Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[Kimidori]

Ok it has taken me three days of reading to catch up with this thread but now that I am here I want to talk a bit about the “Conservative Stage List”.

Basically what this conservative stage list consists of is removing the vast majority of stages that favor aerial combat in favor of stages that favor grounded combat under the reasoning of a more “balanced” stage list. Now why are the stages being discussed on the chopping block? I hear a lot of reasons like “it is better for competition”, “MK won’t be as broken”, or “they are janky”. What it comes down to is that theses janky stages are only janky is because MK is just so powerful on these stages. Problem is these are preferred stages for numerous aerial characters that do not deserve to have their ideal counter picks removed while all of the ground based characters get a stage list that is catered to their needs.

The reason that people think that this stage list would be a good way of balancing MK is because he is the most powerful aerial character in the game. So by performing a surgical nerf on MK by limiting all stage picks that encourage aerial combat we perform a global nerf that hurts all aerial characters such as G&W and Wario. The reason that this does help balance MK is that the only characters that can even go close to toe to toe with are only on par with him on the ground. So we are changing the metagame to accommodate MK by hurting all aerial characters just to get him to drop from S+++ tier to S tier so that we can maybe accommodate him?

I believe that this is a big part of why the Japanese performed so well here in America. Due to them having a stage list that emphasizes ground combat and when they come over here we change our stage list to a more “conservative” stage list which just happens to be more ground based so of course they performed well. Look at their two best players, they main two of the most ground based characters in the game, ICs and Olimar.

I hear a lot of talk of a character ban should be a last resort, and I agree with this but how much damage needs to be done to the whole structure of our metagame and “Global rules” that are there only to balance MK with the rest of the cast while damaging many other characters in the crossfire before we say it is time to stop hurting the bystanders and use our last resort?

It's not like aerial characters will be shut down or disadvantaged AT ALL. Aerial characters don't need a moving stage or anything like that. They just need platforms. Which they have on Smashville and Battlefield. A moving platform on Smashville even. And we don't even just have to stay on those three stages either. We can allow Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, and maybe even Frigate. Actually, that might be perfect. The first three only give a slight advantage to ground characters, while the second three give only a slight advantage to aerial characters.

 

[WindMajor]

LOL WHAT?!?!?! Were you at the tournament or are you just speculating from that one set? Otori/Rain both consistently beat M2K in mk dittos, Otori beat pretty much every single one of our top mk players in MM's or in tournament, or pretty much all of the top 6 japanese beating almost all of our top players in MM's, even Otori beating M2K/Anti in teams, Nairo has never come close to doing something like that, especially with a mk player considered worse than himself.

NOT TO MENTION the fact that Otori has never won in japan AND LOSES TO OTHER MK PLAYERS THERE. Regardless of how close his set with Nairo was he still won, and still beat all our other players.

If you were at the tournament the level of skill the japanese were displaying was CLEARLY over ours, and pretty much all of our top players will tell you that.

Poor wording on my part. It's not "we're practically even". It should be "he's practically even".

But anyways, I don't believe that. I can agree that the Japanese Metaknight players are better than us, but I don't believe that they're "on another level" or that they heavily outclass everyone else. They might have pulled wins out a lot of people, but the matches themselves are so close that they're practically evenly matched, if not, then very close to even. It hardly matters who got the win if the matches could go either way.

I'm only referencing Otori here because unlike Kakera or Rain, his Metaknight hasn't been bested by one of our own (although we came extremely close).

 

[Cassio]

Ambiguous words like "on another level" are not helpful, lol. Not directed at anyone in particular since everyones been saying it, but if everyone has a different definition then everyone can be right.

Also Nairo was the only one that seemed particularly close. I wouldnt say being 0-3'd (ally) is close. Same with the stuff we saw in doubles and friendlies.

 

[WindMajor]

I pay more attention to the actual gameplay rather than the statistics at the end. Being 3-0'd is nothing to be ashamed of if each game was last hit.

