Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[Elessar]

The problem Kimidori is that for 4 years, people have been being told to "get better", and it hasn't worked. See, it's ok if you change your main because you realize that he isn't such a good fit for your gaming style after all, or because you always found another character more interesting and decided to act on it and found you're a better fit. The problem is when people change, just out of a misplaced sentiment that you need to change to win. That's the mentality that has to change.

Also, you named top 6 and said that only 4 are mk. 4 ot of 6 is still more than half (and ally now mains mk, not snake irrc, and he played most his matches as mk, not snake). And, even though you mentioned that top 16 has even less mk, it still does nothing against the fact that an MK won 1st and 3rd place, with 4 mks in top 6. I don't want to make any point with this, just point out a possible flaw I saw in your example.

 

[DeLux]

My feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex goes like this:

People are talking about how we should remove all the stages except for three to focus on our fundamentals in 1v1 combat, and try to lose as much focus on gimmicky stages as possible. I don't believe in this, but I will use that same justification of removing critical components of the game to strengthen my position on banning MK.

I feel like we should remove Metaknight from our game so we can focus on other parts of the game, like the rest of the cast as well as the rest of the stages. I know I may sound like a scrub because I want to remove Metaknight from the game when he "doesn't deserve" to be banned, but I'm choosing to ignore whether he deserves to be banned or not because I think removing him is the best approach to better ourselves, the community, and our ruleset.

Oh my god, this analogy is amazing.

props to Twinkie

 

[theunabletable]

i'd just like to note that the MK who won, is the MK from the region where seemingly everyone on this forum said had no good MKs, and the only reason there wasn't MK dominance there was because "they had no good MKs"

just to have that on the record

 

[Jdietz43]

Okay, I see your side of the point. But yet again, you're misunderstanding. Have you even considered a different stagelist in your arguements? No. I don't act like every other character sucks at the game. I actually think some characters have a slight advantage over Meta Knight (such as Ice Climbers, Pikachu, maybe even Diddy, Olimar, etc.). You're taking this overpowered thing WAY too seriously. Also, I never said using MK will make people a better player, or even fighting him. But you CAN'T GET BETTER AT ALL if you are just going to stay away from MK altogether. It just doesn't happen. Japan will be evolving their metagame as much as ever ahead of ours while we complain about Meta Knight. When really, we should be complaining about the stages. Do you even have anything to say about the stages? Because I would like to hear it.

Edit: Also, it's an opinion that the game is becoming less interesting. Let people be people.

Well I definitely don't agree that any characters have a slight advantage over MetaKnight... but be that as it may, I DEFINITELY don't feel that people can't improve without playing MK.

Are you listening to what you're claiming right now in earnest? You can't get better at ALL simply by ignoring one character? WHAT ABOUT THE 15+ LOW TIER CHARACTERS PEOPLE ALWAYS IGNORE BECAUSE NO ONE USES THEM FOR FEAR OF TOP TIER OWNAGE PREDOMINATELY DUE TO METAKNIGHT? I guess we're 15+ times as screwed without the ban then aren't we? You can't have it both ways like that.

MK is one character in the game. One character who is too good for his own good, and the game's good as well. Japan is Japan, we're us. If we want to decide that MK being gone is the best thing we can all do for each other then great (it already has been done).


As far as stages go, I don't feel like they're the supreme force you're talking about. I'm sure making your basic training in a distraction free environment would be a good thing for people to do, but slashing the stage list by over 75% isn't going to do anyone in particular any favors. You've made the game more stable from a game to game sense, and therefore there's less to focus on, which may help some. But there isn't a very large principal difference between say Smashville and Halberd. There are foibles, you lean towards killing off the top when possible because of blast zone differences etc. But those gameplay adjustments are minor when compared to the adjustments one must make from character to character. The way you play a Fox vs. Kirby match as opposed to the way you play a Fox vs. Ike match is going to be far larger in scope of difference than a Fox vs. Kirby match on Delfino vs. a Fox vs Kirby match on Battlefield. It has a distinct effect on the gameplay, but overall not an outrageous one. Enough I'd say it's the spice of the game to have variety. We banned stages that were deemed overly intrusive and or game breaking. Wall infinites and walk off stages have been removed because of their direct impact on gameplay, others like Pirate Ship because of hazards and stage specific glitches (rudder glitch). If you're determined that the stages are your X factor in Brawl, then I encourage you to ban them and stage strike with gusto when given the chance in a set to get neutrals. Until now however no one has had the option of banning MK in a set.

 

[Elessar]

i'd just like to note that the MK who won, is the MK from the region where seemingly everyone on this forum said had no good MKs, and the only reason there wasn't MK dominance there was because "they had no good MKs"

just to have that on the record

Well, the thing is that you could argue that he isn't good mk per se, because he doesn't play according to the US mentality of what MK's metagme should be like, i.e., stalling, sharking, planking, timing out. That, however, does not mean that he isn't a freaking amazing player, period.

