give any kind of advantage without a player having to work for it then... well yeah to me that's bad.

Even people who switch to full mk mains don't generally do well. Show me one person who switched to a mk main and suddenly started doing significantly better/placing at nationals with mk? The only people I can think of that picked up mk and have done well with him were already some of the best players in the nation.

Also, banning mk to get other characters to catch up is backwards logic. It will only hinder other characters because they won't be getting one of the most important match-up experience, and it will hinder our MKs because they won't be playing him. The same people will be making the money, because they are the best players. It's ONLY the mentality that we need to change to improve our metagame.

A lot of this comes from the negative stigma associated with brawl. People complain about hating the game yet they still play it. They don't really hate it or they wouldn't be playing it, that's just stupid. It's just ingrained into some peoples minds that the game is bad and only minimal effort should be put in to get better at it or that gay strategies are the best way to go. If people weren't as ashamed to enjoy the game you would probably see a lot more effort put into it. Currently most players hardly play except for at tournaments.

In 2008 when the game first came out I would play for HOURS I mean like 5-7 hours a day by myself or on wifi. I discovered so many things, practiced so many characters, and just kept refining my skills because I wanted to be the BEST. And you know what? It worked. I won a LOT of tournaments in 2008, placed top 5 in like every tournament I entered for a year, and constantly improved to beat my rivals. Eventually, I just took my skill for granted(not attesting to all the practice I put in) and fell off. Since then I have never put in that level of determination to be the best because it seems like such a far shot. Why put so much effort into something that isn't likely to happen?

Currently I don't have the time or resources to put in that effort, nor the interest. For the people who do however, do it because it's your passion. So many people try to take the easy way out without even knowing about it. If you REALLY put in the work you will at LEAST be able to win regionals. If you have talent that's how you become a top player. It's the mentality and determination of players that has shaped our metagame, not the characters. It's very possible to change.

sadly the idea of working for something we want seems to be also falling on deaf ears. sad

CONEY ALMOST 3 STOCKED M2K A WHILE BACK!! DEDEDE'S OBVIOUSLY JUST NEED TO GET BETTER.

...they actually do tho >_>

but real talk i also think that winning a set is very different from a game.

Pretty sure walkoffs are banned for walkoff camping...

Maybe Dedede too, but I'm pretty sure the predominant reason was walkoffs...

you weren't there in 08 homie
dont state ish
it was def. DDD
that **** is gay

Well they are the TOs. You can get into the URC by being a prominent TO.

Also the unity ruleset is perfect right now IMHO.

you can also stop sucking *** by practicing
but i guess most people are to lazy to do that to

 

[Kuro~]

This is only because there wasnt any hard evidence we could be critical of them for on other issues. Its still the same people making the decisions, if they cant do the MK decision right how are they capable of making less important choices? They also have one of the lowest entry requirements to gain membership into. Even the debate hall puts people through more scrutiny than the URC, lol.

SB yeah theres a few good members, and no ones perfect.

Eh i highly disagree. As the only thing i disagree about with mk ban situation was them not releasing in exactness the extra data(read: everything not johns) to the public as well as not keeping a log of the conversations.

That's definitely a terrible assumption as well. They've been doing a great job regarding stages, lgl, and the like imho.




People need to stop saying oh you guys don't practice. Do NOT unless you know the individual assume they don't put in work JUST because of their opinions. That's a terrible thing to do and quite disrespectful to people that put it in mad training and work yet are pro ban.

 

[Steam]

you can also stop sucking *** by practicing
but i guess most people are to lazy to do that to

I'm not one of the ones freaking out that we need to best the japanese though.

Besides, no one has played me cuz I'm from Colorado. I could actually be supertrela.

 

[Cassio]

Eh i highly disagree. As the only thing i disagree about with mk ban situation was them not releasing in exactness the extra data(read: everything not johns) to the public as well as not keeping a log of the conversations.

That's definitely a terrible assumption as well. They've been doing a great job regarding stages, lgl, and the like imho.

How would you anyone know theyve done a decent job with other rules? The only one we have any information on is the MK ban and they did a pretty terrible job handling that based on whats released, so I dont know where the faith in their ability to make correct decisions is at.

 

[Thino]

People need to stop saying oh you guys don't practice. Do NOT unless you know the individual assume they don't put in work JUST because of their opinions. That's a terrible thing to do and quite disrespectful to people that put it in mad training and work yet are pro ban.

disrespect only works one way?

What about the respect of people that dedicated up to 4 years into learning a character to find their effort crushed just because of the same "opinions"

What do you tell those people? "Oh you can switch characters", right?

 

[Conviction]

disrespect only works one way?

What about the respect of people that dedicated up to 4 years into learning a character to find their effort crushed just because of the same "opinions"

What do you tell those people? "Oh you can switch characters", right?

Applies to characters ***** by MK

 

[Kimidori]

Thino makes a damn good point.

 

[Luco]

That IS a good point. I know i would be devastated if I had to leave Lucas/Ness. they're playstyles match my playing style and it just feels so smooth playing them. I guess thats how the MK's feel. Hmm... I dunno, I guess i'll personally miss MK, just because. He'll be that char that's 'off limits.' I understand what people mean when they talk about how broken he is, it's just I can't seem to get my head around the ban. Urg, i'm so indecisive, aren't I? :-P

 

[Strong Badam]

Besides, no one has played me cuz I'm from Colorado. I could actually be supertrela.