 

[Cassio]

Those matches arent even up and werent streamed as far as I can tell, lol. How would you know they were close? What I did happen to see on stream was Otori outplaying and beating M2K in friendlies after the tournament.

And consistency is one of the hardest things to achieve in many games. Winning by 3 stocks in some matches while losing others isnt as good as consistently winning. Look at sports teams, many people frequently misjudge teams that win by large margins and then drops several games when the team that does a steadily good job tends to win championships.

 

[WindMajor]

I don't believe Meta Knight should be limited. If there's an LGL, it should go for everyone at the same number. We don't have to limit him.

I already addressed this. The LGL is flimsy regardless. It shouldn't even be used.

Changing the stages also is not only directed towards MK. It will improve the entire cast as a whole, I'm just making a point it will make it so we don't HAVE to ban him. It's not aimed at Meta Knight at all. Meta Knight or no Meta Knight, something should be done about the ******** stages anyway. It's a fact if we want to get better at the game.

If you want to say that removing the stages is not related to MK, then I will give you that point, but it's hard to take you seriously when you try to discredit a stage using a win by MK, like you did here:

Almost everyone has seen M2K vs OCEAN by now, right? Well, did you see that M2K won by "counterpicking" Delfino, then TIMING OCEAN OUT? I mean really, we call this guy the best. Or at least we used to. OCEAN put in some hard *** work into ROB, and it payed off. What do you think would happen if M2K was playing with Japan's ruleset? Do you think M2K still would've won that second match? Or do you think Ocean would've 2-0'd him?

...and here...

He may be better than the rest of the cast on all of the stages, but he won't be as be as much better without all of his ******** counterpicks he can abuse the hell out of.

Speaking of the post directly above, I think you're missing a critical part of my point, and that is that MK is not the only person that can abuse the **** out of the stage list to get wins.

Stages wouldn't have as much as an effect on our game as they do now if we just took away all of those lame counterpicks so people couldn't just pick a stage and increase their chances of winning tenfold.

You say it right here that characters (not just Metaknight) can increase their chances of winning "by tenfold" if we allowed more stages for them to use. If we wanted to balance Metaknight out, why would you end up suggesting the opposite of what you're trying to do?


-

Those matches arent even up and werent streamed as far as I can tell, lol. How would you know they were close? What I did happen to see on stream was Otori outplaying and beating M2K in friendlies after the tournament.

And consistency is one of the hardest things to achieve in many games. Winning by 3 stocks in some matches while losing others isnt as good as consistently winning. Look at sports teams, many people frequently misjudge teams that win by large margins and then drops several games when the team that does a steadily good job tends to win championships.

I don't know that the matches are close, which is why I haven't said anything. I am however, commenting on matches I have seen, like Otori vs. Nairo.

 

[Kimidori]

I already addressed this. The LGL is flimsy regardless. It shouldn't even be used.






If you want to say that removing the stages is not related to MK, then I will give you that point, but it's hard to take you seriously when you try to discredit a stage using a win by MK, like you did here:



...and here...






Speaking of the post directly above, I think you're missing a critical part of my point, and that is that MK is not the only person that can abuse the **** out of the stage list to get wins.



You say it right here that characters (not just Metaknight) can increase their chances of winning "by tenfold" if we allowed more stages for them to use. If we wanted to balance Metaknight out, why would you end up suggesting the opposite of what you're trying to do?

I can tell you that I'm pretty sure Ocean would've done better than he already did if M2K wasn't allowed to CP Deflino in the second game. On top of that, he timed OCEAN out. Would he have been able to even win at all if he had chosen a different stage? Delfino involves both Aerial and ground movements, which ROB seems to be okay at both, but when you factor in that Delfino has multiple platforms all over the place, ROB's at a disadvantage. Bottom line is, the stage had to do with the win.

I'm saying that MK is the only character that can abuse EVERY single stage to factor in his advantage. A lot of characters can only abuse a few, but the ones they can abuse give them a BIG advantage. I understand why you would think I'm not justifying myself, but I don't think I was clear enough. What I mean is, many characters are able to abuse stages, but Meta Knight just does it the best. So, regardless of Meta Knight, taking away stages would do the community VERY well. Do you understand now?