I'll use an example for this (not saying it is true, just as an example). Back when I just arrived to the competitive smash scene in early 2010, I was told that ally was the best snake main, but not the best snake. Why was that? Because he didn't play snake as snake is meant to be played, but played solidly, with great reads, great basics and as such, was the most successful snake user. The best snake I was told was Razer, since he did play snake the way snake was supposed to be played (i.e, blowing up the entire stage).

Again, regardless of how true or false that statement maybe, it's a somewhat suitable illustration for the current problem at hand. Otori might not be a great MK player based on just watching his vids (the only exposure the US had to him before he came) becasue he didn't play MK the way MK is suppossed to be played. Yet, he came here and showed everyone that maybe, the US metagame and mentality/approach to the game/character might be a bit off/wrong/not the only one, take your pick.

So, that is what we need to work on now, being great players, with solid basics (spacing, reading, etc, etc), more than just being "good *insert name of charcter*". More than stages, more than anything else, just work on solid basics again and jump start metagames which were thought to be dead ends, and which clearly aren't.

Just a thought I considered worth putting out there.

 

[Kimidori]

The problem Kimidori is that for 4 years, people have been being told to "get better", and it hasn't worked. See, it's ok if you change your main because you realize that he isn't such a good fit for your gaming style after all, or because you always found another character more interesting and decided to act on it and found you're a better fit. The problem is when people change, just out of a misplaced sentiment that you need to change to win. That's the mentality that has to change.

Also, you named top 6 and said that only 4 are mk. 4 ot of 6 is still more than half (and ally now mains mk, not snake irrc, and he played most his matches as mk, not snake). And, even though you mentioned that top 16 has even less mk, it still does nothing against the fact that an MK won 1st and 3rd place, with 4 mks in top 6. I don't want to make any point with this, just point out a possible flaw I saw in your example.

No, they haven't been told to get better. And if they have, they've been johning. The reason why it doesn't work is because they can't get very much better because Meta Knight still has the STAGES in his arsenal. The correct solution is to change the stages. NOT THE CHARACTERS.

Also, lol. I was making a point that out of 9 characters total, not players lol. Ally is still a Snake main, just because he used dominantly MK means nothing XD. Oh, and one thing I noticed, "it still does nothing against the fact that an MK won 1st and 3rd place, with 4 mks in top 6". It's not a flaw, actually your example is a flaw, because I was comparing all the characters to characters, not characters to PLAYERS. 6 players, 9 characters, and 4 of the nine characters are Meta Knight. The character and the player are two different things. Which also leads me to tell you that banning MK won't change people's mentality. Not everyone switches to Meta Knight alone. There are people who switch to higher tier characters (and many will probably start doing it now that the highest is banned). Also, I don't know why people thought about banning MK in the first place. It's not like he's perfect. He can be beaten. One move never means death. I understand you would want to ban him from people switching to him constantly, but so what if he's dominant? He's a character. Don't blame the character, blame the community. Our MKs aren't even that good.

Also, Nietono was most likely to win anyway. It wasn't because Otori was using Meta Knight. Kyuubi would've won it too with Ice Climbers. But the fact is that Otori just outplayed Nietono that day. And guess what Nietono did?? He disciplined himself. If you didn't see the live stream version of the singles GF's, Nietono was very disappointed in himself. He blamed himself, not Meta Knight. Even after losing to someone he usually wins against when they're using Meta Knight he's still anti-ban. You say that "get better" hasn't been working, but again you fail to justify his ban when we narrow down the stages. And, once again, the stage change benefits EVERYONE. It's not just to keep Meta Knight in. Why should Meta Knight be banned in Japan? He shouldn't. Why should he be banned here? Because he has a bunch of stages to use to his advantage, when you think about it.

 

[Elessar]

Again, I am in favour of reducing the stage list, maybe (or surely) not to just the 3 neutrals, but it must be reduced (Apex stage list looks fine imho). Also, I'm not blaming MK the character, I am blaming the community, as as such, the ban would really be a punishment to the community right?

 

[Steam]

Have you tried playing Metaknight? I'll give you a little pointer: it's not an easy pass to top 8 at a tournament that isn't completely free, you arrogant *******. I used to think like this... Then I started to actually play the game.

It isn't easy, but it's a helluva lot easier than plowing through mks as 90% of the roster. And yes, I co-Mained mk before he was banned

 

[Kimidori]

Well I definitely don't agree that any characters have a slight advantage over MetaKnight... but be that as it may, I DEFINITELY don't feel that people can't improve without playing MK.

Are you listening to what you're claiming right now in earnest? You can't get better at ALL simply by ignoring one character? WHAT ABOUT THE 15+ LOW TIER CHARACTERS PEOPLE ALWAYS IGNORE BECAUSE NO ONE USES THEM FOR FEAR OF TOP TIER OWNAGE PREDOMINATELY DUE TO METAKNIGHT? I guess we're 15+ times as screwed without the ban then aren't we? You can't have it both ways like that.