I have never laughed so hard in my life

 

[Kimidori]

That IS a good point. I know i would be devastated if I had to leave Lucas/Ness. they're playstyles match my playing style and it just feels so smooth playing them. I guess thats how the MK's feel. Hmm... I dunno, I guess i'll personally miss MK, just because. He'll be that char that's 'off limits.' I understand what people mean when they talk about how broken he is, it's just I can't seem to get my head around the ban. Urg, i'm so indecisive, aren't I? :-P

Well, just take a look at the Japanese players. They are better than us (they have proved so) both with MK and without MK. They have taken MK to a whole new level than we have, and yet their players are still easily able to deal with MK (hence why their best players as determined by them are Kyuubi and Nietono, Kyuubi maining IC's and Nietono maining Olimar). If they can deal with MK when he's better than we have him, how do they do it? Their stages. They only have 3. SV, FD, and BF. This makes it so instead of winning by counterpicks (which Americans take advantage of), they win by player skill, and are even able to come here and beat us with the counterpicks we made.

Again I come to this: America should focus on modifying the stages, not the character selection. In all honesty, Meta Knight is not broken at all. It's the stages that make him broken. Sure he will still be the best in the game, but without the stages, he won't be as good as he is. Also, the LGL lowering for only him is ridiculous. And before anyone brings it up, this type of modification is NOT JUST FOR META KNIGHT, but it will improve the skill of all characters as a whole. Sure counterpicks are cool, but when they have such an effect on the outcome of the game where one character can have a huge advantage over another is just stupid.

 

[Luco]

Well, just take a look at the Japanese players. They are better than us (they have proved so) both with MK and without MK. They have taken MK to a whole new level than we have, and yet their players are still easily able to deal with MK (hence why their best players as determined by them are Kyuubi and Nietono, Kyuubi maining IC's and Nietono maining Olimar). If they can deal with MK when he's better than we have him, how do they do it? Their stages. They only have 3. SV, FD, and BF. This makes it so instead of winning by counterpicks (which Americans take advantage of), they win by player skill, and are even able to come here and beat us with the counterpicks we made.

Again I come to this: America should focus on modifying the stages, not the character selection. In all honesty, Meta Knight is not broken at all. It's the stages that make him broken. Sure he will still be the best in the game, but without the stages, he won't be as good as he is. Also, the LGL lowering for only him is ridiculous. And before anyone brings it up, this type of modification is NOT JUST FOR META KNIGHT, but it will improve the skill of all characters as a whole. Sure counterpicks are cool, but when they have such an effect on the outcome of the game where one character can have a huge advantage over another is just stupid.

The funny thing is, even not knowing this, I almost always tend to go for Smashville, Final Destination or Battlefield. Although I don't mind pokemon stadium or Yoshi's Island, there's actually a trend here. Smashville tends to be the favourite where I am, closely followed by FD.

 

[Judo777]

I've got some pretty cool evidence guys to help justify the ban. Obviously with MK gone the metagame has evolved EXTREMELY quickly because it has only been 8 days and apparently we have already seen how the metagame has progressed with the ban and people already know how it will progress from here............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Seriously this is like watching a movie. Something important happens at the beginning (like the mother dies or something) and 5 minutes after the scene you guys are like "no I don't think they should have killed the mother, we need to write to the producers and recommend they change the plot of the movie because it was unjustified. The rest of the movie (which we haven't seen yet) will automatically be terrible because of this."

Like for real guys its been 8 days. So now we can see what happens over the next 3 months and that will give us a GLIMPSE of what they game will be like.

 

[Thino]

I've got some pretty cool evidence guys to help justify the ban. Obviously with MK gone the metagame has evolved EXTREMELY quickly because it has only been 8 days and apparently we have already seen how the metagame has progressed with the ban and people already know how it will progress from here............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Seriously this is like watching a movie. Something important happens at the beginning (like the mother dies or something) and 5 minutes after the scene you guys are like "no I don't think they should have killed the mother, we need to write to the producers and recommend they change the plot of the movie because it was unjustified. The rest of the movie (which we haven't seen yet) will automatically be terrible because of this."

Like for real guys its been 8 days. So now we can see what happens over the next 3 months and that will give us a GLIMPSE of what they game will be like.

If you can say that kind of things, then you probably don't understand why most of us are against the ban

Why do you think we would be interested in seeing how the game evolves WITHOUT Metaknight? I mean what is the point? Apex was the last major tournament where he was legal and where we could still discuss about how he's actually broken or not.

From now on, we will only see him in minor tournaments, money matches or friendlies, we will see more character diversity, more money earned by other characters etc..

But the thing is whichever way the game evolves from now on, the poins we have will still stand from THIS Apex tournament until he gets unbanned and we see MK at Majors again.

 

[Ghostbone]

Kyuubi

It's not Kyuubi, it's 9B, confirmed by the Japanese.

They only have 3. SV, FD, and BF

No they have six, those 3 are the starters, then they have Lylat, Yoshi's Island and Delfino as counter-picks.