Also, I'm not suggesting "the opposite" of what I'm trying to do. We should remove stages, that's that. Of course everyone can use stages to their advantages, it's just Meta Knight can do it way better. Also, I think it's unfair because Meta Knight can counterpick any stage, and most other characters can't counterpick anything at all.

 

[Plasma]

Perfectly viable? Not at all. Not even close. If the stages are giving full on advantages to some characters over others to the point of skill being compeltely irrelavant, and we want to keep that, then well, "we" are stupid. Keeping those stages in will just keep us in our sheltered little world where we can just win by picking a stage. Why do you think Melee only has neutrals now?

What characters invalidate other characters on what currently legal stages?

 

[Steam]

Kimi, why do you act like some of the legal stages just hand out free wins? Because they rarely do unless the mu sucks to begin with, and in those other cases there are stage bans so yeah.

Also ban fd, it gives ics free wins too much.

 

[Kimidori]

What characters invalidate other characters on what currently legal stages?

I won't go too in depth, but it's kind of obvious.

Any ground dominant character (such as Ice Climbers, Diddy Kong, etc.) does not perform well at all on Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, and sometimes even Frigate. Any Aerial dominant character (such as Jigglypuff, D3, hell even Peach) does not perform very well on stages like Castle Siege, a stage almost completely favoring ground characters. Or even Delfino which almost totally favors Meta Knight with its mix of platforms everywhere, and even being able to rise up through the bottom.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Kimi, why do you act like some of the legal stages just hand out free wins? Because they rarely do unless the mu sucks to begin with, and in those other cases there are stage bans so yeah.

Also ban fd, it gives ics free wins too much.

This is exactly it. We ar discussing banning these stages because the only characters able to combat mk don't do good on them. Fd is easily just as polarizing and has just as great influence on the outcome as rainbow cruise but it helps keep mk in check so we don't care. This is a blantent double standard just to keep mk legal.

 

[Steam]

I won't go too in depth, but it's kind of obvious.

Any ground dominant character (such as Ice Climbers, Diddy Kong, etc.) does not perform well at all on Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, and sometimes even Frigate. Any Aerial dominant character (such as Jigglypuff, D3, hell even Peach) does not perform very well on stages like Castle Siege, a stage almost completely favoring ground characters. Or even Delfino which almost totally favors Meta Knight with its mix of platforms everywhere, and even being able to rise up through the bottom.

Castle siege isn't that ground based though. If you want real ground based stages then look at fd and sv.

But it's also not obvious to me at all. CPs grant sligt advantages.

 

[Kimidori]

Kimi, why do you act like some of the legal stages just hand out free wins? Because they rarely do unless the mu sucks to begin with, and in those other cases there are stage bans so yeah.

Also ban fd, it gives ics free wins too much.

You misunderstood what I said. Stages don't hand out free wins, obviously. They just change the match so much as to the point of being able to turn the match around. For instance, Diddy Kong used to run even with Meta Knight, right? Well, Meta Knight is able to abuse Rainbow cruise and/or Brinstar where half of Diddy's assets (Bananas mostly) are gone. Just gone with the wind like nothing happened.

IC's don't at all get a free win on FD. They will do well on any stage with regular platforms or a still flat area. Which is pretty much every stage except for a couple. It's just the character they are. But it's not just the character MK is. He can run just fine with the rest of the cast on neutral stages, but on stages like Rainbow Cruise he has an advantage on over half the characters in the game. There are characters who can beat IC's on FD (Specifically ones that are good at splitting them up, even heavyweights are good against IC's sometimes.). There are not any characters that have an advantage over Meta Knight, and giving him stage advantage is breaking him even more.

 

[Steam]

Yeah, mk deserves Cps just like all the other characters. He's only so good on them because of how good he is to begin with... Keep in mine both games 1 and 3 in a set will be played on one of mk's worst stages... So when he's on a good stage for him he'll seem soooooo much better

 

[Exceladon City]

Stages don't hand out free wins, obviously.