MK is one character in the game. One character who is too good for his own good, and the game's good as well. Japan is Japan, we're us. If we want to decide that MK being gone is the best thing we can all do for each other then great (it already has been done).


As far as stages go, I don't feel like they're the supreme force you're talking about. I'm sure making your basic training in a distraction free environment would be a good thing for people to do, but slashing the stage list by over 75% isn't going to do anyone in particular any favors. You've made the game more stable from a game to game sense, and therefore there's less to focus on, which may help some. But there isn't a very large principal difference between say Smashville and Halberd. There are foibles, you lean towards killing off the top when possible because of blast zone differences etc. But those gameplay adjustments are minor when compared to the adjustments one must make from character to character. The way you play a Fox vs. Kirby match as opposed to the way you play a Fox vs. Ike match is going to be far larger in scope of difference than a Fox vs. Kirby match on Delfino vs. a Fox vs Kirby match on Battlefield. It has a distinct effect on the gameplay, but overall not an outrageous one. Enough I'd say it's the spice of the game to have variety. We banned stages that were deemed overly intrusive and or game breaking. Wall infinites and walk off stages have been removed because of their direct impact on gameplay, others like Pirate Ship because of hazards and stage specific glitches (rudder glitch). If you're determined that the stages are your X factor in Brawl, then I encourage you to ban them and stage strike with gusto when given the chance in a set to get neutrals. Until now however no one has had the option of banning MK in a set.

Wow. Just wow. Add that to the amount of times you have either missed the point or didn't argue a point at all. You'll have a high number.

Once again, I know what you're talking about. BUT, once again, You're wrong.

When stages get in the way of a game to the point of subtracting from character skill, something should be done. I don't like watching Meta Knight destroy on a level like RC. I'm not saying we should take away every stage, but take away the ones that give advantages. I say we should narrow it down somewhat to: FD, SV, BF, YI (Brawl), Halberd, and maybe even Pokemon Stadium 1. We can't just have all these counterpicks changing the game as much as it does. Have you seen how far Melee has come since the wacky stages have started to disappear? The metagame is practically reaching its peak (Or at least nearing). As I have said before : If we want to become as good as they (Japan) are at this game, then we need to focus on taking out stages, not characters.

Is your opinion on Meta Knight biased at all, considering you're a Luigi main? Or perhaps the fact that you are afraid of true skill and you want to keep these gimmicky stages. I want you to post an arguement that actually argues my topic and includes logic that makes sense. So far you haven't done so. It's been mostly opinion.

 

[Kuro~]

No, they haven't been told to get better. And if they have, they've been johning. The reason why it doesn't work is because they can't get very much better because Meta Knight still has the STAGES in his arsenal. The correct solution is to change the stages. NOT THE CHARACTERS.

Also, lol. I was making a point that out of 9 characters total, not players lol. Ally is still a Snake main, just because he used dominantly MK means nothing XD. Oh, and one thing I noticed, "it still does nothing against the fact that an MK won 1st and 3rd place, with 4 mks in top 6". It's not a flaw, actually your example is a flaw, because I was comparing all the characters to characters, not characters to PLAYERS. 6 players, 9 characters, and 4 of the nine characters are Meta Knight. The character and the player are two different things. Which also leads me to tell you that banning MK won't change people's mentality. Not everyone switches to Meta Knight alone. There are people who switch to higher tier characters (and many will probably start doing it now that the highest is banned). Also, I don't know why people thought about banning MK in the first place. It's not like he's perfect. He can be beaten. One move never means death. I understand you would want to ban him from people switching to him constantly, but so what if he's dominant? He's a character. Don't blame the character, blame the community. Our MKs aren't even that good.

Also, Nietono was most likely to win anyway. It wasn't because Otori was using Meta Knight. Kyuubi would've won it too with Ice Climbers. But the fact is that Otori just outplayed Nietono that day. And guess what Nietono did?? He disciplined himself. If you didn't see the live stream version of the singles GF's, Nietono was very disappointed in himself. He blamed himself, not Meta Knight. Even after losing to someone he usually wins against when they're using Meta Knight he's still anti-ban. You say that "get better" hasn't been working, but again you fail to justify his ban when we narrow down the stages. And, once again, the stage change benefits EVERYONE. It's not just to keep Meta Knight in. Why should Meta Knight be banned in Japan? He shouldn't. Why should he be banned here? Because he has a bunch of stages to use to his advantage, when you think about it.

Just a spectator here but...

HE HAS PUBLICLY DECLARED MANY TIMES HE DOES NOT MAIN SNAKE AT ALL ANYMORE!!!

He IS a mk main now. He has several secondaries for player weaknesses(himself or others) and character weaknesses and that's all there is to it.
Sheesh.


Edit: HOW IN THE WORLD COULD YOU PUT HALBERD>PS1 Even in japan halberd isn't legal so you can't even begin to justify it...

I'd ban, RC, Brinstar, and halberd. Everything else is fine. Ps1, cs, ps2, and frigate are debatable though...


Also, most informed people have never said japan's mk are bad...we've always known otori was very good. What people say are that the mk's there don't abuse the full defensive capabilities open to mk. While most americans "try" and some succeed.

Not going anywhere with that.

Just correcting a false statement.

 

[Kimidori]

Again, I am in favour of reducing the stage list, maybe (or surely) not to just the 3 neutrals, but it must be reduced (Apex stage list looks fine imho). Also, I'm not blaming MK the character, I am blaming the community, as as such, the ban would really be a punishment to the community right?

I like what you just posted. Mostly because it's a solid opinion and a great question that must be noted.

"the ban would really be a punishment to the community right?"
Well, you see, punishing the community is also NOT what we want to do. While it may give them a chance to work on their other characters, what makes you believe they won't just switch to Meta Knight when he comes back?
I think Punishing the community will both introduce disdain towards the community itself, and also it just seperates us as a whole. I mean think, we're losing our best players because of this ban. Who's going to be the best now? Ally? Nairo? Vinnie? Unlikely. I think punishing the community is an even worse decision than just not banning him at all and keeping all these stages and limits (although both are a bad choice), because, without the best character in the game present (when he's probably going to return anyway), how would we get any better?

Another point is that, If we want to beat Japan, beating an Olimar doesn't justify anything. Japan beat us with all our best players present, with both a player that has never even won a tournament, and the 2nd best in their country. Imagine how badly we would get slaughtered if they brought a whole plain full of their BEST players.

Just a spectator here but...

HE HAS PUBLICLY DECLARED MANY TIMES HE DOES NOT MAIN SNAKE AT ALL ANYMORE!!!

He IS a mk main now. He has several secondaries for player weaknesses(himself or others) and character weaknesses and that's all there is to it.
Sheesh.


Edit: HOW IN THE WORLD COULD YOU PUT HALBERD>PS1 Even in japan halberd isn't legal so you can't even begin to justify it...

I'd ban, RC, Brinstar, and halberd. Everything else is fine. Ps1, cs, ps2, and frigate are debatable though...


Also, most informed people have never said japan's mk are bad...we've always known otori was very good. What people say are that the mk's there don't abuse the full defensive capabilities open to mk. While most americans "try" and some succeed.

Not going anywhere with that.

Just correcting a false statement.

Thanks for correcting me XD. Well, maybe Ally does main MK now. But he still used Snake, and he will probably continue to. Japan's MK's are actually very good, I know. They are better than America's MKs. But their other characters are still at a point where they can compete with them.

Also, Lol. I didn't mean to put Halberd > PS1... XD But regardless, we should definitely narrow the list down. A lot more than now.

 

[Steam]

Kimi- fd,sv, and bf give advantages. In fact fd is probably one of the most polar stages in the game...

 

[Elessar]

Kimi- fd,sv, and bf give advantages. In fact fd is probably one of the most polar stages in the game...

This is true, FD is extremely favorable to stage dominant chars like Snake or CG ones, like IC/D3.

Also, the assumption that they would all flock back to MK as soon as he is unbanned is just a presumption. The idea is for them to go back to the character they like but quit due to MK and rediscover that passion for the character that makes them commit to it and work to improve its status.

Also, who is the current best according to you? Because you throw names like Ally, Nairo and Vinnie in what seems a half mocking way, saying something along the lines of "Who's gonna be the best now? Them? Yeah, sure!"...which is highly disrespectful considering Nairo made 3rd at Apex, Ally has consistently been one of the top players in the US, Essam got 4th, and all the other top players already which have been established as such through victory after victory. You make it sound like the only hope for the US to improve lies in MK and M2K, which is exactly the sentiment the ban is fighting against.

 

[Jdietz43]

Kimidori, are you just ignoring things on purpose now? I'm starting to think you're just mis/underinformed on some things. Ally has been a MetaKnight main for a quite awhile now, it's common knowledge. Ignoring other views of data seems negligent. It's very pertinent to understand that 4 out of 6 players used MK in some way or another, don't just throw out data.

I don't think you're really getting me either. You seem to have slipped into insulting me simply for enjoying stage variety. Avoiding true skill? Claiming I'm not making points? Then what the heck are all these paragraphs I've been writing out discussing it with you for?

I think we're done here.

 

[Kimidori]

This is true, FD is extremely favorable to stage dominant chars like Snake or CG ones, like IC/D3.

Also, the assumption that they would all flock back to MK as soon as he is unbanned is just a presumption. The idea is for them to go back to the character they like but quit due to MK and rediscover that passion for the character that makes them commit to it and work to improve its status.