I dunno, I played All Brawl and I got against on .


Jus saiyan.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I dunno, I played All Brawl and I got against on .


Jus saiyan.

Hence the ban of permanent walk offs. It over centralizes the game even match ups that aren't that polar to begin with.

 

[Kimidori]

Yeah, mk deserves Cps just like all the other characters. He's only so good on them because of how good he is to begin with... Keep in mine both games 1 and 3 in a set will be played on one of mk's worst stages... So when he's on a good stage for him he'll seem soooooo much better

That's the thing. MK doesn't have any "worst stages". He has stages he's not the best on, but he's still really good. After that he has stages that just give him huge advantages over other characters.

"So when he's on a good stage for him he'll seem soooooo much better"
Umm, you're proving my point. He's only broken on the stages he has total advantages on. Those stages should've been removed to start with. What's wrong with having 6 stages, 3 give slight advantages to Aerial characters and 3 give slight advantages to ground characters? I'd say: SV, BF, FD, Lylat, Frigate, and Yoshi's Island. Hell, we could even throw in Pokemon Stadium 1.

 

[Conviction]

Hence the ban of permanent walk offs. It over centralizes the game even match ups that aren't that polar to begin with.

1/3 Ban Castle Siege?

 

[C.J.]

What's wrong with having 6 stages, 3 give slight advantages to Aerial characters and 3 give slight advantages to ground characters? I'd say: SV, BF, FD, Lylat, Frigate, and Yoshi's Island. Hell, we could even throw in Pokemon Stadium 1.

SV, FD, Lylat, YI, and PS1 are all VERY ground based stages...

 

[Kimidori]

SV, FD, Lylat, YI, and PS1 are all VERY ground based stages...

Well duh, I said SV and FD would be for ground characters. Lylat isn't very ground based. It has a slanted ground and slanted platforms. YI has just plain slanted everything, ground, platforms, not to mention the ground part goes all over the place. And PS1 shifts, so ground characters don't have that much of an advantage. Also, SV has a moving platform, and does not at all belittle aerial characters.

 

[DeLux]

Is Kimidori an ICs main?

 

[Steam]

That's the thing. MK doesn't have any "worst stages". He has stages he's not the best on, but he's still really good. After that he has stages that just give him huge advantages over other characters.

"So when he's on a good stage for him he'll seem soooooo much better"
Umm, you're proving my point. He's only broken on the stages he has total advantages on. Those stages should've been removed to start with. What's wrong with having 6 stages, 3 give slight advantages to Aerial characters and 3 give slight advantages to ground characters? I'd say: SV, BF, FD, Lylat, Frigate, and Yoshi's Island. Hell, we could even throw in Pokemon Stadium 1.

Mk does have worst stages. Aka the ground based ones. He's still really good on them overall but they're still his worst. And yeah he's "broken" on aerial stages because he's pretty borderline to begin with. It would be kinda stupid to do away with half the stages (and dramatically change every matchup in the game) to keep mk balanced when you could just ban the bat

 

[Kimidori]

Is Kimidori an ICs main?

Off topic, but I'm thinking about it. But either way, it doesn't bias my opinion on the ban. Actually, I almost went all Pikachu or all Peach recently. But that doesn't matter.

 

[Kimidori]

Mk does have worst stages. Aka the ground based ones. He's still really good on them overall but they're still his worst. And yeah he's "broken" on aerial stages because he's pretty borderline to begin with. It would be kinda stupid to do away with half the stages (and dramatically change every matchup in the game) to keep mk balanced when you could just ban the bat

I've said it many times before, I'll say it again. Meta Knight or no Meta Knight, something has to be done about these ******** stages. Of course they're his worse stages, but even on SV he's great. But he's no where near as broken as on RC or Brinstar. Goodness gracious, realize this already.

Edit: oops, I double posted didn't I.