Also, who is the current best according to you? Because you throw names like Ally, Nairo and Vinnie in what seems a half mocking way, saying something along the lines of "Who's gonna be the best now? Them? Yeah, sure!"...which is highly disrespectful considering Nairo made 3rd at Apex, Ally has consistently been one of the top players in the US, Essam got 4th, and all the other top players already which have been established as such through victory after victory. You make it sound like the only hope for the US to improve lies in MK and M2K, which is exactly the sentiment the ban is fighting against.

I may have worded it wrong If I'm sounding like that. But anyway, I was saying that some of our best players are MK mains. Not because they use MK, but because they're good. Even Ally and Nairo both use Meta Knight. I was saying that, without both being able to use Meta Knight and practice against Meta Knight will just hurt our chances of beating places like Japan in the long run. We will lose our experience against him. Japan's best players aren't even Meta Knight mains. And yet their Meta Knight, that constantly loses to Olimars and IC's and such, is able to wipe out most of America's players? And then we still want to get rid of the character that we lose against?

All in all, I think banning Meta Knight for even a short while is fixing nothing, and will have a bad effect on the community as a whole- Both in metagame and in togetherness. I don't see how getting rid of him is better than just getting rid of stages.

How about this: If we had the same ruleset as Japan, with your mind now, what would your opinion be on banning Meta Knight?

Also, about FD, one grab doesn't ALWAYS mean insta-death. And even if it does it doesn't mean insta-game. D3's chaingrab can't go on forever (it can already be tough as it is) and IC's chain grab is incredibly difficult to master on all the characters. I should know, I use them XD

 

[Elessar]

We will lose our experience against him. Japan's best players aren't even Meta Knight mains.

This is the problem, and the answer to your question. Right now, MK is dominant in the US scene, so much that it gimps other metagames, correct? Well, if Japan has a more developed metagame with the rest of the cast to the point that their top player isn't MK, then in order to beat then the US needs to know how to beat the rest of the cast, not only MK, and the US right now is not suitably posed to do that because the main migration caused due to MK's dominance has stunted the understanding/proper development of other metagames. Again, point in case, m2k being defeated by a ROB, a MU thought not possible.

In short, if the concern is beating Japan, and Japan's best players aren't even MK, then the MK MU isn't as important as developing and maximizing the rest of the cast.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Kimidori, are you just ignoring things on purpose now? I'm starting to think you're just mis/underinformed on some things. Ally has been a MetaKnight main for a quite awhile now, it's common knowledge. Ignoring other views of data seems negligent. It's very pertinent to understand that 4 out of 6 players used MK in some way or another, don't just throw out data.

I don't think you're really getting me either. You seem to have slipped into insulting me simply for enjoying stage variety. Avoiding true skill? Claiming I'm not making points? Then what the heck are all these paragraphs I've been writing out discussing it with you for?

I think we're done here.

4 out of 6 players play MK?

Taking a page outta your book: Source? Don't just throw data out there. Otherwise you're just waxing hyperbole.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Kimidori]

This is the problem, and the answer to your question. Right now, MK is dominant in the US scene, so much that it gimps other metagames, correct? Well, if Japan has a more developed metagame with the rest of the cast to the point that their top player isn't MK, then in order to beat then the US needs to know how to beat the rest of the cast, not only MK, and the US right now is not suitably posed to do that because the main migration caused due to MK's dominance has stunted the understanding/proper development of other metagames. Again, point in case, m2k being defeated by a ROB, a MU thought not possible.

In short, if the concern is beating Japan, and Japan's best players aren't even MK, then the MK MU isn't as important as developing and maximizing the rest of the cast.

Hmm. But here lies the biggest question: Is it America's inexperience with other matchups? Or is it Japan's excellent experience with other matchups? Surely, OCEAN has gotten used to the MK matchup. But he not only knows that one, he knows plenty of other matchups too.
Here's a video in which Otori himself gets defeated by OCEAN:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEcxjGG-YDM

Kimidori, are you just ignoring things on purpose now? I'm starting to think you're just mis/underinformed on some things. Ally has been a MetaKnight main for a quite awhile now, it's common knowledge. Ignoring other views of data seems negligent. It's very pertinent to understand that 4 out of 6 players used MK in some way or another, don't just throw out data.

I don't think you're really getting me either. You seem to have slipped into insulting me simply for enjoying stage variety. Avoiding true skill? Claiming I'm not making points? Then what the heck are all these paragraphs I've been writing out discussing it with you for?

I think we're done here.

No, we're not done. YOU'RE ignoring the fact that Those 4 players used OTHER CHARACTERS as well. So what if they used him anyway?? Meta Knight is the best character, you can't just expect some random low tier to rise up out of no where and clinch top 5. It just doesn't happen. Check OCEAN. If he had more experience playing both Japanese players AND American players, he probably would've done better. Why? Because he has learned the matchups and tried hard since day one of maining ROB. Do you want some random low tier to just rise up? Because even with more "diversity" and "variety" with MK banned it's not going to happen. Also, I was saying that your points did not at all argue what I was saying. Or at least well.

 

[Elessar]

Could be both, they're not mutually exclusive. What we do know is that if Ocean, a ROB, beat m2k and Otori, the Apex champ, with what the US considers a more than uphill MU, then the US should be focusing on the other MUs, in understanding the rest of the cast more in depth. That's why a ban which was decided upon long before Apex rolled in will work, because it will force people to play and study, and learn other characters.

The fact that the US thought that MK vs ROB MU was laughable is evidence that something in the MU concept or understanding is broken.

Also, Smooth Criminal, Dietz meant in top 6 Apex, not a broad statistic.

 

[Ussi]

Kimi- fd,sv, and bf give advantages. In fact fd is probably one of the most polar stages in the game...

I'd say BF is probably the most even stage in the game. People that don't like BF tend to just have weak platform pressure games themselves. Every character has platform pressure ability, so its not a character flaw on BF. It just comes down to comfort of the player on the stage, which is why its my go-to stage when CPing. I'm just very comfortable on BF, as is probably a lot of other players.

 

[Kimidori]

Could be both, they're not mutually exclusive. What we do know is that if Ocean, a ROB, beat m2k and Otori, the Apex champ, with what the US considers a more than uphill MU, then the US should be focusing on the other MUs, in understanding the rest of the cast more in depth. That's why a ban which was decided upon long before Apex rolled in will work, because it will force people to play and study, and learn other characters.

The fact that the US thought that MK vs ROB MU was laughable is evidence that something in the MU concept or understanding is broken.

Also, Smooth Criminal, Dietz meant in top 6 Apex, not a brad statistic.

Ahh, I understand further what your true arguement is. It makes sense. But I must bring up one thing. How has Japan been able to get so in depth with matchups WITHOUT banning Meta Knight? They have a smaller stage list! That's all we need, and then the lower tier mainers will have a better chance to win. We don't have to handicap Meta Knight as far as giving him a lower ledge grab limit than everyone else. In fact that in itself would be unecessary if we had a smaller stage list. I just want you to understand that changing the stages we can use is twenty times better than changing the characters we can use. It just isn't right to take out a character.

 

[Elessar]

This is the answer to your question, check this post out.

Also, you're taking one HUGE factor out of play. Culture and mindset. Japanese a very different culture, mindset and view points from Americans, and that is a defining factor as to why they play the way they play, and why there isntt a MK centralization there.

 

[Kimidori]

This is the answer to your question, check this post out.

Also, you're taking one HUGE factor out of play. Culture and mindset. Japanese a very different culture, mindset and view points from Americans, and that is a defining factor as to why they play the way they play, and why there is not MK centralization there.

I know being passionate about your characters is important, but it doesn't answer the question. Yes, culture and mindset are in fact important. But it's mostly mindset. When you think about it though, they came into our area, played with our culture, and still won.

From your standpoint, it seems like only Japan is able to do what they've been doing. But are they? Europe is best in Melee (now). I'm sure America could easily become just as good if we even TRIED to pull our game together. Changing stages is a wiser decision. I want to at least SEE how the community will flourish under stage changed conditions.

 

[Elessar]

Just as you want to see what happens with the community with a reduced stage list, so do we want to see what happens when MK is no longer an option. Also, I never said that only the Japanese can do it, in fact, I named to top US players, Verm and San, both american, and both reached that same level and mindset.

And Japan played on US soil, but not with US culture. The culture is not the rules of the game, but how you play and face the game. Again, training to be better, not to win.

 

[Kimidori]

Just as you want to see what happens with the community with a reduced stage list, so do we want to see what happens when MK is no longer an option. Also, I never said that only the Japanese can do it, in fact, I named to top US players, Verm and San, both american, and both reached that same level and mindset.

And Japan played on US soil, but not with US culture. The culture is not the rules of the game, but how you play and face the game. Again, training to be better, not to win.

Verm and San are both great. They have a truly amazing mindset that does seperate them from the rest of the American community. If they can do it, why can't most of the other people do it?

Also, I think you're hoping too much with this ban. Low tier players aren't just gonna rise up out of nowhere and take top 5 (or even top 8, for that matter). Also, taking away MK will de-evolve our metagame for a while, giving us TONS of catching up to do before we can even compare with the Japanese.

Top tiers are still going to be common. I know it's a dumb hypathetical statement, but, if the tourneys became ONLY Snake and Diddy in America, what would we do? Would we ban them? No, because they're not as powerful.

Wanting everyone to stop using the best character in the game is not a valid reason to ban the best character in the game. J/s.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Okay.

That kinda statement brings us to the question most commonly asked in this thread: Is it the player, or is it just the character?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Kimidori]

Okay.