 

[DeLux]

Based on how this community thinks, with that stagelist, we'd end up with MK AND ICs being banned lol

MK for all the reasons the decision was made leading up to Apex.
ICs for being broken via FD stage gimmick along with dominating the other stages.

It just seemed like something an IC main would advocate lol

 

[Kimidori]

Based on how this community thinks, with that stagelist, we'd end up with MK AND ICs being banned lol

MK for all the reasons the decision was made leading up to Apex.
ICs for being broken via FD stage gimmick along with dominating the other stages.

It just seemed like something an IC main would advocate lol

Why are they banning characters over stages in the first place, anyway?

 

[Strong Badam]

>mk without LGL is broken
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Joyf8KKdg4

but no, we just kinda banned it after it happened once like with everything else in this scrubby community. kind of surprised we didn't ban IC's/DDD's infinites, though I'm glad we didn't.

 

[DeLux]

Why are they banning characters over stages in the first place, anyway?

????

You just advocated banning 7/13 legal Unity stages.

The 5/6 you have remaining are dominated by ICs. Frigate is not a bad stage for ICs. If certain characters CP me to Frigate, I think of it like a birthday gift given even other non-RC/Brinstar alternatives.

You ask why they are banning characters over stages?

Because if you banned the stages dominated by ICs, you'd have 0 legal stages left. Or I guess just one.

Every match should now be played on Frigate?

 

[Strong Badam]

but delux there's no telling how ICs would perform unless you do testing you're just speculating

 

[DeLux]

Strong Bad, testing aside. We already saw what happens to ICs. I remember the lessons pathways taught me all too well ><

 

[Strong Badam]

so your sample size is at a tourney where you're the best player even if RC/Brinstar/etc. are legal, where nothing close to top level play is exhibited?

 

[DeLux]

Obviously I wouldn't be against testing stuff, but I'm 99% sure that ICs dominance on that stagelist without MK would eclipse the dominance exhibited by MK in the current stagelist/cp process.

I'd bet on that at least if testing did occur

 

[Strong Badam]

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang he's 99% sure

 

[DeLux]

1% being I'm debating quitting IC's and all the top IC players are also debating quitting so I might not be there to make sure ICs dominate

 

[Black Mantis]

1/3 Ban Castle Siege?

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

 

[Cassio]

ICs have two games to show their dominance with or without those stages banned though. If ICs are broken in the way you imply then youd need a massive starter list to fix it. If were going to add things to fix the game, then turn items on and fix everything.

 

[Black Mantis]

>mk without LGL is broken
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Joyf8KKdg4

not every character can take advantage of this
like Ganon >__>

 

[DeLux]

ICs have two games to show their dominance with or without those stages banned though. If ICs are broken in the way you imply then youd need a massive starter list to fix it. If were going to add things to fix the game, then turn items on and fix everything.

Thus why I'm an advocate of dropping the distinction between starter and counterpick, but have been one of the stronger advocates of a conservative legal stagelist ><

However there is a line to be drawn between conservative via value criteria evaluation of stages and absurdly small to the point of being inconsistent imo

 

[Steam]

I've said it many times before, I'll say it again. Meta Knight or no Meta Knight, something has to be done about these ******** stages. Of course they're his worse stages, but even on SV he's great. But he's no where near as broken as on RC or Brinstar. Goodness gracious, realize this already.

Edit: oops, I double posted didn't I.

But mk is the sole reason those stages are ********... It's mk's fault, not the stages'. Lol

@sb- doing that is extremely risky and you have predict his uair perfectly as well. It's not a good solution.

 

[Kimidori]

But mk is the sole reason those stages are ********... It's mk's fault, not the stages'. Lol

@sb- doing that is extremely risky and you have predict his uair perfectly as well. It's not a good solution.

You're right about it not being the stages fault. But guess what, it's not MK's fault either. It's not his fault so many characters suck on some stages. It's our fault for keeping them on in the first place. I mean really, why do we have over 10 stages in Brawl, most of which give advantages, then only 6 stages in Melee, most of which are pretty damn equal?