That kinda statement brings us to the question most commonly asked in this thread: Is it the player, or is it just the character?

Smooth Criminal

That's the thing. It's the player. It's not Meta Knight's fault everyone flocks to him, it's everyone's fault for thinking he will make them win in the first place. Also, as said before, pocket MK's are never as good as full on MK mains. It just doesn't work that way.

 

[Hylian]

Even people who switch to full mk mains don't generally do well. Show me one person who switched to a mk main and suddenly started doing significantly better/placing at nationals with mk? The only people I can think of that picked up mk and have done well with him were already some of the best players in the nation.

Also, banning mk to get other characters to catch up is backwards logic. It will only hinder other characters because they won't be getting one of the most important match-up experience, and it will hinder our MKs because they won't be playing him. The same people will be making the money, because they are the best players. It's ONLY the mentality that we need to change to improve our metagame.

A lot of this comes from the negative stigma associated with brawl. People complain about hating the game yet they still play it. They don't really hate it or they wouldn't be playing it, that's just stupid. It's just ingrained into some peoples minds that the game is bad and only minimal effort should be put in to get better at it or that gay strategies are the best way to go. If people weren't as ashamed to enjoy the game you would probably see a lot more effort put into it. Currently most players hardly play except for at tournaments.

In 2008 when the game first came out I would play for HOURS I mean like 5-7 hours a day by myself or on wifi. I discovered so many things, practiced so many characters, and just kept refining my skills because I wanted to be the BEST. And you know what? It worked. I won a LOT of tournaments in 2008, placed top 5 in like every tournament I entered for a year, and constantly improved to beat my rivals. Eventually, I just took my skill for granted(not attesting to all the practice I put in) and fell off. Since then I have never put in that level of determination to be the best because it seems like such a far shot. Why put so much effort into something that isn't likely to happen?

Currently I don't have the time or resources to put in that effort, nor the interest. For the people who do however, do it because it's your passion. So many people try to take the easy way out without even knowing about it. If you REALLY put in the work you will at LEAST be able to win regionals. If you have talent that's how you become a top player. It's the mentality and determination of players that has shaped our metagame, not the characters. It's very possible to change.

 

[John12346]

Okay.

That kinda statement brings us to the question most commonly asked in this thread: Is it the player, or is it just the character?

Smooth Criminal

Well, at this point, I should probably point out an excerpt of the data I've been collecting over the past year of 2011. You can view the post here, but the main bit of data I want to put emphasis on for the moment is this part:

Spoiler

I don't think anyone disagrees that MK has won a large amount of money for a large amount of players, relative to what the rest of the cast could pull in American Brawl in general, but this should set the record straight for those who say otherwise. For the sake of remaining objective, I'm not going to say that these are "problematic" numbers, but I will at least say that MK definitely hauled a significantly larger amount of cash than what the rest of the cast was capable of(evidenced further by the rest of the data in the linked post), so that's that.

 

[Kimidori]

Thank you Hylian XD. You always were one of my favorite players.

 

[SmashChu]

The ban on Meta-Knight was misguided. The unity committee had no Meta-Knight players on it when they voted.

Also, the best MK in the US was beaten by a ROB, a character people said could not beat MK (let alone the best one). Heck, M2K only won the second round in a time out on a stage Ocean doesn't play. It's not the character, but the fact the meta-game is so under developed (where Japan's metagame is developed).

This is the answer to your question, check this post out.

Also, you're taking one HUGE factor out of play. Culture and mindset. Japanese a very different culture, mindset and view points from Americans, and that is a defining factor as to why they play the way they play, and why there isntt a MK centralization there.

Culture is an excuse more than anything. I like Occam's Razor. The best answer is the one with the fewest variables. The simple fact is they are better and played better. No culture needed.

Competitive Smash Bros's problem is things like the Meta-game. Ocean won because he played solid and played Brawl rather than trying to play Melee.

From your standpoint, it seems like only Japan is able to do what they've been doing. But are they? Europe is best in Melee (now). I'm sure America could easily become just as good if we even TRIED to pull our game together. Changing stages is a wiser decision. I want to at least SEE how the community will flourish under stage changed conditions.

Flaw mindsets wont be fixed by a new stage pool. The stages are fine. The players need to step their game up.

 

[Komatik]

This thread is ridiculous. So, America has a rotten attitude of seeking the shortest route ot victory by tier list whoring and abusing counterpick stages instead of working on their fundamentals. Will that ban change the mentality? Like hell. Metaknight isn't some unique flower, the game has a multitude of characters who don't have any actual bad matchups (whoever says "slight advantage" is bad in any meaningful way gets a good sledgehammer blow to the head), so the tier whoring will just move to those characters. Metagame development, like hell. So long as people just invent new ways to be lame and do that. Not to mention those high tiers (who are highly viable now already because they have good matchups across the board) oppress the low tiers pretty damn well, last I checked.

"Punishing the community by banning MK" will not do jack. It'll just make you look sad in the eyes of others.

Finally:

There are two schools of player who compete in Brawl:

People who come to win, for whom only winning by any means brings joy.
And people who come to fight, for whom playing with strategy brings joy.

MK ban makes the first unhappy because they feel like they should be able to do anything in order to win, no matter how drastic or stilted in their favor. If it's in the game it's also fair game. No matter what that end game may end up looking like.
MK being unbanned makes the second unhappy because they feel like MK is choking off the entire rest of the game with his presence on a level otherwise unreachable, forcing everyone to be him or tolerate it when they fight and invariably lose as there's no counter strategy available.

This kind of attitude is sad, offensive and makes me want to smash the poster's face in for being a ****wad. You know why I'm fuming about this MK ban nonsense? Guess how many characters I can actually enjoy playing in Brawl? The answer is a grand total of three. Two are solidly at the bottom of the barrel, one happens to be top tier. And that one top tier character happens to be banned. Yay for not being able to compete seriously while actually enjoying the game because people lack a ****ing spine and make some excuses to ban him.

The excuses are the worst, to be honest. "We hate him and don't want to see him" is at least something honest and something I can respect to a point. Trying to cobble together some contrived reasons for "justifiedly" banning him is just insulting. At least you Americans have some kind of problems with MK. The Finnish MK ban thread consists of hilarious things like "Better ban him now rather than when he actually becomes a problem".

Such a sick, sick joke, and a sad one to boot. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

/vent

 

[WindMajor]

The reason why you're so unhappy might have to do with how horribly uninformed you are.

 

[The Ben]

Oh noez, my fun!

 

[Kimidori]

I agree completely with SmashChu. The Smash Community needs to realize that banning Meta Knight will not make our characters better at all. It will make us worse because we will practically be hiding from the best character in the game while we try to practice.

Think of it like this: What happens when you can't beat someone, so you just stop playing against them for a while. While you're not playing against them, you practice with other people who also can't beat them. Once you start playing that person again, you're going to be NO BETTER against that person than you were before. Much like Meta Knight will be just as good against everyone else if the ban takes a while to come back. The whole idea of banning Meta Knight is flawed in general.

 

[Kuro~]

Lmao this thread is so entertaining.

People need to calm down. Flaming doesn't get anyone anywhere.

The ban on Meta-Knight was misguided. The unity committee had no Meta-Knight players on it when they voted.

Also, the best MK in the US was beaten by a ROB, a character people said could not beat MK (let alone the best one). Heck, M2K only won the second round in a time out on a stage Ocean doesn't play. It's not the character, but the fact the meta-game is so under developed (where Japan's metagame is developed).


Culture is an excuse more than anything. I like Occam's Razor. The best answer is the one with the fewest variables. The simple fact is they are better and played better. No culture needed.

Competitive Smash Bros's problem is things like the Meta-game. Ocean won because he played solid and played Brawl rather than trying to play Melee.



Flaw mindsets wont be fixed by a new stage pool. The stages are fine. The players need to step their game up.

3 things.

Delphino is legal in japan.

M2k played like balls.

Ocean is amazing.

CONEY ALMOST 3 STOCKED M2K A WHILE BACK!! DEDEDE'S OBVIOUSLY JUST NEED TO GET BETTER.








edit:fuuuuuuuuuuuuu figured someone would of posted by the tiem i made this post at the rate ppl were posting QQ

TWIIIIIIINKI. Merge my posts

/ashamed with a side of ...

 

[WindMajor]

I agree completely with SmashChu. The Smash Community needs to realize that banning Meta Knight will not make our characters better at all. It will make us worse because we will practically be hiding from the best character in the game while we try to practice.

Think of it like this: What happens when you can't beat someone, so you just stop playing against them for a while. While you're not playing against them, you practice with other people who also can't beat them. Once you start playing that person again, you're going to be NO BETTER against that person than you were before. Much like Meta Knight will be just as good against everyone else if the ban takes a while to come back. The whole idea of banning Meta Knight is flawed in general.

I don't think we banned Metaknight for the reason of bettering the rest of the cast. The rest of the cast getting better could be a by-product of the ban, but I don't think that was a reason, let alone the only reason.

 

[Kimidori]

I don't think we banned Metaknight for the reason of bettering the rest of the cast. The rest of the cast getting better could be a by-product of the ban, but I don't think that was a reason, let alone the only reason.

Even so, that's the main reason pro-ban is coming up with atm. I mean really, what a pathetic reason. I think it's probably the only reason they can defend atm. Until they come up with another one

 

[WindMajor]

Did you not even read my post?

 

[Strong Badam]

Coming from the community that refuses to recognizes CPU as a talented player because Evo had a different set of rules.

daaaaaaang
the callout